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cjvanton
25-08-15, 22:08
When a attacker and defender meets in a collision and the defender grabs the attacker to keep him up, must the defender release the attacker as soon as the attackers' knee touches the ground?

Ian_Cook
25-08-15, 23:08
When a attacker and defender meets in a collision and the defender grabs the attacker to keep him up, must the defender release the attacker as soon as the attackers' knee touches the ground?


Welcome to rugbyrefs.com

Just a quick word about terminology. It is better to use the player's roles rather than their position on the field when describing a scenario unless your question specifically relates to position on the field

GENERAL DEFINITIONS
Attacking team: The opponents of the defending team in whose half of the ground play
is taking place
Defending team: The team in whose half of the ground play is taking place; their
opponents are the attacking team.
Ball carrier: A player carrying the ball.

So to rephrase you question



When a Ball Carrier and an opponent meet in a collision and the opponent grabs the Ball Carrier to keep him up, must the opponent release the ball carrier as soon as the Ball Carrier's knee touches the ground?

Yes, he does

LAW 15.3 BROUGHT TO THE GROUND DEFINED
(a) If the ball carrier has one knee or both knees on the ground, that player has been ‘brought
to ground’.
(b) If the ball carrier is sitting on the ground, or on top of another player on the ground the ball
carrier has been ‘brought to ground’.

The ball carrier has been tackled

LAW 15.6 OTHER PLAYERS
(c) Players in opposition to the ball carrier who remain on their feet who bring the ball carrier to
ground so that the player is tackled must release the ball and the ball carrier. Those players
may then play the ball providing they are on their feet and do so from behind the ball and
from directly behind the tackled player or a tackler closest to those players’ goal line.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Taff
25-08-15, 23:08
When a attacker and defender meets in a collision and the defender grabs the attacker to keep him up, must the defender release the attacker as soon as the attackers' knee touches the ground?
I used to say no, but I've since changed my mind.

My logic was that "being held and brought to ground" was totally different to "being held and going to ground". As far as the lawbook is concerned though, the ball carrier has been tackled.

At first glance this seems unfair, BUT don't forget that as soon as the "tackler" has released the ball carrier, he can go straight for the ball, and the ball carrier has to release it. In your example, I can almost guarantee that the ball carrier will hang on to the ball ... and that's a penalty kick offence. :knuppel2:

Ian_Cook
25-08-15, 23:08
IAt first glance this seems unfair, BUT don't forget that as soon as the "tackler" has released the ball carrier, he can go straight for the ball, and the ball carrier has to release it. In your example, I can almost guarantee that the ball carrier will hang on to the ball ... and that's a penalty kick offence. :knuppel2:


Only if the "tackler" is a tackler as defined in Law, (i.e. has gone to ground himself) and then regained his feet

If he hasn't also gone to ground, then he is not a tackler, but what we often refer to as a "Tackle Assist". He can only play the ball if he;

► Is in the gate and has shown a "clear release" (not just lifting his hands 1mm and then going back in). We want to see his hands well away from the tackled player,

OR

► Has left the tackle zone and re-entered through the gate

AND

► Is on his feet.

Dickie E
26-08-15, 00:08
When a attacker and defender meets in a collision and the defender grabs the attacker to keep him up, must the defender release the attacker as soon as the attackers' knee touches the ground?

Agree with the comments of others. Note, too, that the defender may not be aware that the ball carrier's knee has hit the ground so the astute referee will manage by calling for a release.

TigerCraig
26-08-15, 01:08
Agree with the comments of others. Note, too, that the defender may not be aware that the ball carrier's knee has hit the ground so the astute referee will manage by calling for a release.

And of course, if a teammate of the ball carrier has bound on, we have a maul and no standing opponents have to release the ball carrier or the ball regardless of what touches the ground.

Ian_Cook
26-08-15, 02:08
And of course, if a teammate of the ball carrier has bound on, we have a maul and no standing opponents have to release the ball carrier or the ball regardless of what touches the ground.

...but not if the ball carrier already has one or both knees down.

TigerCraig
26-08-15, 07:08
...but not if the ball carrier already has one or both knees down.

Of course, then we don't get a maul :biggrin:

Phil E
26-08-15, 09:08
When a attacker and defender meets in a collision and the defender grabs the attacker to keep him up, must the defender release the attacker as soon as the attackers' knee touches the ground?

Yes. But since the participants may not realise this a shout of "Tackle", will let them all know what phase of play we are in. You don't need to shout this for every tackle, but in this case where it may not be obvious it helps.
You would also want to follow up with a shout to inform the tackle assist to release, followed by letting the ball carrier know he has to release the ball and stand back up, he can't just carry on.

Jarrod Burton
26-08-15, 11:08
How long does the knee have to be on the ground for a tackle. One of recent matches had a player who was adept at holding a tackled player up (strong bugger) and a couple of times the tackled player only just brushed the ground with his knee before being held up. I didn't class these as tackles and have had mixed feedback as to whether I should have called tackle. In my opinion a player who wants to go to ground needs to make lasting contact with the ground or hit it with some force rather than just touch with their knee to prevent a legitimate attempt to form a maul.

Phil E
26-08-15, 12:08
How long does the knee have to be on the ground for a tackle. One of recent matches had a player who was adept at holding a tackled player up (strong bugger) and a couple of times the tackled player only just brushed the ground with his knee before being held up. I didn't class these as tackles and have had mixed feedback as to whether I should have called tackle. In my opinion a player who wants to go to ground needs to make lasting contact with the ground or hit it with some force rather than just touch with their knee to prevent a legitimate attempt to form a maul.

That works for me.

Pegleg
26-08-15, 12:08
How long is a piece of string? Sorry that's not very helpful. The best answer I can give is you (the ref) are the "sole" judge as to whether a tackle has taken place. Call it loud and no one should argue!

Ian_Cook
26-08-15, 13:08
So, in the interests of following Robbie's suggestion as regards discussions here, lets keep things simple and not get into too much argument in our efforts to answer a new member's OP

The OP's question essentially asks "when a ball carrier is grasped by an opponent, and the ball carrier's knee touches the ground, does the opponent have to release him?"

The answer is yes, because the ball carrier has been tackled.

Reference:
Law 15.3 - Brought to ground defined
Law 15.4 - The Tackler
Law 15.5 - The Tackled Player
Law 15.6 - Other Players

didds
26-08-15, 13:08
Agree with Ian... being tackled is a bit like being pregnant. The knee on the ground, no matter how fleeting, is there.

didds

didds
26-08-15, 14:08
My seocndary question...

In this cneraio, following the fleetingly brushed knee, the defender hauls the ball carrier back upright such that he is standing.

ref calls "tackled - release".

Presuming the defender does release, presumably the standing ball carrier, on his feet, must still either (immediately) pass or release (ie drop the ball)

- as the BC is already standing could he bounce the ball (release!) and catch it then run off?

- if the BC is facing his opponents' dead ball line, a release ie drop may be seen as a knock-on
- can the BC here propel the ball towards his own DBL "immediately" [ I am guessing so cos a prone player could roll the ball away
etc]


Just thoughts, not trying to ask angels to dance etc :)

didds



-

TheBFG
26-08-15, 14:08
My seocndary question...

In this cneraio, following the fleetingly brushed knee, the defender hauls the ball carrier back upright such that he is standing.

ref calls "tackled - release"-

If it happen that quickly I'd be saying nothing and letting play develop, in the same way we're taught to sometimes "hold the whistle" I'd say the same goes before backing yourself in a corner by calling something that then causes a major problem for you.

cjvanton
26-08-15, 19:08
Thanks guys. My only uncertainty was where the tackled players' knees touched the ground only briefly. But im satisfied with the answers i received