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Rushforth
27-10-15, 16:10
Although a tackle can only take place in the field of play (15.1), defenders have the right to stop the ball from being grounded after the ball-carrier has cross the goal line.

In a very one-sided game, a sole defender attempted to stop the ball carrier from grounding the ball by holding him "chest up" on the ground in what elsewhere would be described as a tackle. Eventually - say after 2 seconds, no other defender having arrived - the ball carrier managed to twist out of the hold and C&O ground the ball.

The visiting captain politely enquired if it wasn't a "second movement", and accepted my call that it wasn't (I'd already awarded the try), which to me only happens when a player attempts to reach for the line, comes up short, and has another go.

Since it isn't a tackle, there is no imperative for "tackler" to release the BC, nor for BC to release/place the ball "immediately".

The only law I can find to support my conclusion is in 7.1: "Any player may tackle, hold or push an opponent holding the ball." and "Any player may ground the ball in in-goal." Is it as simple as that or am I being dense and missing summat?

Dixie
27-10-15, 16:10
Hi Rushforth. You are not being dense.

Once in-goal, patterns that we would ordinarily call tackle, ruck, maul or (in extreme cases) scrum all look identical to their Field-of-Play cousins, but are in fact open play. As you note, there is no obligation to release, roll away or anything else. AS there is no maul or ruck, there can be no collapsing of the maul or ruck (which is pretty likely to happen, as the attacking team needs to get the ball to ground.

You'll immediately recognise that in the absence of a whistle, these situations could turn into prolonged (and rather dangerous) wrestling matches. To prevent that, the refereeing convention is a quick whistle: ball held up, attacking 5m scrum. The two seconds you allowed doesn't sound long, but I suggest that once you are clear in your mind that the ball carrier has been prevented from making an immediate grounding, a quick whistle will be the best option all round. It gives the attack another platform, but doesn't risk the wrestlers either doing each other in or getting jumped on by their colleagues.

You are absolutely right that this was not a double movement, however. As you say, that only applies to a player downed in the FOP who has to reach to ground the ball in-goal.

Blackberry
27-10-15, 16:10
Hi Rushforth. You are not being dense.

Once in-goal, patterns that we would ordinarily call tackle, ruck, maul or (in extreme cases) scrum all look identical to their Field-of-Play cousins, but are in fact open play. As you note, there is no obligation to release, roll away or anything else. AS there is no maul or ruck, there can be no collapsing of the maul or ruck (which is pretty likely to happen, as the attacking team needs to get the ball to ground.

You'll immediately recognise that in the absence of a whistle, these situations could turn into prolonged (and rather dangerous) wrestling matches. To prevent that, the refereeing convention is a quick whistle: ball held up, attacking 5m scrum. The two seconds you allowed doesn't sound long, but I suggest that once you are clear in your mind that the ball carrier has been prevented from making an immediate grounding, a quick whistle will be the best option all round. It gives the attack another platform, but doesn't risk the wrestlers either doing each other in or getting jumped on by their colleagues.

You are absolutely right that this was not a double movement, however. As you say, that only applies to a player downed in the FOP who has to reach to ground the ball in-goal.

This type of answer is rugbyrefs.com at its best.... it's what the forums are here for.

Pegleg
27-10-15, 17:10
Concur with the above answer. Actulally I bet it was a lot less than two seconds. It probably just seemed like that.

I'd say if it looks like either player may be able to quickly ground the ball allow a little time. If not blow held up.

Womble
27-10-15, 19:10
Hi Rushforth. You are not being dense.

Once in-goal, patterns that we would ordinarily call tackle, ruck, maul or (in extreme cases) scrum all look identical to their Field-of-Play cousins, but are in fact open play. As you note, there is no obligation to release, roll away or anything else. AS there is no maul or ruck, there can be no collapsing of the maul or ruck (which is pretty likely to happen, as the attacking team needs to get the ball to ground.

You'll immediately recognise that in the absence of a whistle, these situations could turn into prolonged (and rather dangerous) wrestling matches. To prevent that, the refereeing convention is a quick whistle: ball held up, attacking 5m scrum. The two seconds you allowed doesn't sound long, but I suggest that once you are clear in your mind that the ball carrier has been prevented from making an immediate grounding, a quick whistle will be the best option all round. It gives the attack another platform, but doesn't risk the wrestlers either doing each other in or getting jumped on by their colleagues.

You are absolutely right that this was not a double movement, however. As you say, that only applies to a player downed in the FOP who has to reach to ground the ball in-goal.


Dixie, can you edit your last paragraph, a player may do as you have stated to score a try. Just for clarity please ;)

Rushforth
27-10-15, 22:10
Thank you, Dixie and all. Although it was probably no more than 2 seconds, quite likely a bit less, but certainly long enough not to be considered "immediate" in terms of the tackle law.

The "second movement" query was a red herring, but given that the captain was unable to assist in "holding up" in time also irrelevant.

In retrospect, I should have been sharper on the whistle - part of the reason I posted - rather than thinking "is there any reason not to..."

Pegleg
28-10-15, 08:10
One of our big problems - Timing! Don't blow too soon (let it breathe) BUT don't allow it to get messy either.

Dixie
28-10-15, 13:10
Dixie, can you edit your last paragraph, a player may do as you have stated to score a try. Just for clarity please ;) Too late I fear - the edit option is only available for a limited period of time.