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The Fat
28-08-15, 08:08
Is the RFU 2011 version the latest?

Phil E
28-08-15, 10:08
Is the RFU 2011 version the latest?

I think the 14/15 version is the latest out there.

Its the one that has two versions.
Level 5 and below version
Above level 5 version

The Fat
28-08-15, 10:08
I think the 14/15 version is the latest out there.

Its the one that has two versions.
Level 5 and below version
Above level 5 version

Are they readily available on the RFU website or is it secret men's business?

Phil E
28-08-15, 10:08
Are they readily available on the RFU website or is it secret men's business?

They are on various society websites.


http://www.hertsrefs.co.uk/docs/2013_14/Front_Row_Logic_Tree_Level_5_and_below.pdf

http://www.englandrugby.com/mm/Document/MyRugby/Referee/01/30/47/57/Front_Row_Logic_Tree_1415_Levels_3_4_Neutral.pdf

The Fat
28-08-15, 11:08
They are on various society websites.


http://www.hertsrefs.co.uk/docs/2013_14/Front_Row_Logic_Tree_Level_5_and_below.pdf

http://www.englandrugby.com/mm/Document/MyRugby/Referee/01/30/47/57/Front_Row_Logic_Tree_1415_Levels_3_4_Neutral.pdf

Cheers

The Fat
28-08-15, 11:08
OK
Stupid question time.
With 23 players nominated, there must be 6 players able to play in the front row.
Which logic tree is used in this situation?

crossref
28-08-15, 13:08
Nb this login tree is flawed as the references to 14 assume that the team is starting with 15 players.

If a team actually have 14 already (eg a there has been a prior unrelated YC or RC . ) then a subsequent front row injury with no replacement would reduce them to 13...

(cue howls of outrage)

The Fat
28-08-15, 19:08
Nb this login tree is flawed as the references to 14 assume that the team is starting with 15 players.

If a team actually have 14 already (eg a there has been a prior unrelated YC or RC . ) then a subsequent front row injury with no replacement would reduce them to 13...

(cue howls of outrage)

That would be assuming that the team was already down to 14 players because a player other than a FR player had been carded and prior to the FR injury, there were still contested scrums and there were no more FR players available to replace the injured FR player.

The reason for my original post was to confirm what happens when a team, that nominated 23 players and therefore had 2 players for each FR position, loses say both TH props (let's say through injury). Even though the team fully complied with the laws at the start of the game, once the two injuries caused the game to go with uncontested scrums, that team would not be able to replace the second injured TH and would have to then play with 14 players.

This is confirmed by Law Clarification 5 - 2015.

Replacement. A player who replaces an injured team-mate.
Substitute. A player who replaces a team-mate for tactical reasons.

Example 1: 3 is injured and replaced (note definition above) by 18 (the declared TH cover). If 18 gets then gets injured the team goes to 14 players and uncontested scrums. (Law 3.5 h, m and t )

Example 2: 3 is substituted (note definition above) by 18 (the declared TH cover). If 18 gets then gets injured then 3 can return and the game continues with contested scrums (Law 3.5 r and s and 3.13)

Example 3: 3 is injured and replaced by 18 (the declared TH cover). If 18 gets then gets temporarily replaced for Blood (Law 3.10) or HIA (Law 3.11) the team can continue with 15 players but scrums become uncontested until 18 returns. If 18 does not return then the team goes to 14 players and uncontested scrums. (Law 3.5 h, m and t)

Example 4: 3 is substituted by 18 (the declared TH cover). If 18 gets then gets temporarily replaced for (Law 3.10) or HIA (Law 3.11) then 3 can return and the game continues with contested scrums. (Law 3.13)

In order to facilitate this process and apply Law 3.5(g) then teams should declare prior to the match (on the competition team sheet) exactly which front row positions that players are suitably trained and experienced to play in. These players can be nominated to play in more than one front row position.


However, (stupid question time again), if a team has been subject to the man off rule and they are playing with 14 players and uncontested scrums, if a LH prop gets replaced and then his replacement LH also gets injured (this team is having a really bad day), because the game has already gone to uncontested scrums, that second LH prop would be able to be replaced by any bench player and they continue with 14 players. Is this correct?

Simon Thomas
29-08-15, 10:08
Just FYI This FR Logic Tree was created by the Midlands Group Comps Secretary some seasons ago,and just adopted by the Societies.

I have never heard of it bring formally adopted or published by RFU centrally - Phil E / Murph you ever heard anything ?

Phil E
29-08-15, 11:08
Just FYI This FR Logic Tree was created by the Midlands Group Comps Secretary some seasons ago,and just adopted by the Societies.

I have never heard of it bring formally adopted or published by RFU centrally - Phil E / Murph you ever heard anything ?

Simon
If you follow the second link I posted for fat it leads to the RFU (England Rugby) website.

ctrainor
09-09-15, 20:09
Got asked this question.
Red go down to 14 due to a sin bin for prop, and then went to uncontested scrums.
If they haven't made a FR replacement I guess they should bring him on and stay contested.
If they have made a change and claim the FR is now injured I believe they stay at 14 for the duration of the Sin bin.

I got asked but Red have caused the uncontested scrum and should lose another man?
I think it isn't clear even when you read the logic tree as if there is and injury say to shoulder of FR but technically could continue to play he has to go off for causing uncontested scrums.

I think I am correct in my judgement.
Do you all agree.
Level 7 3 subs 1 FR

The Fat
09-09-15, 20:09
I think it isn't clear even when you read the logic tree as if there is and injury say to shoulder of FR but technically could continue to play he has to go off for causing uncontested scrums.


If a FR player has picked up an injury that prevents him continuing to play in the FR with contested scrums, he is also unfit to continue to play anywhere on the field. He is finished for the day.

crossref
09-09-15, 22:09
Got asked this question.
Red go down to 14 due to a sin bin for prop, and then went to uncontested scrums.
If they haven't made a FR replacement I guess they should bring him on and stay contested.
If they have made a change and claim the FR is now injured I believe they stay at 14 for the duration of the Sin bin.

I got asked but Red have caused the uncontested scrum and should lose another man?
I think it isn't clear even when you read the logic tree as if there is and injury say to shoulder of FR but technically could continue to play he has to go off for causing uncontested scrums.

I think I am correct in my judgement.
Do you all agree.
Level 7 3 subs 1 FR

I don't understand your scenario, it isn't clear to me..

Phil E
09-09-15, 23:09
14 men and uncontested.
Next scrum if they have a FR bring him on and take someone off. Still 14 but contested. At end of YC back to 15 and contested.
Next scrum if they don't have a FR its 14 and uncontested. At end of YC back to 15 and contested.

The man off scenario, taking another man off and down to 13 was originally mentioned by RFU but quickly reversed on advice from IRB.

ctrainor
10-09-15, 12:09
Thanks Phil E confirmed my understanding

FlipFlop
10-09-15, 17:09
The general rule is: If someone leaving the field (for what ever reason) causes uncontested scrums they cannot replace that player unless it results in contested scrums.

So in the scenario given (unless mistaken in understating of scenario) - prop off causes uncontested. They cannot replace to allow contested (which they have to do if possible), so remain at 14 and uncontested.

Yes it isn't always fair, but that's life

crossref
10-09-15, 18:09
The general rule is: If someone leaving the field (for what ever reason) causes uncontested scrums they cannot replace that player unless it results in contested scrums.

well, if he goes off because of a RC or YC, he cannot be replaced at all --- and if they now need to bring on sub to contest the scrums then someone else is going to have to be replaced...

FlipFlop
10-09-15, 21:09
well, if he goes off because of a RC or YC, he cannot be replaced at all --- and if they now need to bring on sub to contest the scrums then someone else is going to have to be replaced...

In which case you can only do so if it results in contested scrums. My point was that if you can't end up at contested scrums, the person that went off is not replaced. Not a player needs to go off. So Red card, no ability to remain contested scrums, to play 14. Not 13. (assuming 15 to start). The point being that the FR is not replaced to enable contested scrums, so the FR going off (for any reason) results in either contested scrum (either via sub or temp sub for cards) or uncontested scrums (no replacement of FR who went off).

It is not a rule that says - uncontested so take off a player. It is a rule that says - FR goes off, either sub (including YC/blood sub etc) to enable contested, or no sub at all. Not an extra player leaving.

Camquin
24-10-16, 18:10
Sorry to come back to this.
There is a question on Rolling maul.
So green run out of props so need to go uncontested so drop to 14 men.
Then there is a separate yellow card.
Do they play with 13 for the duration of the card?

OB..
24-10-16, 18:10
Yes, it's just as if there were two yellow cards.

Thunderhorse1986
12-01-17, 13:01
How many players need to be in an uncontested scrum?

Red have 16 players (1 sub, a back) but no FR replacement. Their LHP gets injured, has to go off. They bring on their replacement (the back). That is fine. Then there is a scrum. Must be uncontested as Red have no FR to scrummage. They have to go to 14 men.

Can they scrummage with 7 in the uncontested scrum? And if so, can Blue also drop to 7?

If Red then lose their THP, they go to 13 players, again, can they scrummage with 6?

Or are Red forced to have 8 in the uncontested scrum and therefore have a reduced back line?

didds
12-01-17, 13:01
seniors or age groups (which?) , and which country?

didds

crossref
12-01-17, 15:01
How many players need to be in an uncontested scrum?

Red have 16 players (1 sub, a back) but no FR replacement. Their LHP gets injured, has to go off. They bring on their replacement (the back). That is fine. Then there is a scrum. Must be uncontested as Red have no FR to scrummage. They have to go to 14 men.

Can they scrummage with 7 in the uncontested scrum? And if so, can Blue also drop to 7?

If Red then lose their THP, they go to 13 players, again, can they scrummage with 6?

Or are Red forced to have 8 in the uncontested scrum and therefore have a reduced back line?


- with 14 players red can choose either 8 or 7
- with 13 players red can choose either 8 or 7 or 6

blue
- at adult levels blue have 15 players so they have to have 8 in scrum
- at u19 and below blue have to match red

Thunderhorse1986
12-01-17, 17:01
- with 14 players red can choose either 8 or 7
- with 13 players red can choose either 8 or 7 or 6

blue
- at adult levels blue have 15 players so they have to have 8 in scrum
- at u19 and below blue have to match red

Thanks - this was as I had expected (juniors must match, nothing to say seniors must). However it possibly goes against the spirit of the law? The team which hasn't offended, and has a full FR complement has to tie up 8 players in the scrum, while the opposition can have fewer and therefore keep their fill of players in the back line. That is why I asked the question as while I believed that was the right answer, it didn't necessarily feel right.

Furthermore, in one competition I referee (ZOO league), it is stated in the regulations that if a team "goes to uncontested scrums during a match they wiill need to remove an outfield player for the durartion of uncontested scrums". This was confirmed by a competition organiser to mean someone not in the scrum and that the intention is that the scrum will stay the same number and a player will be taken from the backs.

crossref
12-01-17, 18:01
the team that hasn't offended has a full complement in the backs as well as in the pack!

I ref in the ZOO league as well - the rules there are not well written..
this is what it says..


10. The normal league regulations applying to the constitution of the Front Row WILL NOT APPLY, Where one side is unable to field a qualified front row the match will be played with uncontested scrums. This is an attempt to get a game played wherever possible for the benefit of all players concerned. However it is expected that clubs will approach this rule in the spirit that it is written and meant !! Teams expecting to be uncontested must also give prior notice to the opposition well in advance. In line with RFU policy a team who starts, or who goes to uncontested scrums during a match, will need to remove an outfield player for the duration of uncontested scrums.

when you go uncontested during the game, the person who has been 'removed' is the FR player who just went off, and who isn't replaced, so that phrase about removing an outfield player makes no sense.

When a team starts with uncontested scrums there is an implication that the organisers want there still to be 8 forwards, but when it happens during the match I am not sure it's feasible : a prop goes off, and an outfield player has to join the scrum?

As a referee I would ref it as per my earlier post.

Pinky
12-01-17, 19:01
How many players need to be in an uncontested scrum?

Red have 16 players (1 sub, a back) but no FR replacement. Their LHP gets injured, has to go off. They bring on their replacement (the back). That is fine. Then there is a scrum. Must be uncontested as Red have no FR to scrummage. They have to go to 14 men.

Can they scrummage with 7 in the uncontested scrum? And if so, can Blue also drop to 7?

If Red then lose their THP, they go to 13 players, again, can they scrummage with 6?

Or are Red forced to have 8 in the uncontested scrum and therefore have a reduced back line?

TH, if red do not have a FR replacement (he may be on the field) then they can only have 15 players and the sub should not be allowed on at all. If a FR player then goes off they are down to 14 men.

Thunderhorse1986
13-01-17, 14:01
crossref - I specifically asked for guidance on this from the Zoo league organisers and the reply stated that the intent was that numbers in the scrum would remain the same and a player would be taken from the backs. I can send you that directly on email if you DM me. Maybe not clear and obvious in the regs as there is no definition on "outfield" player.

No issue with any back going into an uncontested scrum from a safety perspective, although backs might not always be welcome to join the back row in a contested scrum... see Johnny May's binding during the Autumn internationals!

crossref
13-01-17, 17:01
That's interesting.
What if it's 15 v 13 would they still expect 8 in the scrum?
Will DM my email address