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notoriouspb
12-11-15, 21:11
Hi,

Sincere apologies if this has been posted before,but several times during the world cup, where an attacking team had a scrum close to the opposition's try line (I believe Tonga vs NZ was one?) and had gained 2 scrum penalties, so were looking at possible card/penalty try situations, the attacking team (Tonga) had the upper hand again, when were suddenly ordered to 'use it' by the referee. Is this a valid call? I'm pretty certain it happened at least 3 ties, and by possibly higher echelon refs eg Nigel Davies. If so, why should they use it? They are going forward, have the opposition 'on the rack', and cannot surely gain by getting the ball out when they wish to keep it in?

Dickie E
12-11-15, 22:11
Hi notoriouspb and welcome to the forum.

No need to apologise for raising a recurring issue (not that I think this is one) - we do it all the time.

And a very good question/observation. As far as I am aware the 'use it' protocol applies to rucks & mauls to prevent teams winding down the clock. I don't think it applies to scrums.

I imagine a ref may call it when a scrum is partially collapsed and the ball is clearly available.

crossref
12-11-15, 22:11
I think this is the legal justification

e)

When a scrum remains stationary and the ball does not emerge immediately a further scrum is ordered at the place of the stoppage. The ball is thrown in by the team not in possession at the time of the stoppage.

(f)

When a scrum becomes stationary and does not start moving immediately, the ball must emerge immediately. If it does not a further scrum will be ordered. The ball is thrown in by the team not in possession at the time of the stoppage


A chance to use it is better for everyone than another scrum

Taff
12-11-15, 22:11
I think this is the legal justification

20.4 (e) When a scrum remains stationary and the ball does not emerge immediately a further scrum is ordered at the place of the stoppage. The ball is thrown in by the team not in possession at the time of the stoppage.

20.4 (f)When a scrum becomes stationary and does not start moving immediately, the ball must emerge immediately. If it does not a further scrum will be ordered. The ball is thrown in by the team not in possession at the time of the stoppage

A chance to use it is better for everyone than another scrum
A bit like the maul laws then. Makes sense to me.

I've seen Refs call "Use it" when the scrum is in danger of turning past the 90 degrees. It always struck me as a brilliant idea.

The Fat
12-11-15, 23:11
There is a memo/guidance somewhere.
Will have a look for it when I get a bit of time.
Bloody work.

Chris_j
13-11-15, 00:11
http://laws.worldrugby.org/?domain=9

Communication - Law 20.4(e,f)

If scrum is or becomes stationary
If ball is available (No. 8 feet)
The referee will call “use it”

crossref
13-11-15, 00:11
Sigh, all these additional Laws that are not in the Law book....

Chris_j
13-11-15, 00:11
Sigh, all these additional Laws that are not in the Law book....
I was just agreeing with your post #3 and supporting it with the latest from that source of wisdom that is World Rugby.

menace
13-11-15, 00:11
I know I've used it.. (Pardon the pun)

As explained above...I've asked the 8/9 to use it because the scrum has stopped or is turning dangerously close to 90 but they have control of the ball. It gives them an opportunity to use it before they lose it!

Chris_j
13-11-15, 00:11
"Use it" isn't in the law book, but it is good management to use it, thereby encouraging compliance with 20.4 e and f

Taff
13-11-15, 08:11
Crossref has a point. WHY isn't it in the lawbook?

Phil E
13-11-15, 09:11
Crossref has a point. WHY isn't it in the lawbook?

Because it's a management technique not a law.

crossref
13-11-15, 09:11
Because it's a management technique not a law.

just as for a maul or ruck -- where it IS in the Law book...

also it says WILL

Communication - Law 20.4(e,f)

1.If scrum is or becomes stationary
2.If ball is available (No. 8 feet)
3.The referee will call “use it”

which seems to make it a bit stronger than just a technique ..

I am hoping the real answer is that this new process at scrums was invented in May 2015, and it WILL appear in the 2016 Law Book.

OB..
13-11-15, 10:11
Crossref has a point. WHY isn't it in the lawbook?Why should it be? It is not mandatory, just an example of good communication. I can't find "Red 7, release", or ""Advantage Blue, penalty advantage" in the law book, yet such communication is widespread.

crossref
13-11-15, 11:11
Why should it be? It is not mandatory, just an example of good communication. I can't find "Red 7, release", or ""Advantage Blue, penalty advantage" in the law book, yet such communication is widespread.

IN THE LAW BOOK

16.7 (c) When the ball has been clearly won by a team at a ruck and the ball is available to be played the referee will call "Use it!" after which the ball must be played within five seconds. If the ball is not played within five seconds the referee will award a scrum and the team not in possession of the ball at the ruck is awarded the throw-in.

17.6 (g) When the ball is available to be played the referee will call "Use it!" after which the ball must be played within five seconds. If the ball is not played within five seconds the referee will award a scrum and the team not in possession of the ball is awarded the throw-in.

NOT IN THE LAW BOOK


Communication - Law 20.4(e,f)
1.If scrum is or becomes stationary
2.If ball is available (No. 8 feet)
3.The referee will call “use it”

I don't really see the difference.

The best reason for putting it in the Law book is so that people will find it ....

didds
13-11-15, 13:11
because law 16 is about the ruck, and law 17 is about the maul.

law 20 covers the scrum and its not in there.


If its in 16 & 17 and not 20, then what about the argument that says it is deliberately not in law 20? Otherwise why have it in law 17, as the cross referenced guessing could just reason that its already in law 16.

is it really that difficult to print a set aof laws that doesn't require cross referencing and guesses, that may actually be out of context?

didds

Dave Sherwin
13-11-15, 13:11
Depending on level of the game, I'll actually mention this to 9s at the PMB. As in, "If the scrum becomes static and it doesn't look like we're going anywhere, or if we're about to go round 90 I'll give you a shout - let's look to use it straight away in those circumstances, ok, otherwise I have to reset and give them the ball." Every now and then I get a, "Really?" but most of the time this is accepted.

I don't generally like law summaries in the PMB, but I find this one helpful at a certain level.

Pegleg
13-11-15, 16:11
20.4 (e) & 20.4 (f) covers the "legal requirement" perhaps WR (IRB) think we are inteligent enough to see the consistancy of application?

Yes it might be "helpful" to get all the anomalies in the law book sorted. But we have bigger problems than these.

OB..
13-11-15, 16:11
is it really that difficult to print a set aof laws that doesn't require cross referencing and guesses, that may actually be out of context?We have to deal with what we are given, knowing that it is flawed.

I have said many times that we need to know the laws but agree how to apply them where there are ambiguities, etc. Trying to draw subtle inferences from the wording is usually unhelpful, because they are deliberately not written to that sort of standard. (I doubt if any of you would be happy if they were written to the same standards as Statutes. And even then they have problems.)

crossref
13-11-15, 16:11
Yes it might be "helpful" to get all the anomalies in the law book sorted. But we have bigger problems than these.

on then other hand the IRB are constantly tinkering with the Laws / Clarifications / Guidance / Management so evidently they think there are problems to fix.

having everything in one place would be a good way to start, might help to achieve consistency across referees

Pegleg
13-11-15, 19:11
Exactly my point. Theres a lot to do. BUT the scrum law tells players what will happen if they don't use it quickly. So as Phil says it is a management tool. One we should already be mindful of. Without a re-write.

The Fat
13-11-15, 20:11
Whilst I do agree that in a perfect world, such memos/directives would be quickly added to the book, the fact is that it is a world game with competitions played all year round. Therefore, some unions are going to be mucked around a bit by the timing of such inclusions. For example, WR will often issue directives/memos/clarifications in the lead up to the Northern Hemisphere season (let's say the Aviva Premiership for example) that just happens to be in the last weeks of our domestic season down under. Sometimes these memos say that the directive is to "Have immediate effect".
With all of that in mind, getting back to the one we are talking about here re "Use it" at scrums, maybe some of the blame for referees at our level not being aware of the directive, lies with the associations/societies and the referees themselves.
Our association has a monthly education/general meeting night. At these meetings I distribute hard copies of any such memos/directives/clarifications to all of our members who bother to come to the meeting. I email ALL of the educational material and/or presentations to all of our current members (includes all of the refs who couldn't make it to or couldn't be bothered to make it to the meeting).
If a memo or clarification is issued, that information is immediately emailed to all of our members and then followed up, as above, and discussed at length at the next meeting. I know that in NZ, some associations have weekly meetings that are actually well attended.
One of the problems I encounter, is that not everyone checks their emails daily or weekly. Last season I sent an email out with information re Dangerous Tackles to our 45 registered referees and asked that they send a simple response, such as "Thanks" or "Got it" to let me know they had received and opened the email. Over the next NINE days, I received 16 replies. Conclusion? 60% either don't check their emails or didn't give enough of a rat's arse to type a one word response.
To the referees here who were unaware of the scrum "Use it" directive, does your society Education Officer deliver such information to you either by email or meetings on a regular basis? Do you make an effort to attend meetings/education nights? Do you check the WR site on a regular basis for any new clarifications or directives?
And just out of interest (for my own personal information) how often do you check your emails or would it be better to get a text message from your society urging you to check your emails when there is info to be looked at?

Dickie E
13-11-15, 20:11
Why should it be? It is not mandatory, just an example of good communication. I can't find "Red 7, release", or ""Advantage Blue, penalty advantage" in the law book, yet such communication is widespread.

I guess it is a bit like helping teams manage their lineout numbers.

Some refs: good management tool to help a team avoid an offence
Other refs: their problem. Not my job to tell them how to play the game.

OB..
13-11-15, 23:11
I guess it is a bit like helping teams manage their lineout numbers.

Some refs: good management tool to help a team avoid an offence
Other refs: their problem. Not my job to tell them how to play the game.Too much talking = white noise; too litle = poor management.

I am looking for a sensible balance.

didds
13-11-15, 23:11
Conclusion? 60% either don't check their emails or didn't give enough of a rat's arse to type a one word response.


There is a third possibility... they've never bothered to update you with their changed email addresses that they do check... so you are in effect emailing a black hole.

That's not your fault of course!

didds

The Fat
14-11-15, 01:11
There is a third possibility... they've never bothered to update you with their changed email addresses that they do check... so you are in effect emailing a black hole.

That's not your fault of course!

didds

We know that their email address is current as at the start of each season. They have to put it on their rego form so that our secretary can update his contacts list. I suppose a few people could change email addresses during the season but 60% is about 30 people and I only have one email that bounces back as unable to be delivered.

Dickie E
14-11-15, 04:11
junk folder

The Fat
14-11-15, 07:11
junk folder
Probably

Nigib
14-11-15, 12:11
And just out of interest (for my own personal information) how often do you check your emails or would it be better to get a text message from your society urging you to check your emails when there is info to be looked at?

We use Whos the Ref, and that uses email to tell me I've been appointed - if I want to keep the game, I need to accept it pdq. I'm sad enough to have a smartphone that bleeps whenever I have a new email, across 3 email addresses I use for business & personally, so if I'm emailed something by my Society I have no excuse for not reading it. I also work in IT, where receiving emails asap is necessary; there are lots of other people whose jobs don't require this, so don't check as often/rarely. And I've noticed that younger people are migrating from email to texting or facebook. All three of my children (grown-up now) rarely use email.

menace
15-11-15, 01:11
And I've noticed that younger people are migrating from email to texting or facebook. All three of my children (grown-up now) rarely use email.

And you're behind the times already....facebook is out...if it's not 'snapchat' or 'Instagram' then it never happened as far as the younglings are concerned.

If we could just get our Australian appointment system to either send a text or snapchat then I'm sure we'd have better success with appointments being accepted by those under 21!

The Fat
15-11-15, 01:11
And you're behind the times already....facebook is out...if it's not 'snapchat' or 'Instagram' then it never happened as far as the younglings are concerned.

If we could just get our Australian appointment system to either send a text or snapchat then I'm sure we'd have better success with appointments being accepted by those under 21!

My head hurts

crossref
15-11-15, 09:11
If you have a smart phone then all these things are exactly the same, when a new one arrives your phone bleeps. You don't have to 'check' your email any more than you check your snapchat

The Fat
15-11-15, 10:11
If you have a smart phone then all these things are exactly the same, when a new one arrives your phone bleeps. You don't have to 'check' your email any more than you check your snapchat

My head hurts

ChrisR
15-11-15, 10:11
Smartphone? Hahahahaha. I don't get cellphone service, TV and even the mailman won't deliver.

Phil E
15-11-15, 12:11
Smartphone? Hahahahaha. I don't get cellphone service, TV and even the mailman won't deliver.

you need to love to a modern country :biggrin: