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Pegleg
22-05-15, 08:05
Here are the appointments:
Glasgow Warriors (SRU) v Ulster (IRFU)

Referee: George Clancy (IRFU)
Assistant Referees: John Lacey, Dudley Phillips (both IRFU)
Citing Commissioner: Gwyn Bowden (WRU)
TMO: Seamus Flannery (IRFU)

Munster (IRFU) v Ospreys (WRU)

Referee: Nigel Owens (WRU)
Assistant Referees: Leighton Hodges, Ian Davies (both WRU)
Citing Commissioner: TBC (SRU)
TMO: Gareth Simmonds (WRU)

Are the appointments above healthy?
Refs appointed from the Union of the away sides for semi finals of a "major" competition. In the case of the Glasgow game the ref being employed by the same company as the visiting side. So, in effect, he is a colleague of the visiting players!

I understand that Owens is, arguably, the best referee in the Pro 12. I accept that there is no referee from either Scotland or Italy who is remotely close to such an appointment. However, do these appointments raise big questions in the minds of many in the game ( even if the players themselves are happy with them) of potential self interest / bias, whether on a conscious or subconscious level.

talbazar
22-05-15, 08:05
Don't you believe Clancy or Owens are professional enough to be impartial?

Furthermore, this kind of situation happens the entire season, why would it be different now?

Ronald
22-05-15, 09:05
We are currently sitting with the same issue in Super 15. There has been a few games where it seemed that a referee from the same union as one of the teams were "harsher" on the away team than on the team from his union or country. SANZAR's answer has always been that in consultation with the franchises, they decided that the best available referee gets appointed to a match, irrespective of the country or union he comes from. The other problem for SANZAR is obviously the costs involved with neutral referees, because of the distances involved. I think that we as refs should be professional enough (even if we are the weekend warriors) that we can ref even our own school or club so that no fingers can be pointed at us.

Pegleg
22-05-15, 10:05
Personally I would apoint the best referee to any game. Subject to development issues etc. However, the majority (I suspect) of the rugby fraternity will disagree (I'm sure the majority of us, as referees, would take some offence at being doubted in this way but Ceaser's wife and all that). There will always be questions:Take the 2007 RWC final. Imagine that ref was from the RSA or the TMO was. the "debate" about the Cueto try would be never ending.

The situation here is muddied by Clancy being an IRFU employee as are Ulster. This make things more questionable than if he just happened to be Irish.

Yes the situation occurs often in the Pro 12. The basic rule is the away team "brings the ref". It is far from ideal and has helped create questions as to the integrity of the league. Sadly the fact that the Scots and the Italians are so far behind the Irish and the Welsh referees in terms of ability just makes the problem worse.

Why does it matter more at the semifinal and final stage of a tournament? I'd have thought the answer to that is blindingly obvious.

As to Clancy I don't doubt his honesty. I do however, and have posted here before on the subject, doubt his ability at this level. In short, I don't rate him as an "elite" referee. The concern then makes the posibility of a backlash more likely if a "dubious" call should be involved in the winning try for Ulster.

Gracie
23-05-15, 00:05
He had a poor game as Ulster TV noted [I][I]"And the Irish referee made himself even less popular with the home crowd when he let Craig Gilroy off scot-free, despite the Ulster wing being guilty of a blatant bodycheck as Matawalu looked to latch on to Russell's kick into the corner." They didn't comment on the clear arial infringement that called for a Yellow. I don't question his integrity, but rather his ability - too many apparently obvious decisions seem to pass him by.

Ian_Cook
23-05-15, 05:05
Don't you believe Clancy or Owens are professional enough to be impartial?

Furthermore, this kind of situation happens the entire season, why would it be different now?

I have a problem with non-neutral referee, not because I feel the referees might not be impartial, but because they are not seen to be impartial by the fans. We have the same problem with referees from one country controlling matches between teams from his own country and another country, e.g. last night, Chris Pollock refereed Chiefs v Bulls.

For 90% of matches it works fine, but when there is controversy, and it goes in favour of the team from the same country as the referee, the his integrity is questioned, e.g. Rohan Hoffman last week (Waratahs v Sharks).

I just question the necessity for SANZAR to set itself up to be open for this type of criticism.

Browner
23-05-15, 12:05
Personally I would apoint the best referee to any game. Subject to development issues etc. However, the majority (I suspect) of the rugby fraternity will disagree (I'm sure the majority of us, as referees, would take some offence at being doubted in this way but Ceaser's wife and all that). There will always be questions:Take the 2007 RWC final. Imagine that ref was from the RSA or the TMO was. the "debate" about the Cueto try would be never ending.

The situation here is muddied by Clancy being an IRFU employee as are Ulster. This make things more questionable than if he just happened to be Irish.

Yes the situation occurs often in the Pro 12. The basic rule is the away team "brings the ref". It is far from ideal and has helped create questions as to the integrity of the league. Sadly the fact that the Scots and the Italians are so far behind the Irish and the Welsh referees in terms of ability just makes the problem worse.

Why does it matter more at the semifinal and final stage of a tournament? I'd have thought the answer to that is blindingly obvious.

As to Clancy I don't doubt his honesty. I do however, and have posted here before on the subject, doubt his ability at this level. In short, I don't rate him as an "elite" referee. The concern then makes the posibility of a backlash more likely if a "dubious" call should be involved in the winning try for Ulster.



But the whole thrust of your postings on this subject are doubting referee ability to remain 100% impartial , and imo that is offensive to rugby referees per se :nono:

Pegleg
23-05-15, 13:05
I have a problem with non-neutral referee, not because I feel the referees might not be impartial, but because they are not seen to be impartial by the fans. We have the same problem with referees from one country controlling matches between teams from his own country and another country, e.g. last night, Chris Pollock refereed Chiefs v Bulls.

For 90% of matches it works fine, but when there is controversy, and it goes in favour of the team from the same country as the referee, the his integrity is questioned, e.g. Rohan Hoffman last week (Waratahs v Sharks).

I just question the necessity for SANZAR to set itself up to be open for this type of criticism.

My point exactly!

Pegleg
23-05-15, 13:05
But the whole thrust of your postings on this subject are doubting referee ability to remain 100% impartial , and imo that is offensive to rugby referees per se :nono:


Not at all. I suggest you read more carefully. This bit from my earlier post might help you in this: " As to Clancy I don't doubt his honesty. I do however, and have posted here before on the subject, doubt his ability at this level. In short, I don't rate him as an "elite" referee. The concern then makes the posibility of a backlash more likely if a "dubious" call should be involved in the winning try for Ulster."

Perception amongst the public etc are important. Referees, just like every other human being, are subject influence either conscious or unconscious. Why leave yourself open to any doubt?

Ian puts it more succinctly than I.

Pegleg
23-05-15, 13:05
He had a poor game as Ulster TV noted [I][I]"And the Irish referee made himself even less popular with the home crowd when he let Craig Gilroy off scot-free, despite the Ulster wing being guilty of a blatant bodycheck as Matawalu looked to latch on to Russell's kick into the corner." They didn't comment on the clear arial infringement that called for a Yellow. I don't question his integrity, but rather his ability - too many apparently obvious decisions seem to pass him by.

Totally agree with the sentiment. I would question his ability not his integrity. The public might not be as kind as you and I.

Browner
25-05-15, 11:05
Not at all. I suggest you read more carefully. This bit from my earlier post might help you in this: " As to Clancy I don't doubt his honesty. I do however, and have posted here before on the subject, doubt his ability at this level. In short, I don't rate him as an "elite" referee. The concern then makes the posibility of a backlash more likely if a "dubious" call should be involved in the winning try for Ulster."

Perception amongst the public etc are important. Referees, just like every other human being, are subject influence either conscious or unconscious. Why leave yourself open to any doubt?

Ian puts it more succinctly than I.

I did read your posts, .....specifically when you posted these three comments .... Within which you didnt appear to be questioning "his refereeing ability", more his potential irishness 'bias' :chin:



. In the case of the Glasgow game the ref being employed by the same company as the visiting side. So, in effect, he is a colleague of the visiting players!


. However, do these appointments raise big questions in the minds of many in the game ( even if the players themselves are happy with them) of potential self interest / bias, whether on a conscious or subconscious level.


. The situation here is muddied by Clancy being an IRFU employee as are Ulster. This make things more questionable than if he just happened to be Irish.

Pegleg
25-05-15, 12:05
And you still fail to understand! Or chose not to do so!

Those are reasons that supporters, reporters erc WILL make an accusation of bias and cheating. It is not ME saying that it is evidence of such activity.

Lest requote one of the comments you chose to quote from me:

"However, do these appointments raise big questions in the minds of many in the game ( even if the players themselves are happy with them) of potential self interest / bias, whether on a conscious or subconscious level."

Note "of many in the game" Not in "MY".

Why give people the chance to make such claims? There is enough pressure on officials without adding this on to it.

Incidentally there are people making exactly those claims after this weekend's games.

However back to the point. At no point did I accuse clancy of being a cheat. If a person reads my post it is clear I am stating there reasons why people are likely to take the inference that a referee could be in such a situation. If you can't see the difference, your problem!

Browner
25-05-15, 19:05
And you still fail to understand! Or chose not to do so!

Those are reasons that supporters, reporters erc WILL make an accusation of bias and cheating. It is not ME saying that it is evidence of such activity.

Lest requote one of the comments you chose to quote from me:

"However, do these appointments raise big questions in the minds of many in the game ( even if the players themselves are happy with them) of potential self interest / bias, whether on a conscious or subconscious level."

Note "of many in the game" Not in "MY".

Why give people the chance to make such claims? There is enough pressure on officials without adding this on to it.

Incidentally there are people making exactly those claims after this weekend's games.

However back to the point. At no point did I accuse clancy of being a cheat. If a person reads my post it is clear I am stating there reasons why people are likely to take the inference that a referee could be in such a situation. If you can't see the difference, your problem!

Oh I see, you were raising those concerns on behalf of everyone else, rather than for your own reasons..... Please forgive such misunderstanding peggers , talbazar appeared to read your jottings the same way as I. (?)

Anyway thats cleared that up then.

OB..
25-05-15, 19:05
Oh I see, you were raising those concerns on behalf of everyone else, rather than for your own reasons
I understood him to be pointing out that it puts the referee in an invidious position.

Dickie E
25-05-15, 20:05
Interestingly netball has the opposite problem. The best officials are from NZ & Oz and the teams/players want the best officials. However, in the interest of impartiality, lower quality officals are appointed from neutral countries.

Pegleg
25-05-15, 23:05
I understood him to be pointing out that it puts the referee in an invidious position.

Thank god some can read.

talbazar
26-05-15, 01:05
Pegleg, Ian,
Ok, I get your point of risk of misinterpretation of any "under performance" or just simple 50-50 decision going one way rather than another.
It makes sense and you both are right: some people will cry "cheat" in such a case...

My point is that the same people will cry cheat anyway (as a matter of fact, I heard French guys deciding the Owens had something against the French clubs in the EC :chin: )

So I believe this kind of appointments are a strong message saying: no matter where they're from, the best refs are appointed for the game and if some people are dumb enough to believe guys like Clancy or Owens won't bring up their best game on this kind of event, they can open another beer and keep ranting and whining... They will do so whoever is the ref anyway...

My 2 cents,
Pierre.

Ian_Cook
26-05-15, 03:05
My point is that the same people will cry cheat anyway (as a matter of fact, I heard French guys deciding the Owens had something against the French clubs in the EC :chin: )

No doubt you are correct. I even heard some Welsh "fans" saying the Alain Rolland cheated when he sent Sam Warburton off in the 2011 RWC semi against France, "because he was biased toward France due to his father being French". Go figure!

However, the point is that when people cry cheat, if the referee is not from a neutral country, and is from the country of the team that benefited from the disputed call or decision, then this lends credence, however misguided it might be, to that accusation.

Perception of neutrality is important.

Pegleg
26-05-15, 07:05
No doubt you are correct. I even heard some Welsh "fans" saying the Alain Rolland cheated when he sent Sam Warburton off in the 2011 RWC semi against France, "because he was biased toward France due to his father being French". Go figure!

However, the point is that when people cry cheat, if the referee is not from a neutral country, and is from the country of the team that benefited from the disputed call or decision, then this lends credence, however misguided it might be, to that accusation.

Perception of neutrality is important.


Spot on!

talbazar
26-05-15, 15:05
No doubt you are correct. I even heard some Welsh "fans" saying the Alain Rolland cheated when he sent Sam Warburton off in the 2011 RWC semi against France, "because he was biased toward France due to his father being French". Go figure!

However, the point is that when people cry cheat, if the referee is not from a neutral country, and is from the country of the team that benefited from the disputed call or decision, then this lends credence, however misguided it might be, to that accusation.

Perception of neutrality is important.

Agreed...

Lee Lifeson-Peart
26-05-15, 18:05
International Rugby League has had issues when Aus v Eng games are on as invariably the Aussies don't want a NZ referee (or any other nationality) doing that particular fixture. We then have Australia calling the shots as to the referee and we end up with either an Australian or Englishman with the whistle - not great either way.

NB Henry Perenara possibly the most well regarded NZ RL referee is apparently Sonny Bill William's cousin and TJ Perenara's uncle - I hear banjos accompanying the cries of cheat!!!

Dickie E
26-05-15, 20:05
or Englishman with the whistle - not great either way.



Why??

The umpire
27-05-15, 22:05
Why??
"Australian or Englishman with the whistle - not great either way. "
Was the full quote. For the reasons given throughout this read - to be above suspicion (or conspiracy theory these days)