PDA

View Full Version : attacking a streaker .. again



crossref
26-04-15, 17:04
This time it's Chris Hala'ufia

Surely this amounts to assault ?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7mSBillmDo

Fatboy_Ginge
26-04-15, 17:04
Errrrmmm Nah... Streaker shouldn't be there and by entering the field of play in this manner takes his life in his hands (shame he didn't use his hands for something else... )

Deserves everything he gets.

crossref
26-04-15, 19:04
Errrrmmm Nah... Streaker shouldn't be there and by entering the field of play in this manner takes his life in his hands (shame he didn't use his hands for something else... )

Deserves everything he gets.

yes well that's clearly not the case. What if a player tackled him., stamped on his knee, gouged his eyes and banged his head on the floor until he lost consciousness...

the point is : the response to a streaker has to be reasonable. Was that?

didds
26-04-15, 20:04
I woulld suggest given that stewards are employed to deal with this and the player was not in fear of his own personal safety...
probably not!

IANAL!

didds

Dan_A
27-04-15, 12:04
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-3055603/Bad-boy-Chris-Hala-ufia-slammed-head-stricken-opponent-turf-minutes-flattening-streaker-flying-tackle.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490

This has footage of the "shoulder charge" plus afters that led to the red card.

Just out of interest, I don't see this as a "no-arm" shoulder charge. High and dangerous so certainly a red, but not in my book a shoulder charge??

And the afters are pretty sickening.

Browner
29-04-15, 15:04
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-3055603/Bad-boy-Chris-Hala-ufia-slammed-head-stricken-opponent-turf-minutes-flattening-streaker-flying-tackle.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490

This has footage of the "shoulder charge" plus afters that led to the red card.

Just out of interest, I don't see this as a "no-arm" shoulder charge. High and dangerous so certainly a red, but not in my book a shoulder charge??
.
http://www.rugbyonslaught.com/2015/04/chris-halaufia-follows-up-huge-shot-by.html


Dangerous charging. A player must not charge or knock down an opponent carrying the ball without trying to grasp that player.

IMO there was no C&O 'grasp' attempted, instead it was a RL style 'shoulder smash' , the like of which are contributing to the concussions in this code.

Good decision by the officials, rid the code of these 'car crashes' !!!

Lee Lifeson-Peart
29-04-15, 16:04
IMO there was no C&O 'grasp' attempted, instead it was a RL style 'shoulder smash' , the like of which are contributing to the concussions in this code.



RL style "shoulder smashes" (without grasping the player) have been outlawed in RL for 2 years or so.

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story eh? :biggrin:

Browner
29-04-15, 16:04
RL style "shoulder smashes" (without grasping the player) have been outlawed in RL for 2 years or so.

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story eh? :biggrin:

So are you saying they didn't emanate from RL?, I think that style of 'hit' is born from your hit!smash code, and is trying to pollute union!
:shrug:

Lee Lifeson-Peart
29-04-15, 16:04
So are you saying they didn't emanate from RL?, I think that style of 'hit' is born from your hit!smash code, and is trying to pollute union!
:shrug:

In the 20 years since professionalism and the willingness to accept, by RU, that RL coaches know/knew how to coach defence far better than any RU coach at the time then defence was always going to becomes a specialism in RU. That defence specialism mantle has been carried on for 20 years now and not exclusively by ex RL players/coaches. It is fairly obvious (to me) that stopping a bloke running straight at an opponent will be addressed in a similar way by either code given the common need to stop the player and prevent the offload.

I would see it as similar to "Convergent Evolution" rather than the "pollution" you seemed obsessed with (which is always accompanied by a snidy, derogatory edge IMO.)

Anyway - Edwards, Steadman, Farrell, Middleton, Ford, Mercer, Betts etc etc have generally contributed greatly to the game and to be honest if you don't like it then put on some 1980s tapes and watch Huw Davies and Jamie Salmon etc coming up in defence like a dog's hind leg before falling over in front of their opponents.

If skills and attack coaches were equally adept then perhaps we'd see defences broken down more than we do.

Your RL bashing is tiresome and generally ill informed IMO.

Browner
30-04-15, 02:04
In the 20 years since professionalism and the willingness to accept, by RU, that RL coaches know/knew how to coach defence far better than any RU coach at the time then defence was always going to becomes a specialism in RU. That defence specialism mantle has been carried on for 20 years now and not exclusively by ex RL players/coaches. It is fairly obvious (to me) that stopping a bloke running straight at an opponent will be addressed in a similar way by either code given the common need to stop the player and prevent the offload.

I would see it as similar to "Convergent Evolution" rather than the "pollution" you seemed obsessed with (which is always accompanied by a snidy, derogatory edge IMO.)

Anyway - Edwards, Steadman, Farrell, Middleton, Ford, Mercer, Betts etc etc have generally contributed greatly to the game and to be honest if you don't like it then put on some 1980s tapes and watch Huw Davies and Jamie Salmon etc coming up in defence like a dog's hind leg before falling over in front of their opponents.

If skills and attack coaches were equally adept then perhaps we'd see defences broken down more than we do.

Your RL bashing is tiresome and generally ill informed IMO.

It sounds like we agree that RL is the coaching source of these shoulder led "stop in the tracks" hits, often masquerading as tackles, but IMO they are bone shaking & concussion high-risk crashes that moreoften than not rarely gain your team possession.

Of course RL defence coaches were better, i never said they weren't, and I've long been an admirer of some of the attacking footwork & handling/offloading skills & inventive running lines you code develops.

The Elite RU game is gradually heading toward Rugby Reunited again, flat attack v flat defence lined up a few Meters apart, & it being nigh on impossible to get the ball from your opponents possession seeing repeat phases etc, and this seems to be a inevitable style convergence.

You can pack muscle onto frames as much as is humanly possible, but when two players simply crash into each other doing 20kpm ( or so each) then something has to give. It will either be bones,joints,ligaments or in the worst case it will be "trauma-induced change in mental status" or in other words "concussion"! I often wince when I see these collision/crashes happen.

If you don't agree with my assessment of the harm its doing, then that's your prerogative, but its entirely irrelevant to proclaim who has been better at coaching this 'style' the answer is obvious - those who have been doing it longer are always going to be the better practicioners.

Modern Union has improvements born from RL , but our opinions will always differ if you think these hits are improving RU. The media obsession with glamourising them is fuelling a smash hungry audience, not serving grassroots or the bodies of players IMHO.

RL & RU are set for a control arm wrestle, again, no idea when it will come, but it will & when it does Reunion will be born, of that we agree yes convergence is inevitable. Shame.

Ian_Cook
30-04-15, 06:04
You can pack muscle onto frames as much as is humanly possible, but when two players simply crash into each other doing 20kpm ( or so each) then something has to give. It will either be bones,joints,ligaments or in the worst case it will be "trauma-induced change in mental status" or in other words "concussion"! I often wince when I see these collision/crashes happen.

If you don't agree with my assessment of the harm its doing, then that's your prerogative, but its entirely irrelevant to proclaim who has been better at coaching this 'style' the answer is obvious - those who have been doing it longer are always going to be the better practicioners.

Modern Union has improvements born from RL , but our opinions will always differ if you think these hits are improving RU. The media obsession with glamourising them is fuelling a smash hungry audience, not serving grassroots or the bodies of players IMHO.

I don't know how many of you NH members actually GO to Elite level matches, but I do, and for those of you who do not, I can tell you that when two big players collide, as a spectator, you can hear the sound anywhere in the stadium and if its close to the sideline and you are there too, you can FEEL the impact.

Now, I don't care how you slice it, but that simply has to be doing some damage. Players can get concussion and suffer brain trauma without any impact to the head, simply by the way their head snaps forward and back in one of those bone-jarring hits. This occurs when the brain "sloshes" inside the cranial cavity and impacts against the inside.

This is an issue that needs to be addressed by the PTB! It won't go away, and if unchecked, it almost certainly will come back to bite the game in arse!

Lee Lifeson-Peart
30-04-15, 08:04
Modern Union has improvements born from RL , but our opinions will always differ if you think these hits are improving RU. The media obsession with glamourising them is fuelling a smash hungry audience, not serving grassroots or the bodies of players IMHO.



I never said I was a fan of "bit hits" and I, like you, do want to see players of either code suffering acute/chronic/catastrophic injuries - Lance Hohaia, NZ RL international has retired with immediate effect due to recurring concussion symptoms (you may remember him best from the SL Grand Final in October when he was punched unconscious by Ben Flower) - BUT what continues to irritate me is your tired old hobby-horse that the injuries sustained in RU are the fault of RL.

We all understand the genesis and evolution (is that an oxymoron?) of why RU at Elite level is played as it is, in term of defence, but after 20 years RU has to sort itself out and if that means more or less convergence with RL in order to ensure players health then so be it. Not that I would like to see RU's unique characteristics be diluted to the point the games ceased to be significantly different.

I don't think we are miles apart in our concern for players' safety, I just get irritated by your (perceived) assertion that RU was great and now it's not and it's all RL's fault.

OB..
30-04-15, 11:04
I don't know how many of you NH members actually GO to Elite level matches, but I do, and for those of you who do not, I can tell you that when two big players collide, as a spectator, you can hear the sound anywhere in the stadium and if its close to the sideline and you are there too, you can FEEL the impact.Many years ago (1981?) I was at Twickenham for England v Scotland, sitting in the front of the East stand. Bruce Hay tried to come round the blind side of a scrum and was stopped dead by Steve Smith. As you say, I could feel the clash. However they both just got up and walked away, none the worse.

Today's players are bigger and stronger, and such clashes are more frequent, but let's not get carried away. A priority is to ensure tackles are legal, but there will still be hard hits.

Browner
30-04-15, 12:04
I never said I was a fan of "bit hits" and I, like you, do want to see players of either code suffering acute/chronic/catastrophic injuries - Lance Hohaia, NZ RL international has retired with immediate effect due to recurring concussion symptoms (you may remember him best from the SL Grand Final in October when he was punched unconscious by Ben Flower) - BUT what continues to irritate me is your tired old hobby-horse that the injuries sustained in RU are the fault of RL.

We all understand the genesis and evolution (is that an oxymoron?) of why RU at Elite level is played as it is, in term of defence, but after 20 years RU has to sort itself out and if that means more or less convergence with RL in order to ensure players health then so be it. Not that I would like to see RU's unique characteristics be diluted to the point the games ceased to be significantly different.

I don't think we are miles apart in our concern for players' safety, I just get irritated by your (perceived) assertion that RU was great and now it's not and it's all RL's fault.

Your irritation is obvious, as is your unblinkered defence of the RL code, but that aside yes, it is my belief that RU was a better code many reasons on & off the pitch, IMO much of the 'chess on grass' skill and craft of RU has been replaced by the bludgeoning collision crash 'style' of RL. Its a shame, and whilst I maybe a romantic ,at least I can't ever be accused of silent acceptance.

crossref
30-04-15, 12:04
it is my belief that RU was a better code many reasons on & off the pitch, IMO much of the 'chess on grass' skill and craft of RU has been replaced by the bludgeoning collision crash 'style' of RL. Its a shame.

but if that's true, whose fault is it? It would be the fault of the IRB who control the Laws of rugby.

RU has control of its own destiny.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
30-04-15, 13:04
but if that's true, whose fault is it? It would be the fault of the IRB who control the Laws of rugby.

RU has control of its own destiny.

Ho ho crossref has distilled my thoughts into two lines - if only I could be as concise my blood pressure would be 120/80 (again).

Right back to the piss taking.

OB..
30-04-15, 19:04
at least I can't ever be accused of silent acceptance.Nobody would ever accuse you of keeping silent.

matty1194
30-04-15, 21:04
I would suggest given that stewards are employed to deal with this and the player was not in fear of his own personal safety...
probably not!

Come on Didds, lets be honest here, how many times have we and I mean all members here been at a ground watching rugby and you look at the nearest steward and think,"wow, what could he/she do"

I have a number of good friends who work for various security companies including G4S who provide the security at Murrayfield and they are in no way fit enough to chase down a streaker or pitch invader and some have been told to not bother chasing people across the pitch as its highly likely the invading person gets bored and runs for the safety of the stands in the hope of getting away.

A few years ago at Scotstoun for the 7s, the pitchside stewards were all young fit lads with boots on, however someone complained that it was discrimination and they were quietly removed the next time. :shrug:

crossref
12-05-15, 13:05
not a streaker, and not rugby -- but this incident certainly pushes everything up a notch or two : pitch invader gets kicked in the head

hands up anyone who thinks he deserved that?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOufaBeRmiA

Browner
12-05-15, 14:05
This looks like two opposing groups are squaring up for a scrap , not sure its mid match? Looks more like after the final whistle? & more akin to footy hooliganism , which isn't new.

Hopefully the ref was off the pitch by then.

didds
12-05-15, 14:05
ISTR a steward at Headingley back in the 90s (?) who broke a spectators arm when apprehending him? all sorts of too-doo about it.

A basic tenet of English law if that you cannot use disproportionate force. The streaker was certainly no obvious threat. Ok the stewards may be unfit, but I'd wager even if there was a danger the average professional back could outrun some pissed up streaker.

Its assault. And idiotic. Ask Terry Alderman about the wisdom of trying to catch pitch invaders.

didds