PDA

View Full Version : #9 touching



Huck2Spit
20-10-15, 18:10
In a College women's game I did over the weekend at the third scrum of the day and first to Red, Red had thrown into the scrum. As the ball travels back and Red wins the scrum, purple 9 has her hand on red 9's hip. Red 9 gets off a bad pass. Iwhistle and award a penalty kick to Red "purple 9 playing the (wo)man without the ball". It was not an issue for the rest of the day but was I correct?
Was purple 9 offsides? even though her feet were behind the ball? Besides law 20.9(i), no holding flankers, can a scrumhalf touch their opposite? Or the scrummagers?

Rushforth
20-10-15, 18:10
10.4 (f) Playing an opponent without the ball. Except in a scrum, ruck or maul, a player who is not in possession of the ball must not hold, push or obstruct an opponent not carrying the ball.

This does not apply to (unbound) #9s at scrum. Not offside, but the call was correct for all I can see. And welcome!

Dickie E
20-10-15, 18:10
a fair call. Nothing good can come from #9s touching each other when not in possession of the ball

Iron_Lung
20-10-15, 19:10
Welcome to the forum's Huck!

I think it's something that you could manage before it becomes a PK in the first instance. If you see it, there is nothing stopping you from resetting the scrum and having a word to the #9 about contact at the scrum. Often I'll include that in a quick word anyway before the first scrum.

In this case it seems as if the contact has resulted in a bad pass. Therefore 10.4(f) applies and you made a good call. Nice one!

Dickie E
20-10-15, 19:10
If you see it, there is nothing stopping you from resetting the scrum

I'm not sure the 16 forwards would be chuffed about that.

But a sharp "hands to yourself, purple 9" would be a good preventive action.

Iron_Lung
20-10-15, 19:10
I'm not sure the 16 forwards would be chuffed about that.

But a sharp "hands to yourself, purple 9" would be a good preventive action.

I thought forwards loved resets? Keeps the ball out of the hands of those namby pamby backs?

You're right though, a sharp word early should take care of the issue with a quiet word at the next scrum.

Phil E
21-10-15, 09:10
You said

purple 9 has her hand on red 9's hip

No mention of grabbing, pushing or otherwise interfering with the Red 9.
If that is correct then it's not worth a penalty and should just be managed.

If one 9 shoves the other violently, or holds them back, then that is different, but as described not really a PK offence......bigger battles to fight, this one can be managed with a word.

Look for reasons not to blow the whistle, I would suggest this is one of those.

Dixie
21-10-15, 14:10
No mention of grabbing, pushing or otherwise interfering with the Red 9.
If that is correct then it's not worth a penalty and should just be managed.

If one 9 shoves the other violently, or holds them back, then that is different, but as described not really a PK offence......bigger battles to fight, this one can be managed with a word.

Look for reasons not to blow the whistle, I would suggest this is one of those. Much wisdom, but also a lot left unsaid. We don't know Huck's experience level, so it's worth pointing out that at the lowest levels of the game, some minor things left to fester unchecked escalate into brawls as the game gradually gets away from the novice ref. Most of the minor irritants on a pitch are instigated by, or otherwise involve, a player with 9 on the back of the shirt (do we call them blouses in the Ladies' game?). A wise novice will take action early.

The most obvious action to take is to whistle to award a penalty for the law that most nearly covers the situation. This is what Huck did, and it is not wrong - far better than leaving it to fester unchecked. As the novice ref progresses in his career, he starts to learn the art of "management" - not letting it fester, but dealing with the offence by a word in the offender's ear, letting him know the ref is onto him and won't let him get away with it again. That's not stuff for the novice - it's very definitely an intermediate skill.

Dickie E
21-10-15, 19:10
You said


No mention of grabbing, pushing or otherwise interfering with the Red 9.
If that is correct then it's not worth a penalty and should just be managed.



It appears that the contact has caused red #9 to stuff up her pass.

Pegleg
21-10-15, 20:10
Much wisdom, but also a lot left unsaid. We don't know Huck's experience level, so it's worth pointing out that at the lowest levels of the game, some minor things left to fester unchecked escalate into brawls as the game gradually gets away from the novice ref. Most of the minor irritants on a pitch are instigated by, or otherwise involve, a player with 9 on the back of the shirt (do we call them blouses in the Ladies' game?). A wise novice will take action early.

The most obvious action to take is to whistle to award a penalty for the law that most nearly covers the situation. This is what Huck did, and it is not wrong - far better than leaving it to fester unchecked. As the novice ref progresses in his career, he starts to learn the art of "management" - not letting it fester, but dealing with the offence by a word in the offender's ear, letting him know the ref is onto him and won't let him get away with it again. That's not stuff for the novice - it's very definitely an intermediate skill.



You said


No mention of grabbing, pushing or otherwise interfering with the Red 9.
If that is correct then it's not worth a penalty and should just be managed.

If one 9 shoves the other violently, or holds them back, then that is different, but as described not really a PK offence......bigger battles to fight, this one can be managed with a word.

Look for reasons not to blow the whistle, I would suggest this is one of those.

Nothing is being left to fester. Phil E is suggesting managing the situation. Of course if the players fail to learn then ping them

FlipFlop
21-10-15, 20:10
But lets look at the positives - it was spotted, sanctioned and didn't happen again. Perfect result.

Managing it away might have been better, but the desired outcome was obtained. Well done.

Pegleg
21-10-15, 21:10
But lets look at the positives - it was spotted, sanctioned and didn't happen again. Perfect result.

Managing it away might have been better, but the desired outcome was obtained. Well done.

Agreed it worked. But as the poster is asking the question, the advise is managing verbally first is a better option.

Phil E
21-10-15, 23:10
It appears that the contact has caused red #9 to stuff up her pass.

That's not how it appears to me.

Red 9 gets off a bad pass.
There is no mention that the other player caused it??

Huck2Spit
23-10-15, 03:10
Great banter and discussion, and Thanks. Agreed it could/ should have been managed with words before whistle. Purple's hand on Red (which didn't seem material in itself) did give her an edge on tackling the other scrumhalf and effecting the pass. Therefore it became material.

Iron_Lung
23-10-15, 03:10
Great banter and discussion, and Thanks. Agreed it could/ should have been managed with words before whistle. Purple's hand on Red (which didn't seem material in itself) did give her an edge on tackling the other scrumhalf and effecting the pass. Therefore it became material.

In which case good call that man...