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Taff
15-09-15, 15:09
I'm glad there has been a clarification, but at the same time it is concerning that there needed to be one. If referees weren't penalising that, it is quite troubling.
TBH I thought it applied to all parts of the FoP anyway and not just close to the goal line. In fact, it's one of the 5 "general points" I cover in my PMB, and have done for the last 2-3 years. I can't remember a single player moaning that it was unfair.


If it needs a 'clarification' then it needs to be actually written into the Laws. I hope we'll see an new item in Law 10 in the next Law book to explicitly state this.
Easily done Crossref. Just move it from the "In-Goal" section to the "Foul Play" section and remove any reference to in-goal. Job done.

SimonSmith
15-09-15, 17:09
TBH I thought it applied to all parts of the FoP anyway and not just close to the goal line. In fact, it's one of the 5 "general points" I cover in my PMB, and have done for the last 2-3 years. I can't remember a single player moaning that it was unfair.


Easily done Crossref. Just move it from the "In-Goal" section to the "Foul Play" section and remove any reference to in-goal. Job done.

How did you work into your PMB? I may have misunderstood but I can't see the circumstances in which I would

Taff
15-09-15, 23:09
How did you work into your PMB? I may have misunderstood but I can't see the circumstances in which I would
Pretty easy really.

The PMB covers

FRs - Crouch bind set etc
No 9s - In quick and straight, quick penalties etc
No 10s - Pls make sure all your team mates are behind the 5m offside fro scrums and 10m offside lines for LOs.

I then cover a few "general points". Oddly you can sense that this is when they really start listening

"Hands On" means nothing
Always play to the whistle
Kicking the ball out of a ruck is OK - except if somebody already has his hands on it
LOs - if you want a shortened one, please tell me
If there are any injuries - we will play on unless it's dangerous.

No doubt somebody will say "It isn't brief" but it really doesn't need to take long, and it's surprising how the general points nip any potential issues in the bud.

Ian_Cook
16-09-15, 01:09
Pretty easy really.

The PMB covers

FRs - Crouch bind set etc
No 9s - In quick and straight, quick penalties etc
No 10s - Pls make sure all your team mates are behind the 5m offside fro scrums and 10m offside lines for LOs.

I then cover a few "general points". Oddly you can sense that this is when they really start listening

"Hands On" means nothing
Always play to the whistle
Kicking the ball out of a ruck is OK (by ruck players)- except if somebody already has his hands on it
LOs - if you want a shortened one, please tell me
If there are any injuries - we will play on unless it's dangerous.

No doubt somebody will say "It isn't brief" but it really doesn't need to take long, and it's surprising how the general points nip any potential issues in the bud.


Important bit I have added in red there Taff.

It is NOT OK for players on the fringe of a ruck to reach through with their foot and kick the ball out of the opponents side of the ruck.

LAW 16DEFINITIONS
A ruck is a phase of play where one or more players from each team, who are on their feet, in physical contact, close around the ball on the ground. Open play has ended.

Players are rucking when they are in a ruck and using their feet to try to win or
keep possession of the ball, without being guilty of foul play.

16.2 JOINING A RUCK
(c) Placing a hand on another player in the ruck does not constitute binding.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Only participants in the ruck, that is players who are bound to or bound into a ruck, have the privilege of using their feet to win the ball. If the player steps through a ruck and just leans on the ruck without binding then he is offside.

SimonSmith
16-09-15, 13:09
Pretty easy really.

The PMB covers

FRs - Crouch bind set etc
No 9s - In quick and straight, quick penalties etc
No 10s - Pls make sure all your team mates are behind the 5m offside fro scrums and 10m offside lines for LOs.

I then cover a few "general points". Oddly you can sense that this is when they really start listening

"Hands On" means nothing
Always play to the whistle
Kicking the ball out of a ruck is OK - except if somebody already has his hands on it
LOs - if you want a shortened one, please tell me
If there are any injuries - we will play on unless it's dangerous.

No doubt somebody will say "It isn't brief" but it really doesn't need to take long, and it's surprising how the general points nip any potential issues in the bud.

I'll preface this with the possibly necessarily caveat that I'm not doing to give you a kicking in particular, because this will run the risk of looking like that.

But I disagree with your entire approach to this. It may be driven by the level of game that you're doing, but that runs counter to what I do and what I coach my colleagues here to do.

You've selected a few topics - ones that I suspect are hot button items for you - and spoken about them (to the whole team?). You don't cover when the ball is out, which I would wager is more important than a reminder to "always play to the whistle".

I've seen some of my referees deliver what you do, or a very similar version. Almost universally, I can see the players start to reassess the referee, and not in a good way. The mental switch seems to be " 'Always play to the whistle'? Is he being serious? What does he think we are? Chr!st this could be a long afternoon". One of my referees tells teams, even the ones at a decent level that he will penalize high tackles. Players no longer try to hold back the smirk.

As I said, it may be driven by the level you're at. At the majority of games I do - and by majority, I mean 95% - I'd lose the players if I started that one.

FR, 9, maybe 10. Cover the essential points, and done. Discipline and questions when I do the captains. I never proactively discuss law issues or things that concern me.

Taff
16-09-15, 14:09
... You've selected a few topics - ones that I suspect are hot button items for you - and spoken about them (to the whole team?). You don't cover when the ball is out, which I would wager is more important than a reminder to "always play to the whistle".
I gave the summary version rather than the exact wording, but Point 1 covers when the ball is out; the exact wording is “At a ruck Hands-On means nothing. The ball has to be lifted clear of the ruck before the ball is considered out. Clear?” Since clarifying this at the PMB I now very rarely get offside players tackling the No 9 as soon as he puts his hands on it. I still get the odd one obviously, but usually the guilty player gets pulled up by his team mates as much as he does by me. Eg “FFS Dai. He’s told you about that already”.


... I've seen some of my referees deliver what you do, or a very similar version. Almost universally, I can see the players start to reassess the referee, and not in a good way. The mental switch seems to be " 'Always play to the whistle'? Is he being serious? What does he think we are? Christ this could be a long afternoon". ... As I said, it may be driven by the level you're at. At the majority of games I do - and by majority, I mean 95% - I'd lose the players if I started that one..I was once told (probably on here) that our PMB was a “living document” ie it is meant to be adaptable and under constant review. The “Play to the whistle” Point 2 was put in after a spate of games where players would stop when there was a knock on; admittedly these were probably school games – which I still do. If I get to Level 3 (dream on) I will probably drop that one, but it takes less than 3 seconds to say and as I still get some players who stop at a knock on, I may keep it for a bit more.

Please don’t take this the wrong way, but I don’t think you will “lose the players if I started that one”. From my limited experience, we have lost most players before we even start – how often do we get a deathly hush doing a PMB? Hardly ever. In fact, after the usual PMB (FR, 9s & No 10s) when you say “A couple of general points gents” the whole room goes quiet, which suggests that’s when they really start listening. And if somebody asks a question or 2 - crack on, I've got no problem with that. Why would I have a problem with it?

crossref
16-09-15, 14:09
Taff, just a thought as the saying goes : once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times and it might be the way you ref it --

if you experience frequent incidents with players not playing to the whistle after a knock on -- I wonder maybe you have got into a habit of playing 'auto-advantage', by which I mean playing on for a few seconds after every singleknock-on even when not appropriate.

some knock ons it's immediately clear that no advantage is coming to the oppo and just peep.

(of course if you are reffing kids who are new to the game then completely different)

Rushforth
16-09-15, 19:09
(of course if you are reffing kids who are new to the game then completely different)

My game last weekend had at least half a dozen players utterly new to the game. With the visitors only being complete 15 minutes before KO (and home not long before that) I made the mistake of trusting captains.

My point is that every game should be preceded by an appropriate PMB, and that too short can be just as bad as too long.

Taff
16-09-15, 23:09
Taff, just a thought as the saying goes : once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, three times and it might be the way you ref it. If you experience frequent incidents with players not playing to the whistle after a knock on -- I wonder maybe you have got into a habit of playing 'auto-advantage', by which I mean playing on for a few seconds after every singleknock-on even when not appropriate.
Take your point Crossref, but virtually every Assessor I've had have rated the advantage as one of my strong points.

Players automatically stopping at knock-ons has been happening less and less over the last year or two. I assumed it was down to it being covered in the PMB, but perhaps I'm just getting better quality teams. :chin:

SimonSmith
17-09-15, 01:09
Please don’t take this the wrong way, but I don’t think you will “lose the players if I started that one”. From my limited experience, we have lost most players before we even start – how often do we get a deathly hush doing a PMB? Hardly ever. In fact, after the usual PMB (FR, 9s & No 10s) when you say “A couple of general points gents” the whole room goes quiet, which suggests that’s when they really start listening. And if somebody asks a question or 2 - crack on, I've got no problem with that. Why would I have a problem with it?

i appreciate how you phrase it - but I know it loses the players. When I coach, I frequently see referees give PMBs to teams I've refereed, and Ivecseen the team demeanor change. Hell, I've even had coaches (who know me) sidle up to me and ask. "What the [badword] was that?"

As I said, may be level contingent.

crossref
17-09-15, 10:09
Players automatically stopping at knock-ons has been happening less and less over the last year or two. I assumed it was down to it being covered in the PMB, but perhaps I'm just getting better quality teams. :chin:

or perhaps your habit was just a phase, and nowadays you are blowing your whistle more quickly when its clear there's no chance of an advantage :)

Drift
18-09-15, 03:09
My PMB is 3 sentences.

"Hooker left of the mark, props long binds, maintain gap on bind. Ball comes in when I am happy, questions? Captain all talk through you, see you out there."

crossref
18-09-15, 10:09
the received wisdom in the UK is that you are expected to rehearse the scrum sequence - ie to tell them explicitly that you will using Crouch Bind Set.

Taff
18-09-15, 13:09
My PMB is 3 sentences.

"Hooker left of the mark, props long binds, maintain gap on bind. Ball comes in when I am happy, questions? Captain all talk through you, see you out there."
Not even a mention of "Crouch. Bind Set"?

menace
18-09-15, 14:09
Not even a mention of "Crouch. Bind Set"?

Unless there's something new why is there really a need to tell them what they know you'll say cause they've heard a thousand times already?

Ps I expect the level drift is doing, the FR will be well aware of the call and if they didn't the coach will be cutting their match payments!

Pegleg
18-09-15, 15:09
the received wisdom in the UK is that you are expected to rehearse the scrum sequence - ie to tell them explicitly that you will using Crouch Bind Set.

It's a requirment here (Wales). I've not seen it in writing but verbally it has been made very clear to us all.

Taff
19-09-15, 00:09
Unless there's something new why is there really a need to tell them what they know you'll say cause they've heard a thousand times already?
Why? To cover your and your unions arse in the event of litigation.


It's a requirment here (Wales). I've not seen it in writing but verbally it has been made very clear to us all.
Exactly. In fact it was one of the first things we were told on the Refereeing course. I suspect it's a condition in the Unions insurance policy.

Simon Thomas
19-09-15, 17:09
Why? To cover your and your unions arse in the event of litigation.


Exactly. In fact it was one of the first things we were told on the Refereeing course. I suspect it's a condition in the Unions insurance policy.

Some years ago both WRU (Vowles [sic]) and RFU (Wilbraham) had court cases of liability resulting from referee scrum management issues, as well as other cases settled out of court. Hence the sensitivities of both Unions to PMB being done.

Drift
21-09-15, 00:09
Not even a mention of "Crouch. Bind Set"?

Not for the grade I usually do. If I am doing juniors or schools I'll change it to be more in depth, but I am usually refereeing Premier Grade in Melbourne so why should I tell them what they already know.

Also "under promising and over delivering" on that is a lot easier than telling the teams you are going FK *this* and PK *that* and then not delivering on that. You lose a lot of credibility by doing that.

menace
21-09-15, 02:09
Why? To cover your and your unions arse in the event of litigation.


Exactly. In fact it was one of the first things we were told on the Refereeing course. I suspect it's a condition in the Unions insurance policy.

Ok....so you have an undocumented and Chinese whisper legal obligation. I recall the thread on this sometime ago about the merits and pitfalls of undocumented features/instructions etc.

Do you also explain to them what your whistle will sound like when you blow it and what it means? Why not...that's an even bigger safety element than "CBS"??

I'm not saying don't explain "CBS" if you feel you have to and your Union tells you to (assuming the instructor has told you and especilally as they've not taken the momentous step to actually put it in a document that it's a requirement seems a bit odd) I'm saying it isn't enshrined down here that we must say it at a PMB especially when you hit higher level seniors. It seems that when at these levels both player and referee are there because they know what they're doing?

crossref
21-09-15, 06:09
In truth given that this requirement is not written down anywhere, it can hardly be said to be 'enshrined" here either.

If you start your referee career in England with the national training course we do, you will be told to rehearse CBS in every PMB.

But you don't need to have done that course in order to be a referee in England (you might have qualified in Wales, or Scotland, or in new Zealand or south Africa. Or thirty years ago I'm England when the course was different)

And, if, as a foreign referee you came over here for the RWC next week, and get offered a game by a society here, you won't be given any bit of paper or any other instructions telling you the local PMB requirements. So its evidently not completely critical.

Taff
21-09-15, 12:09
... Also "under promising and over delivering" on that is a lot easier than telling the teams you are going FK *this* and PK *that* and then not delivering on that. You lose a lot of credibility by doing that.
Whose promising anything? I just explain how the scrum engagement will be done. There's no mention of FKs or PKs.


... And, if, as a foreign referee you came over here for the RWC next week, and get offered a game by a society here, you won't be given any bit of paper or any other instructions telling you the local PMB requirements. So its evidently not completely critical.
And if some poor sod breaks his neck at a scrum (it happened to a mate of mine; he's still in a wheelchair 25 years on) when the legal eagles get their teeth into it, the Ref can explain to the court why he didn't think it was necessary. It would be interesting to see what the US rugby boys are required to do - given it's such a litigious country.

TigerCraig
25-09-15, 01:09
Whose promising anything? I just explain how the scrum engagement will be done. There's no mention of FKs or PKs.


And if some poor sod breaks his neck at a scrum (it happened to a mate of mine; he's still in a wheelchair 25 years on) when the legal eagles get their teeth into it, the Ref can explain to the court why he didn't think it was necessary. It would be interesting to see what the US rugby boys are required to do - given it's such a litigious country.

CBS is written into the Laws. I think anyone can reasonably expect that any one playing the game should be conversant with the Laws (if they aren't that is their own fault). As the club has said that by playing they are STE for the position then that is reinforcing that they have the knowledge.

Pre-match in my opinion should only cover things that aren't black & white law.

The only thing we have to say in our pre-match is "Do you understand the Mayday procedure", and then only in juniors, but I do it in seniors as well.

PS. "Mayday" is the emergency call used here if a scrum collapses, and has a set protocol to follow if it happens.

PPS, credit to the coaches of Leeds Grammar, when I refereed their tour match I asked the boys about it in my prematch, and they had been made aware of it and knew what to do if it occurred