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Ian_Cook
26-05-15, 20:05
Hartley cited for a head-butt

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/may/26/dylan-hartley-england-rugby-world-cup-cited-northampton-saracens

Honestly, if Hartley cops a big ban and misses the RWC, then IMO that will increase England's chances of winning it.

Hartley is a loose cannon with an appalling disciplinary record that almost descends to Danny Grewcockesque levels. For mine, he's a liability for any team he plays in, and the risk factor associated with having him play in a major match is not outweighed by his skills as a player.

For the record, has lack of discipline includes incidents of eye-gouging, biting and punching, as detailed here:

April 2007 - Suspended for 26 weeks for eye-gouging Wasps forwards James Haskell and Jonny O'Connor.
March 2012 - Suspended for eight weeks for biting Ireland forward Stephen Ferris in a Six Nations match.
December 2012 - Suspended for two weeks for punching Ulster hooker Rory Best in a Heineken Cup match.
May 2013 - Sent off in the Aviva Premiership final and Suspended for 11 weeks after being found guilty of verbally abusing a match official (this one caused him to miss selection for the 2013 Lions tours).
December 2014 - Sent off and suspended for three weeks for striking Matt Smith with his elbow during the Aviva Premiership match between his Northampton Saints side and Leicester Tigers.


And now, head-butting may have been added to his list. Not listed is the raft of yellow cards he has received.

Crucial
26-05-15, 21:05
He's certainly one ex kiwi we are all glad went overseas. What a complete idiot.

dave_clark
26-05-15, 22:05
in his defence, he's never lost the plot playing for england... i know, not much consolation.

although i was surprised that he wasn't at least yellow carded for his forehead tickle on saturday.

Crucial
26-05-15, 22:05
in his defence, he's never lost the plot playing for england... i know, not much consolation.

although i was surprised that he wasn't at least yellow carded for his forehead tickle on saturday.

Never been cited for losing the plot I think you mean.

I recall a forearm drop on McCaw's face off the ball that amazed everyone when he wasn't cited for it.

crossref
26-05-15, 23:05
Here is the video..
https://youtu.be/SBs-k2KULGI

Browner
27-05-15, 00:05
Hartley has an excellent record for England, and there isnt much evidence in his 60 + appearances that he cant confine his physical style to 'not retaliating' , if he can then he is a good selection IMO.

It could actually be argued that his value increases IF he contributes to winding up opponents to lose 'their' personal controls !

Many club players seem to gain additional self control powers as soon as they pull on an England Shirt & to offer a high profile example Martin Johnson didn't exactly tiptoe through a incident free club career , yet its generally accepted he also had a "value" for his country.

However, make no mistake, IF DH let's us down WHILST wearing a rose, then I'm signing the petition to banish him back to NZ ...

Dylan.....'England expects'

Anyway, perhaps he was merely unbalance Horwill-esk as he dodged Atojes late plunge :wink:

TheBFG
27-05-15, 08:05
it's hardly a head-butt, but still, wot a knob for getting cited again!

Browner
27-05-15, 10:05
it's hardly a head-butt, but still, wot a knob for getting cited again!

Agree BFG, its not uncommon to see such ' testosterone fuelled' fronting ups happen ' post try' as one set of forwards celebrated their power/dominance over their opponents by metaphorically rubbing their noses in it ( and exchanged some alpha male verbals) , my guess is most forwards ( especially our heavy arsed front row bretherin) have at some point have done similar, albeit DH definately bumped his oppo a bit to boisterously.

Remember when DH received this ,
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=geO74e71n2I
its kinda a similar thing in the psychological forwards battleground, when you've just demonstrated dominance ....make sure they know it ( sadly for saints it didn't last long enough to get them until the AP final :D!)

TheBFG
27-05-15, 11:05
I'm no fan of Hartley, but I think he's been singled out here. There is no where near the amount of contact in this case as there was in the Brown v Huget "incident" in the 2014 6N game (i'll try and add a link)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fecmMxCk5IA&feature=player_detailpage

crossref
27-05-15, 11:05
I watched the game live - and at the time I have to confess didn't think there was anything in it.

Browner
27-05-15, 12:05
I suspect ( but i may be wrong) the OP is merely having a pop at Our Dyl , but in the spirit of thread discussion ( I searched "notorious rugby thug" just to see what came up, ) this article did
http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/always-the-victim-never-the-perpetrator-all-blacks-must-own-their-acts-of-violence-20121127-2acrh.html
(granted written some time ago ) contained the names Hore, Johnson, Grewcock, Lowe, so its useful to consider against Hartley's England record.

Albeit I accept that camera angles/images have improved since it was written, and the citing process wasnt as developed, so yes DH does seem to present a risk, but I'm backing Stuart Lancaster to get a "dont let us down' message across to DH that JMallinder seems unable to convey well enough.

crossref
27-05-15, 14:05
so I am interested - who would give RC for that ? Or a YC or a PK ?

http://youtu.be/SBs-k2KULGI

on the day GG watched a replay and gave nothing at all.

I have to say when I watched it on TV on the day, my judgement was the same as GG - - although now he has been cited I am wondering if my reaction was wrong.

Ian_Cook
27-05-15, 14:05
Not so much having a pop at Hartley as wondering how a player who has such a terrible track record with discipline can end up captaining his club side. Perhaps a the mantle of captaincy is too much pressure for him.

As noted by others, he doesn't seem to get in foul play trouble playing in the white with the red rose, where he is not captain.

Browner
27-05-15, 15:05
so I am interested - who would give RC for that ? Or a YC or a PK ?

http://youtu.be/SBs-k2KULGI

on the day GG watched a replay and gave nothing at all.

I have to say when I watched it on TV on the day, my judgement was the same as GG - - although now he has been cited I am wondering if my reaction was wrong.

Agree Crossref, it was unnecessary, but I can't see a RC here either.

The game should deal with these instances of post try scoring macho bravado (to avoid grassroots cascading) TEotW etc,

so if I'd missed it live (but seen a screen replay) i wouldve restarted with a PK on halfway and a stern admonishment of the daftarse player for his unnecessary & deliberate walk into his opponent with his head leading the way ! , which isn't the same thing as a Head Strike (aka headbutting) IMHO.

DH clearly hasn't worked out that his 'slyness' doesn't escape the cameras, or those who target him - evidence suggests that penny may never drop.

Ps.As an aside, does the 'recipient' stand to benefit if Hartley is deselected???

PPs I didnt see any wondering about his ability to be club captain mentioned in the OP.

TheBFG
27-05-15, 16:05
Perhaps a the mantle of captaincy is too much pressure for him

or a way of trying to get him to stay focussed with the extra responsibility ?

Lee Lifeson-Peart
27-05-15, 16:05
DH clearly hasn't worked out that his 'slyness' doesn't escape the cameras, or those who target him - evidence suggests that penny may never drop.



Not thuggish behaviour but wearing white. DH was the instigator of Dane Coles YC in the Eng v NZ match -last Autumn -by shoving him into the turf. Not a big deal but could have cost him 10 mins on another day - With referees looking at replays in "real time" he runs the risk of his reputation preceding him.

I like abrasive hookers (ooh er) but DH can't seem to differentiate between doing enough to get his opposite number rattled and drawing attention to himself. He (along with all players) is under far more scrutiny than years ago but he doesn't seem to have (at club level) that "heads in the freezer" mentality encouraged by SCW in 2003.

One of my favourite international matches was Brian Moore and Jeff Probyn pushing the French Front Row (especially M. V Moscato) into getting themselves sent off as plots were lost in the France v England 5N match of 1992? The last of Moscato's 4 caps with Stephen Hilditch doing the honours at the PdP:biggrin:

I spoke to Jeff Probyn about it at a club dinner and he chuckled recounting the episode - what a naughty man he was! :biggrin:

Matt Dawson adds his twopennth with a couple of farthings from Brian Moore (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/32893675)

Ian_Cook
27-05-15, 21:05
or a way of trying to get him to stay focussed with the extra responsibility ?

Well, it clearly hasn't worked. He's has had 50 weeks of suspensions is his career thus far, 24 of those weeks in the last three seasons; thats getting on towards one third of the time suspended.

Crucial
27-05-15, 21:05
This one will be quite interesting as far as the judicial decision. By citing him in the first place the only real options are dismissing the citing or a decent ban. His track record proves that he doesn't respond to deterrents. If the act itself is considered to be even at a low entry there appears to be no mitigating factors (it looks to have been the last act of a bout of posturing) and the previous form will only add more weeks on.

My guess is that the problem of what to do with the thug from Rotorua will be passed on to Lancaster with a ban that finishes prior to the RWC

Camquin
27-05-15, 22:05
Banned until September 21 - so misses at least the first match

Ian_Cook
27-05-15, 22:05
Banned until September 21 - so misses at least the first match

Looks like 4 weeks to me

Regulation 17 Appendix 1

10.4(a) Striking with head
LE 4 weeks
MR 10 weeks
TE 16+ weeks


So LE with no mitigation.

Jarrod Burton
27-05-15, 23:05
Well, it clearly hasn't worked. He's has had 50 weeks of suspensions is his career thus far, 24 of those weeks in the last three seasons; thats getting on towards one third of the time suspended.

Do you mean one half Ian? Arithmetic Brain Fart? :)

Ian_Cook
28-05-15, 01:05
Do you mean one half Ian? Arithmetic Brain Fart? :)


I was talking about the last 24 weeks in three seasons. A NH season is about 32 weeks (AP 22-24 matches, RCC 6-9 matchs).

This makes 24 week and entire AP seaon, so about a bit less than a third of the time over the last three seasons if if your take HC/RCC into accoount.

RobLev
28-05-15, 02:05
Hartley cited for a head-butt

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/may/26/dylan-hartley-england-rugby-world-cup-cited-northampton-saracens

Honestly, if Hartley cops a big ban and misses the RWC, then IMO that will increase England's chances of winning it.

Hartley is a loose cannon with an appalling disciplinary record that almost descends to Danny Grewcockesque levels. For mine, he's a liability for any team he plays in, and the risk factor associated with having him play in a major match is not outweighed by his skills as a player.

For the record, has lack of discipline includes incidents of eye-gouging, biting and punching, as detailed here:

April 2007 - Suspended for 26 weeks for eye-gouging Wasps forwards James Haskell and Jonny O'Connor.
March 2012 - Suspended for eight weeks for biting Ireland forward Stephen Ferris in a Six Nations match.
December 2012 - Suspended for two weeks for punching Ulster hooker Rory Best in a Heineken Cup match.
May 2013 - Sent off in the Aviva Premiership final and Suspended for 11 weeks after being found guilty of verbally abusing a match official (this one caused him to miss selection for the 2013 Lions tours).
December 2014 - Sent off and suspended for three weeks for striking Matt Smith with his elbow during the Aviva Premiership match between his Northampton Saints side and Leicester Tigers.


And now, head-butting may have been added to his list. Not listed is the raft of yellow cards he has received.

Not defending his record generally - but the "biting" was in self-defence, and the bitee was lucky not to be cited for fish-hooking.

Browner
28-05-15, 06:05
So, Citing process determines that the head strike was in fact a Red Card offence. :chin:

The umpire
28-05-15, 20:05
So, Citing process determines that the head strike was in fact a Red Card offence. :chin:

Isn't it always?

Dickie E
28-05-15, 21:05
the bitee was lucky not to be cited for fish-hooking.[/QUOTE]

if you stick your finger into another player's mouth you shouldn't get a red card, you should get a Darwin Award

crossref
29-05-15, 12:05
Hartley dropped from squad
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/32931690


""In addition, the regulations also clearly state that in our squad we must have sufficient cover that is suitably trained and experienced in the front row in case of injury. This is clearly not the case if we begin the tournament with a suspended hooker and as such we have been left with no choice but to replace him."

Browner
29-05-15, 13:05
"Saracens' Jamie George - who has replaced him"

Fortuitous !

Browner
29-05-15, 13:05
Isn't it always?

No.

. (a) Punching or striking. A player must not strike an opponent with the fist or arm, including the elbow, shoulder, head or knee(s).

Sanction: Penalty kick .

Not all PK are RC http://www.rugbyrefs.com/images/smilies/68.gif

Three sanction options
. (a) Any player who infringes any part of the Foul Play Law must be admonished, or cautioned and temporarily suspended for a period of ten minutes’ playing time, or sent-off.

Severity judgement is clearly a Law expectation of a referee, so it should also be for a citing officer.

Browner
29-05-15, 13:05
RFU used to have disciplinary judgements section on its website, I can't find on the new site ? Anyone?

crossref
29-05-15, 13:05
http://www.englandrugby.com/governance/discipline/judgments-document-search/

Browner
29-05-15, 13:05
http://www.englandrugby.com/governance/discipline/judgments-document-search/

Ah ha .....the search text set within the red banner, got it thanks

beckett50
29-05-15, 13:05
Oh, the irony!!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/32931690

Been replaced in the squad by Jamie George :hap:

crossref
29-05-15, 14:05
what a disaster for DH...

Dixie
29-05-15, 14:05
what a disaster for DH... True - and if it was not a disaster entirely of his own making, one might have a bit of sympathy for the chap. As it is, however ....

Browner
29-05-15, 16:05
Its an interesting case,

Matchday ref has a good look at it, no sanction.
Someone flags to the Match Observer ( presumably the player or the club of the guy now selected for England in DH place?)

Citing Commissioner (who was this person exactly ?) decides it was severe enough not to warrant YC or indeed a 'OrangyRed ' (ie " almost, but not quite a Red" known as severe enough to only warrant a Level 1 citing .... as he could in RFU reg appendix 4. 10 )

DH attends hearing and admits the offence of "striking" ( no argument here)

The disciplinary Hearing determine it was an offence 'worthy of a RC' , they had the option to also categorise it as YC severity, but they chose not to.

Any tariff Mitigation weeks of low severity gets countermanded by his previous record and the min LE tariff ends his world cup.

I have sympathy with the player for the severity of this offence, not his cumulative past record.

SimonSmith
29-05-15, 18:05
"If you think you might not like a decision I'll make, don't put me in the position of having to make it."

Entirely a rod of his own making.

Ian_Cook
29-05-15, 21:05
Hartley dropped from squad
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/32931690

Well, I guess that answers my OP question then!


Browner as regards your last post - straws, camels, backs.


However, I don't think you have outlined the citing procedure correctly.

A Level 1 citing (also known as a Citing Commissioner warning; in SANZAR we call it a post match YC or an off-field YC) cannot proceed to a full disciplinary heading....

RFU REGULATION 19 - APPENDIX 4

CITING PROCEDURES

10. If the Citing Commissioner assesses that a Player committed a serious
act of Foul Play which in his/her assessment almost, but not quite,
meets the red card threshold but does warrant an off-field yellow card
for the act of Foul Play he may issue a written warning (known as a ‘level
1 citing’).

11. In these circumstances the RFU Head of Discipline shall communicate
to the Player via his Club by way of a letter or email, indicating that the
act of Foul Play was detected and that the Citing Commissioner has
deemed that it merited a level 1 citing. Such a written warning will be
recorded on the Player’s disciplinary record and may be taken into
consideration in future disciplinary proceedings. It will remain on a
Player’s record for 5 years and will be treated the same as a Foul Play
yellow card for the purposes of totting up during the relevant season
and the relevant administrative fee, as set out in appendix 3, will be
payable by the Club.

A Citing Commissioner Warning is not a Citing, and as such, it cannot proceed to a full disciplinary hearing, it can only affect a subsequent disciplinary hearing for another offence that happens within 5 years of the Warning. As far as I can tel;l, Hartley did not receive a Citing Commissioner Warning for this infringement, he was cited for an act of Foul Play (that) merited the award of a red card. (RFU Reg 19 clause 9)

The proceedings are not up on the RFU website yet, but when they are, I am sure they will reflect this.

Browner
30-05-15, 14:05
RFU regulation 19
Appendix 4
Point 10.

Point 10 creates the concept of the 'Orange' offence, higher than a yellow but not quite Red, ( but it adds onto your cumulative disciplinary record )


If the Citing Commissioner assesses that a player committed a serious act of Foul Play that in his/her assessment almost, but not quite, meets the Red Card threshold.......

So this CC assessed DH's action to be a serious act of Foul Play of a severity beyond that within this specific regulation, & it's that assessment judgement of that CC that I'm questioning (*), because...... it looked nothing like serious enough to qualify, to my eye.

IMO a competent and diligent CC should have issued a L1 Citing for this severity of foul play.

Why he didn't bemuses me :confused:

Ian_Cook
30-05-15, 15:05
A head butt is always a deliberate act in which the intent is to accomplish only one thing... injure the opponent! There is no such thing as an unintentional head-butt

Accordingly, it should always be a RC.

Simon Thomas
30-05-15, 15:05
Simple to me - CC saw a RC offence of use of head and so cited DH.
No question of anything else from what I saw.