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breako
31-08-15, 19:08
Have a look at this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jb_qhi5gLQo

The Scrum at 4:40. Decision goes against England Tight for need on floor. But it looks to me the French Loose head is hinging down and that is what is causing it. So should be penalty England.

Anyone any thoughts?

Balones
31-08-15, 21:08
Look at what the England T/H does with his arm.

RobLev
01-09-15, 00:09
Look at what the England T/H does with his arm.

Rather less (at least in terms of illegality) than what the French L/H is doing with his left arm. Stop it at 4:27 and you'll see the whitey-tighty with his elbow pointing out, and the rougey-loosey with his elbow pointing straight down. At 4:31 the LH's actually made contact with the ground with his left elbow.

Ian_Cook
01-09-15, 01:09
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/RugbyRefs/France-England-Scrum1.png

Either the referee and the England SH are six feet nine, or that scrum is packed far too low.

Red LHP pulling down and in. That is, IMO, the reason why the scrum went down.

Nearside AR should have called it in.

Balones
01-09-15, 07:09
What we don't see on the clip is the CBS. This would help us to see why the L/Hs arm was where it was. At the start of the clip you can see that the T/H though binding legally with his hand, does also have his arm across the upper arm of the L/H preventing the L/H getting his arm up. This could be the reason why the L/H arm/hand is where it is. I agree that the scrum is packed too low and the AR should have called in a 'head below shoulders' call to the ref to reset. This scrum always looked as if it was going down. This is a case of a referee setting up badly.
However, the scrum was stable (or at least resisting collapse) until the action of the T/H.

Pegleg
01-09-15, 08:09
I think it's a reset. Both packs are too low. It's not clear why the arms are where they are, without the benefit of seeing the whole engagement.

RobLev
01-09-15, 13:09
What we don't see on the clip is the CBS. This would help us to see why the L/Hs arm was where it was. At the start of the clip you can see that the T/H though binding legally with his hand, does also have his arm across the upper arm of the L/H preventing the L/H getting his arm up.

Isn't that where it's supposed to be?

20.3...

(d) ...A tight head prop must bind on the opposing loose head prop by placing the right arm outside the left upper arm of the opposing loose head prop...


This could be the reason why the L/H arm/hand is where it is. I agree that the scrum is packed too low and the AR should have called in a 'head below shoulders' call to the ref to reset. This scrum always looked as if it was going down. This is a case of a referee setting up badly.
However, the scrum was stable (or at least resisting collapse) until the action of the T/H.

Womble
01-09-15, 18:09
Do these start any Higher? Its the England TH that pulls it down, Elbow pointing down is one of the signs of a prop putting downward force on the scrum.
http://www.rugbyonslaught.com/2015/08/scrum-nerds-will-just-love-this-clip-of.html

RobLev
01-09-15, 18:09
Do these start any Higher? Its the England TH that pulls it down, Elbow pointing down is one of the signs of a prop putting downward force on the scrum.
http://www.rugbyonslaught.com/2015/08/scrum-nerds-will-just-love-this-clip-of.html

Which comprehensively fingers the French LH as pulling it down; his elbow is pointing down from start to finish...

menace
02-09-15, 02:09
IMO, it's not really clear and obvious, so could justify a reset.

Though the ref could have justified a reset well before the collapse anyway under
(e) When a scrum remains stationary and the ball does not emerge immediately a further scrum is ordered at the place of the stoppage. The ball is thrown in by the team not in possession at the time of the stoppage.
(f)
When a scrum becomes stationary and does not start moving immediately, the ball must emerge immediately. If it does not a further scrum will be ordered. The ball is thrown in by the team not in possession at the time of the stoppage.

I can't understand why they insist on ignoring these laws....may as well just delete them?
Perhaps if he used them then he wouldn't have painted himself into a corner and PK a 50/50?

TheBFG
02-09-15, 15:09
Do these start any Higher? Its the England TH that pulls it down, Elbow pointing down is one of the signs of a prop putting downward force on the scrum.
http://www.rugbyonslaught.com/2015/08/scrum-nerds-will-just-love-this-clip-of.html

you've been on the scrumpy again mate! at no point does the Eng TH's elbow point down, however at 4.38 you can see what appears to be an attempt to turn the Fra LH in, but not sure if it makes any difference?

Think we discussed this one at the time, but for my Mr Lacy has had a number of dodgy calls in the warm up games and he's not been helped by his AR's.

On Saturday there was a clear case for the new clarifications where a player was in reverse gear getting to the back of the maul after a lineout :nono: