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sotiras
07-10-15, 21:10
When exactly is a quick throw in option considered as marked, and no longer available?

I accept that there is a requirement for 2 from each team to form the lineout, but at what point does the QTI option disappear, with regard to players forming up on the LOT.

I recently called one as "no quick option" as there was a player on the ground within the 5m on the LOT, but actually they could probably have retired a few metres and taken it?

Any advice appreciated.

beckett50
07-10-15, 21:10
The Laws state (and I paraphrase); two players from each team, but all players approaching the line out are considered to be participating.

crossref
08-10-15, 10:10
There is a common misconception amongst players at grassroots level that a team can, on their own, stop a QTI by the oppo by forming a line. So they'll quickly 'mark' a QTI, by forming a line, and then be surpised when it still happens...

Dixie
08-10-15, 12:10
Hi Sotiras

It's a good question, and the answer isn't easy. Consider a lineout just outside the 22, with the ball won by the defence, passed back to the 10 who kicks. The ball makes it to the 10m line, where the opposing winger catches it infield, but with a foot in touch.

The law is: 19.2(c) A player must not take a quick throw-in after the lineout has formed. That law is itself informed by various provisions within Law 19, but specifically 19.8:

19.8(a) Minimum. At least two players from each team must form a lineout.
19.8(d) When the ball is in touch, every player who approaches the line of touch is presumed to do so to form a lineout.
19.8(h) Where the lineout players must stand. The front of the lineout is not less than 5 metres from the touchline. The back of the lineout is not more than 15 metres from the touchline. All lineout players must stand between these two points.
19.8(l) Two single straight lines. The lineout players of both teams form two single parallel lines each at right angles to the touchline

It is also relevant that a lineout always takes place on the Line of Touch. So in the scenario above, the line of touch is in line with where the #10 kicked the ball ("Taken Back In!"). There would need to be two players from either side, forming lines parallel to each other, in line with that spot before the QTI can be disallowed as a result of the lineout being "marked". The mass of players milling around the previous lineout do not count, as that is not the new line of touch. Nor would it count if there happened to be two from each team "marking" the position in line with where the ball was caught, as no lineout can legally form there (it not being the Line of Touch).

If the original lineout had taken place inside the 22, then the LOT would be where the ball was caught. So again, the mass of players milling around the old lineout wouldn't count as your 2 from each side. 19.8(h) makes it clear that the player more than 15m from touch, or less than 5m from touch, cannot be considered as forming the lineout.

crossref
08-10-15, 13:10
The trickiest situation to manage is when the LoT is very close to the action (eg players bundled into touch or indeed a kick straight out),
so right at the moment the ball goes out, there are already players on and near the LoT.

Does that mean the QTI simply not possible ?

Or is it only when - in our judgement - the players on the LoT make some actual actions to form a line, that the QTI is off.

CrouchTPEngage
08-10-15, 14:10
Doesn't the ball have to remain untouched? So when their coach grabs the ball out of play and hands it to his own player, shouldn't we disallow the qti?

sotiras
08-10-15, 16:10
Doesn't the ball have to remain untouched? So when their coach grabs the ball out of play and hands it to his own player, shouldn't we disallow the qti?

Yes, definitely, sadly there is a growing trend of bystanders purposefully handling the ball in order to prevent the QTI, invariably with a "Aren't I being helpful" look on their face", but in the full knowledge that they've just bought their team some time.

crossref
08-10-15, 17:10
sadly there is a growing trend of bystanders purposefully handling the ball in order to prevent the QTI, invariably with a "Aren't I being helpful" look on their face", but in the full knowledge that they've just bought their team some time.

see here for a discussion of how to deal with that... http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?19228-sub-touching-ball-to-deny-a-quick-throw .

crossref
09-10-15, 08:10
The trickiest situation to manage is when the LoT is very close to the action (eg players bundled into touch or indeed a kick straight out),
so right at the moment the ball goes out, there are already players on and near the LoT.

Does that mean the QTI simply not possible ?

Or is it only when - in our judgement - the players on the LoT make some actual actions to form a line, that the QTI is off.

I'd be genuinely interested in any thoughts on this question?

Dixie
09-10-15, 09:10
The trickiest situation to manage is when the LoT is very close to the action (eg players bundled into touch or indeed a kick straight out),
so right at the moment the ball goes out, there are already players on and near the LoT.

Does that mean the QTI simply not possible ?

Or is it only when - in our judgement - the players on the LoT make some actual actions to form a line, that the QTI is off. You are right that it probably presents the greatest challenge. The QTI is "off" when the lineout has formed. When formed, the lineout involves two straight lines parallel to each other between the 5m and 15m lines, so players milling around in the general vicinity will not cut the mustard unless the ref needs to slow things down.

When there are genuinely two from each side wary and marking each other off, then the lines are by definition straight but not necessarily parallel. However, even in the most conventional full lineout the back tends to have less of a gap than the front, allowing everyone to see the thrower. We don't (usually) say this lineout hasn't formed, so the extent to which we insist on parallel is one of those judgement things.

As you add more players to one or both sides, "straight" also becomes a relevant criterion - and once again, the extent of the straightness is down to the ref on the day. My own preference on this is to keep the QTI open until both teams have genuinely started to form up in preparation for the standard lineout - but that is solely a personal preference.

crossref
09-10-15, 10:10
I mention it because I had one a couple of games ago.
- a scrum half, inside his own 22m mis-kicked his box kick and just sliced the ball about 2m forward into touch
- so all the players in and around the ruck were basically on the line of touch, and between 5m and 15m from the line.
- but they were not in two lines, obviosuly, they are as you expect them to look from a tackle/ruck

- The oppo, given the field position, were of course very eager to take advantage of the mistake/confusion by taking a QTI ...

So - is the QTI on, because no one has formed a line out
Or was the QTI never on, becasue we have several players from each side all on the LoT.

OB..
09-10-15, 13:10
I mention it because I had one a couple of games ago.
- a scrum half, inside his own 22m mis-kicked his box kick and just sliced the ball about 2m forward into touch
- so all the players in and around the ruck were basically on the line of touch, and between 5m and 15m from the line.
- but they were not in two lines, obviosuly, they are as you expect them to look from a tackle/ruck

- The oppo, given the field position, were of course very eager to take advantage of the mistake/confusion by taking a QTI ...

So - is the QTI on, because no one has formed a line out
Or was the QTI never on, becasue we have several players from each side all on the LoT.We do not have any clear statement as to what constitutes a formed lineout for the purposes of stopping a QTI..All we have is a series of criteria that need to be met before everybody is legal in a normal lineout.

This doesn't cause a problem for a normal lineout - even if a player has chased 50m upfield , following a kick, everybody waits for him to get back.

The situation is also complicated if the lineout is not where the ball went out. Originally the ball had to be thrown straight even for a QTI, so you got players lining up to challenge for the ball where the ball went out, and not where a lineout would be formed. Did that count? I don't think the question was ever really answered.

In the absence of any clear guidelines, my instinct in your case is to stop the QTI because the situation is too confused.

Phil E
09-10-15, 13:10
If there are loads of players milling around at the LOT I tend to say "we have enough players here to form a lineout".

I know its a bit vague but it has never been questioned.

Dickie E
09-10-15, 18:10
The Laws state (and I paraphrase); two players from each team, but all players approaching the line out are considered to be participating.

I don't agree with this. If 2 players from each team are 5 metres from LoT and approaching it, I will allow QTI until such time that they reach LoT