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View Full Version : Ashton denied try by Banahan handling ball 74 mins. Could penalty try been awarded?



CrouchTPEngage
31-05-15, 15:05
Watched the AVIVA Premiership final again today.
Just a question on the incident at about 74 mins as Saracens attacked down their right wing. There was a kick-chase and a bit if a fumble by many players. Ashton was off-side at one point (off the field of play but OK), then he became onside again. The ball bobbled to about 5 meters from the try-line. There is Ashton , on his feet. He only has to pick up the ball and walk it over for a try. Banahan is lying on the ground (having missed collecting the ball ) and stretches out an arm to place his hand on the ball. I note the commentary team highlighted this action as saving a try. In fact they mention that this action forced Ashton to knock-on. But I'm thinking : Player off his feet clearly playing the ball. Ashton was ON his feet and should have been able to pick the ball and score. I realise a player can go to ground to pick up the ball but must immediately attempt to get up. Banahan was not attempting this. He looked like he was trying to hold onto the ball to stop Ashton from picking it up.
Would you have penalised Banahan and awarded a penalty try to Ashton ?

I have penalised players in that past like this and wondered if I;m doing it wrong.

crossref
31-05-15, 15:05
I had similar thoughts, but I didn't get a chance to see the incident replayed to see exactly what happened.

OB..
31-05-15, 16:05
I also wondered why Banahan was allowed to get away with that.

The Fat
31-05-15, 23:05
Video anyone?

Browner
01-06-15, 00:06
Hi CTPE

Re:
. Player off his feet clearly playing the ball. .

IIUC the Elite game doesnt penalise it, so why is that????? Maybe its because you won't find a Law saying that playing the ball whilst the player is already on the ground if it comes to him isnt an offence.

What you will find is, Law saying that
* if you go to ground and gather the ball then you must act immediately ... &
* Players on the ground with the ball must one of the 3 things specified in 14.1(a)"

Some referees are in the 'playing the ball whilst you are on the ground is a PK" camp, others( as youve seen ) arent.

This subject has been debated (with some fairly entrenched positions) before on RR.forums,
....Slightly here
1) http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?18335-Player-on-the-ground-receives-the-ball&highlight=Ground

.....More in depthly here
2) http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?16447-Penalty-for-playing-the-ball-on-the-ground/page2&highlight=Ground

Id say Post #255 ( in thread no2) probably answers your question best.

Ps....Someone on the ground gathered a loose ball c.52 mins in the Worcester v Bristol 2nd leg, I also noted it at the time but haven't yet had chance to look for a video clip.

The Fat
01-06-15, 11:06
Watched the AVIVA Premiership final again today.
Just a question on the incident at about 74 mins as Saracens attacked down their right wing. There was a kick-chase and a bit if a fumble by many players. Ashton was off-side at one point (off the field of play but OK), then he became onside again. The ball bobbled to about 5 meters from the try-line. There is Ashton , on his feet. He only has to pick up the ball and walk it over for a try. Banahan is lying on the ground (having missed collecting the ball ) and stretches out an arm to place his hand on the ball. I note the commentary team highlighted this action as saving a try. In fact they mention that this action forced Ashton to knock-on. But I'm thinking : Player off his feet clearly playing the ball. Ashton was ON his feet and should have been able to pick the ball and score. I realise a player can go to ground to pick up the ball but must immediately attempt to get up. Banahan was not attempting this. He looked like he was trying to hold onto the ball to stop Ashton from picking it up.
Would you have penalised Banahan and awarded a penalty try to Ashton ?

I have penalised players in that past like this and wondered if I;m doing it wrong.

The ball was on the ground and the Bath player went to ground to gain possession (Law 14). He missed at his first attempt to get a hand to it and had to reach out again. This is what made it look like it was possibly a man off his feet playing the ball.
No problem with WB's decision.

Simon Thomas
01-06-15, 12:06
Yet another elite interpretation that I have trouble understanding. Likewise at elite level with the slowing down of the release of the ball by the tackled players or players falling on the loose ball - it seems longer and longer is being allowed in giving the attacking teams precedence.

MB was off his feet so out of the game - no effort to get up or pass the ball. And it was not being place back in a tackle.

At Community level I would have been looking for a PK from the referee - not sure a PT was for consideration as there were other Bath players nearby.

Wedgie
01-06-15, 19:06
Video anyone?
Can't find one, but recall the incident and discussing with my son who picked it out (better eyes than his old man!). I think there was a Sarries knock on immediately prior to Banahan reaching out, so the call was scrum blue?

EDIT : yes. white 10 KO. ~1:28 on http://www.premiershiprugby.tv/

crossref
01-06-15, 21:06
i thought he gave the KO against Ashton, who was trying to pick it up, impeded by Banahan

The Fat
01-06-15, 22:06
He actually gives the knock-on against the White player who tried to pick it up before Ashton