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Browner
27-04-15, 16:04
In this clip you can feel the intensity & the significance gradually rise, and the passionate French certainly do showcase their enthusiastic support etc

http://www.rugbydump.com/2015/04/4248/la-rochelle-defeat-champions-toulon-32-29-with-dramatic-try-in-the-final-play

This referee clearly had his work cut out overseeing that conclusion, but the bit that had me shaking my head is Gorgodze's (accidental my ar$e it was !) Bumping into the referee after his YC. See from 4.02 on vid clock.

An accidental ( yeah right!) nudge has happened to me recently, and Surely the 'Pro game needs to make a public example of this (poorly disguised) unacceptable ref contact.

???

MrQeu
27-04-15, 18:04
I thought the very same when I first saw the clip

Fatboy_Ginge
27-04-15, 18:04
I'd have had the red out for that. He's just been YC'd and then walks into me. Sorry but you're off permanently.

Dixie
27-04-15, 20:04
I'd have had the red out for that. He's just been YC'd and then walks into me. Sorry but you're off permanently. Not worth the grief. No point getting a reputation as precious.

4eyesbetter
27-04-15, 21:04
I always when getting rid of someone ensure that my body position is such that the player will be walking away from me, for this reason among others.

Ian_Cook
28-04-15, 00:04
For mine that is

1. Blatant, intentional referee contact.

2. :noyc: turns into :norc:

3. A lengthy suspension.

But the FFR is a weak-kneed organisation that is intimidated by the LNR, so it won't happen.

Not Kurt Weaver
28-04-15, 02:04
Not worth the grief. No point getting a reputation as precious.

Agree, nothing to see here, nothing

Ian_Cook
28-04-15, 04:04
Not worth the grief. No point getting a reputation as precious.

Dixie, that will depend on your tolerance level. I have ZERO tolerance for players making any contact (other than purely accidental during gameplay). As soon as you allow any contact in a situation like this, you open the door for individual judgement about how much is too much. It muddies the waters by turning an objection situation into a subjective one.

I saw this as an ideal opportunity to make a statement. RC or YC is going to make no difference to the game itself since there was less than 10 min left, but RC sends a clear message that intentionally bumping the referee will not be tolerated. The problems that now exist in Wendyball started just like this, a little bump here, a little nudge there. It wasn't dealt with, and now we have players surrounding the referee, waving their arms around, screaming at him and sometimes pushing and shoving him.

Better to draw the line at ZERO.


ETA: I sent several players off during my time as an active referee. I don;t remember them all, but I do remeber that two of them were for referee contact; one was for a player who put his hand on the back of my shoulder and shoved me, another was for bumping into me after I had just given him a verbal warning. In both cases, as I recall, the coaches totally agree with what I did.

Dickie E
28-04-15, 06:04
Agree, nothing to see here, nothing

Agree

Lee Lifeson-Peart
28-04-15, 10:04
Not worth the grief. No point getting a reputation as precious.


Agree, nothing to see here, nothing


Agree

Agree(s)

Phil E
28-04-15, 12:04
Agree(s)

+1



msf

Browner
28-04-15, 12:04
Clearly good practice is never to be in a players 'post YC pathway' , but even that mindset is almost apologetic for player aggression toward officials.

To all those that don't see Gorgodze's actions as needing sanctioning, you are IMO indirectly permitting that behaviour and your acceptance of it takes this subject beyond the 'thin edge of the wedge' or Zero tolerance.

The next time you are alone on a pitch refereeing a "fiesty" fixture and a player accidentally on purpose bumps/runs into you, remember this example as being the where your assailant possibly saw a high profile Pro Player do similar , and get both unpunished or .. excused for it !

At the wider end of the 'testosterone fuelled-aggression 'wedge' accidentals!!.....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HKVG1c-UZ6I

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k5bex8rJ8Yk

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=djJOkjeoE5g

If you believe that Gorgodze's 'bumping' wasnt deliberate , the 'post match sanctioning' simply must be you call. To do otherwise is ... referee protection negligence.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
28-04-15, 13:04
Clearly good practice is never to be in a players 'post YC pathway' , but even that mindset is almost apologetic for player aggression toward officials.

To all those that don't see Gorgodze's actions as needing sanctioning, you are IMO indirectly permitting that behaviour and your acceptance of it takes this subject beyond the 'thin edge of the wedge' or Zero tolerance.

The next time you are alone on a pitch refereeing a "fiesty" fixture and a player accidentally on purpose bumps/runs into you, remember this example as being the where your assailant possibly saw a high profile Pro Player do similar , and get both unpunished or .. excused for it !

At the wider end of the 'testosterone fuelled-aggression 'wedge' accidentals!!.....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HKVG1c-UZ6I

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k5bex8rJ8Yk

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=djJOkjeoE5g

If you believe that Gorgodze's 'bumping' wasnt deliberate , the 'post match sanctioning' simply must be you call. To do otherwise is ... referee protection negligence.

I haven't watched the youtublets so I will reserve judgement 'til I have.

That said this strikes me as another of your "thin end of the wedge/slippery slope" posts such as the MUFC v Quins photo, the French girl hoofing the ball at the AR, Savea and Etzebeth's slapathon etc.

God forbid our game decends into the mire Association Football inhabits but I think you're overreacting in thinking these individual incidents are sounding the death knell of the game as we know it.

3218

OB..
28-04-15, 13:04
To all those that don't see Gorgodze's actions as needing sanctioning, you are IMO indirectly permitting that behaviour and your acceptance of it takes this subject beyond the 'thin edge of the wedge' or Zero tolerance.The thin end of the wedge is usually a poor argument - life is largely built on compromise. Zero tolerance likewise - it leads to over-reaction. If a player taps you on the shoulder to draw your attention to an injury when you are calling a scrum?

Phil E
28-04-15, 13:04
+1 again..........or should that be +2?

Browner
28-04-15, 13:04
If a player taps you on the shoulder to draw your attention to an injury when you are calling a scrum?

Aggression tolerance is being judged , not simply contact tolerance.

Post match citing exists to collect things that were missed during the match. This was.

Browner
28-04-15, 13:04
So, do any of the 'nothing here'ists, think that Gorgodze accidentally bumped the referee ???

If not, then is it the degree of bumping that you're accepting?, and if so when will that degree tip your balance and how will grassroots players deferentiate the difference when they see such referee disrespect?

Dixie
28-04-15, 13:04
So, do any of the 'nothing here'ists, think that Gorgodze accidentally bumped the referee ???

If not, then is it the degree of bumping that you're accepting?, and if so when will that degree tip your balance and how will grassroots players deferentiate the difference when they see such referee disrespect?

The ref walked across the player's chosen route off. The player could probably have taken evasive action. The bump was trivial. 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. If you want to take a stand on referee contact (and I agree it is more than just important), do it when there is clearly something to stand against. The second worst outcome of a disciplinary for ref contact would be: sending off sufficient. The worst would be red card rescinded due to poor judgement by the referee.

Phil E
28-04-15, 13:04
FFS!

What Dixie said.

The player goes to walk off.
The Ref takes a step to his right, inadvertently stepping into the players path.
The player half turns sideways to get past him (as you do in a corridor) and brushes past the referee in doing so.

The ref thought nothing of it, neither do I.

Pick your battles carefully.....this isn't one of them.......unless you want to look like a prat. We are facilitators, NOT policemen.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
28-04-15, 15:04
So, do any of the 'nothing here'ists, think that Gorgodze accidentally bumped the referee ???



Yes...

RobLev
28-04-15, 15:04
The ref walked across the player's chosen route off. The player could probably have taken evasive action...The second worst outcome of a disciplinary for ref contact would be: sending off sufficient. The worst would be red card rescinded due to poor judgement by the referee

The ref YC'd Red8; he then turned his back on the player to walk to make the mark for the PK. The player's direct route off was at 90 degrees, to the bench at the half-way line. Instead he chose to follow the referee and make a comment to him, as a result of which the referee stopped and turned half toward him, and Red8 simply carried on walking and into him. He ended up at the back corner of the in-goal area (you can see the ref gesturing to him to go back to his bench at 4:29).

Isn't the rule that when sent off/sin binned you walk directly to the bench, you do not pass Go and you don't collect 200? The ref clearly assumed that he would follow that rule. To criticise him for walking across the player's path in those circumstances is somewhat unfair.

Phil E
28-04-15, 15:04
To criticise him for walking across the player's path in those circumstances is somewhat unfair.

I haven't seen anyone criticise the referee?

OB..
28-04-15, 15:04
So, do any of the 'nothing here'ists, think that Gorgodze accidentally bumped the referee ???

If not, then is it the degree of bumping that you're accepting?, and if so when will that degree tip your balance and how will grassroots players deferentiate the difference when they see such referee disrespect?How long is a piece of string? In this case it is too short to be worth bothering about.

TheBFG
28-04-15, 16:04
Clearly good practice is never to be in a players 'post YC pathway' , but even that mindset is almost apologetic for player aggression toward officials.

To all those that don't see Gorgodze's actions as needing sanctioning, you are IMO indirectly permitting that behaviour and your acceptance of it takes this subject beyond the 'thin edge of the wedge' or Zero tolerance.

The next time you are alone on a pitch refereeing a "fiesty" fixture and a player accidentally on purpose bumps/runs into you, remember this example as being the where your assailant possibly saw a high profile Pro Player do similar , and get both unpunished or .. excused for it !

At the wider end of the 'testosterone fuelled-aggression 'wedge' accidentals!!.....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HKVG1c-UZ6I

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=k5bex8rJ8Yk

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=djJOkjeoE5g

If you believe that Gorgodze's 'bumping' wasnt deliberate , the 'post match sanctioning' simply must be you call. To do otherwise is ... referee protection negligence.

1st clip, he's been watching too much football (oh wait!)

as for the other two clips, that's an issue for the police not the disciplinary committee!

Browner you like me need more than a nudge to know if it's for real or not :wink: in the OP I think it's no more than wrong place wrong time, that said I would deal with anyone that makes me have to take a side ways step to keep my balance!

SimonSmith
28-04-15, 17:04
The ref YC'd Red8; he then turned his back on the player to walk to make the mark for the PK. The player's direct route off was at 90 degrees, to the bench at the half-way line. Instead he chose to follow the referee and make a comment to him, as a result of which the referee stopped and turned half toward him, and Red8 simply carried on walking and into him. He ended up at the back corner of the in-goal area (you can see the ref gesturing to him to go back to his bench at 4:29).

Isn't the rule that when sent off/sin binned you walk directly to the bench, you do not pass Go and you don't collect 200? The ref clearly assumed that he would follow that rule. To criticise him for walking across the player's path in those circumstances is somewhat unfair.

Inside the last 10 minutes simply heading for the tunnel?

The game getting soft on referee contact?

RFU judgments suggest otherwise

beckett50
28-04-15, 17:04
An accidental ( yeah right!) nudge has happened to me recently, and Surely the 'Pro game needs to make a public example of this (poorly disguised) unacceptable ref contact.

???

Yes, an example needs to be set.

However, I always follow the Wayne Barnes "Show and walk" routine when issuing a card, of any colour.

ddjamo
28-04-15, 20:04
I haven't seen anyone criticise the referee?

the thread is on another subject but I would definitely say that the referee had the player, the mark and the player's touch line in the wrong places when he unsheathed his yellow card. a bit too much conversation too.

only watched it once - but that was my first impression from the video. no issues with the bump. the ref caused it.

RobLev
28-04-15, 20:04
Inside the last 10 minutes simply heading for the tunnel?

...

That may be the case, although (i) where was the tunnel?, (ii) the ref's reaction, gesturing him to the half-way line, suggested he wanted otherwise and (iii) (and most relevantly) the player may have decided to take an early bath, but having carded him the ref clearly expected him to follow normal protocol, and it was the player not doing so, while the ref's back was turned, that put the ref in the way.

RobLev
28-04-15, 20:04
I haven't seen anyone criticise the referee?

Dixie did in the passage I quoted:


The ref walked across the player's chosen route off. The player could probably have taken evasive action...

implies that the ref caused the collision.

And I don't know whether the "poor judgment" that he refers to in this sentence:


The worst would be red card rescinded due to poor judgement by the referee

refers to poor judgment in RC'ing, or in his part in the collision.

4eyesbetter
28-04-15, 22:04
Clearly good practice is never to be in a players 'post YC pathway' , but even that mindset is almost apologetic for player aggression toward officials.


The main reason I do it, incidentally, is that I once saw a sent off player decide he wasn't going to go quietly, so started swinging at everything on two legs for about ten seconds. Referee 40 yards away with his back to it writing something down, completely oblivious until after his mates had got him back under control. Disciplined players are walking flashpoints and should never be let out of your line of sight until they've gone to where they should be.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
29-04-15, 08:04
The main reason I do it, incidentally, is that I once saw a sent off player decide he wasn't going to go quietly, so started swinging at everything on two legs for about ten seconds. Referee 40 yards away with his back to it writing something down, completely oblivious until after his mates had got him back under control. Disciplined players are walking flashpoints and should never be let out of your line of sight until they've gone to where they should be.

Perhaps if you lot dished the cards out a bit more often it wouldn't come as such a shock when you do.:biggrin:

4eyesbetter
29-04-15, 10:04
I was with my mate, who was assessing a soccer referee, at the time.

RobLev
29-04-15, 13:04
the thread is on another subject but I would definitely say that the referee had the player, the mark and the player's touch line in the wrong places when he unsheathed his yellow card. a bit too much conversation too.

only watched it once - but that was my first impression from the video. no issues with the bump. the ref caused it.

Even if you get the player, the mark and the player's touch line in the right place (as here), it all goes Pete Tong when the player chooses to walk 90 degrees the wrong direction. Here, the tunnel, and his bench, were both at half-way, but he chose to follow the referee and ended up at the back corner of in-goal. How then did the ref cause the bump?

Browner
29-04-15, 14:04
Gorgodze walks after the referee, giving verbal dissent 'post YC award' , therefore the responsibility for bumping the referee this way lies with him, excusing him and blaming the referee is poor IMO.