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Rushforth
07-12-15, 19:12
I made a mistake as a TJ yesterday. The side in possession had managed to keep the ball in play (90%+ likely they did, and I'm not interested in the <10% chance I was right after all) and raised my flag too soon.

Ref whistled immediately, presumably expecting the ball carrier to be jostled into touch much as I too had.

I recommended a scrum restart for the attacking side (BC was in oppo half, so no chance for confusion) to the (relatively inexperienced) ref, and there were no complaints.

There was no maul; the ball-carrier had what looked like a smother-tackler assisted by another defender.

The question: what would be correct decision if an AR makes the same error, and the (experienced) referee also whistles quickly?

Dickie E
07-12-15, 20:12
For me, once flag is up its a lineout.

crossref
07-12-15, 20:12
Isn't this a stoppage for an irregularity not covered by laws?
So I'd give scrum to team in possession

And a jug from the idiot touch judge :)

ctrainor
07-12-15, 21:12
Well done for admitting you made a mistake and well done to the teams for accepting it.
Definitely in most clubs you'd be dick of the day and in the post match drink off.
Scrum attacking seems the right call to me

crossref
07-12-15, 21:12
(d) Scrum after any other stoppage. After any other stoppage or irregularity not covered by Law, the team that was moving forward before the stoppage throws in the ball. If neither team was moving forward, the attacking team throws in the ball.

Rushforth
07-12-15, 22:12
(d) Scrum after any other stoppage. After any other stoppage or irregularity not covered by Law, the team that was moving forward before the stoppage throws in the ball. If neither team was moving forward, the attacking team throws in the ball.

Thanks for helping me find 20.4 (d).

I'll be buying the ref a drink ;)

Taffy
07-12-15, 22:12
Ouch. Feel for you Rushforth. The first ever match I waved a flag for I made a right horlicks of it straight from the kick off.

I think its that funny feeling of many minutes of zero activity and then all of a sudden things burst into life on your line. Arghghgh!

Well done one for fessing up! Don't let it put you off.

Taff
07-12-15, 22:12
Isn't this a stoppage for an irregularity not covered by laws? So I'd give scrum to team in possession.
+1. You can't very well give a LO if the ball wasn't it touch, but from my limited experience if you admit a mistake and explain the logic behind the restart, teams are very forgiving. Eg "Sorry boys. The touch judge reckons he boobed. Scrum down - attacking team ball". :redface:


Thanks for helping me find 20.4 (d).
Never ever forget 20.4(d) it will get you out of the poop more often than you want to admit to. :biggrin:

leaguerefaus
07-12-15, 23:12
To be quite frank, if no one would realise, I wouldn't go admitting to that mistake. If they would, scrum moving forward.

pwhaling
07-12-15, 23:12
If you watch the Canada vs Italy WRC match, you still have a lineout and Italy gets the ball. :(

Pegleg
08-12-15, 11:12
I think the easiest option is the line out.

crossref
08-12-15, 11:12
I think the easiest option is the line out.

so blue ball carrier is NOT in touch ... and it's a red lineout?

I think that's rather unfair to blue!

for me -- blue scrum

leaguerefaus
08-12-15, 11:12
As a side note, as a referee, if my TJ / AR put his flag up and then told me the person wasn't out, I'd be pretty damn pissed off.

crossref
08-12-15, 12:12
I once had an idiot TJ who put his flag up to signal a try (in the corner).

Obviously I awarded a line out.
TJ said 'No, he wasn't in touch! it was a try!'
'but you put your flag up?'
'sorry'

I gave the try.

Taff
08-12-15, 13:12
I once had an idiot TJ who put his flag up to signal a try (in the corner).
Easily done; I've done it.

Player went over in the corner to score. Instinctively I put my hand up to indicate a try ... forgetting that I was a TJ and had a flag in it. The Ref was OK about it though. Sorry. :redface:

crossref
08-12-15, 13:12
the key thing for the ref to think of is: to make sure that the coaches and subs for the defending team, who are standing on the far touchline and clearly saw the flag, all understand what happened.
Otherwise they can become quite agitated, I found :)

Pegleg
08-12-15, 13:12
so blue ball carrier is NOT in touch ... and it's a red lineout?

I think that's rather unfair to blue!

for me -- blue scrum

There's no happy solution. and the side going forward could be red, of course despite Bblue being the ball carrier etc.

"line out called guys we'll go with that." Followed by a suitable word with the guy running the flag.

tim White
08-12-15, 14:12
A particular favourite of mine is TJ indicating the offside lines for the backs at scrum or lineout by holding his flag out horizontally- a perfect 'foul play' signal. So far not seen a ref blow for it -but it's only a matter of time. I tend to ask them 'not with the flag, please' and strangely they all seem to realise the mistake. :shrug:

didds
08-12-15, 14:12
There's no happy solution. and the side going forward could be red, of course despite Bblue being the ball carrier etc.

"line out called guys we'll go with that." Followed by a suitable word with the guy running the flag.

... who now knows that he can get "his side" out of the mire if he so chooses to do so via his flag. At least once anyway before you have him replaced.

Does football use potentially partisan team members to run the lines?



didds

Phil E
08-12-15, 15:12
There's a few people on this thread that shouldn't live in glass houses.

We have all made mistakes. The key is to be able to learn from them.......not have the ref growl at you.

Dixie
08-12-15, 15:12
For me, once flag is up its a lineout.

You have the advantage of qualified TJ's (who may in fact be AR's). Over here, the guy with the flag is a pressed man from one side or the other, who was chatting up a team mate's girlfriend just before the incident with only half an eye on the game. I've had a situation where a spiral kick crossed the line high in the air, while clearly beginning to hook back infield. The TJ put up his flag, and I called Play On! Some players stopped on seeing the flag, others kept going. Unsurprisingly, the ones who kept going were generally from one team, while the ones that stopped were generally from the other. Guess which team was attacking?

I don't see how you can go with the lineout when the ball is caught 3m infield. In the UK where AR's are rare ... overrule TJ's whenever they make an obvious cock-up, support them (and thank them) on the close calls.

Pegleg
08-12-15, 15:12
... who now knows that he can get "his side" out of the mire if he so chooses to do so via his flag. At least once anyway before you have him replaced.

Does football use potentially partisan team members to run the lines?

didds

IF I felt it was cheating as opposed to an accident I would deal accordingly. We are their to make calls. Sometimes that is to "go with it" but if your plonker is being pulled then deal with it.

didds
08-12-15, 16:12
he only has to do it once though...

didds

4eyesbetter
08-12-15, 16:12
... who now knows that he can get "his side" out of the mire if he so chooses to do so via his flag. At least once anyway before you have him replaced.

Does football use potentially partisan team members to run the lines?


Yes, although as my old Referees' Secretary said, "I will never object to any of my referees who won't use club linesmen, because they're all cheats." I only had to do about half a dozen games (all of them county cup) where I was obliged to use club linesmen and wouldn't you know it, all of them had significant problems in that were created by a club linesman being shite. Coo, slap me vitals, etc. Glad I chucked it in.

In community RL in the south we generally do without team TJs, and everyone just gets on with it.

crossref
08-12-15, 16:12
Yes, although as my old Referees' Secretary said, "I will never object to any of my referees who won't use club linesmen, because they're all cheats." I only had to do about half a dozen games (all of them county cup) where I was obliged to use club linesmen and wouldn't you know it, all of them had significant problems in that were created by a club linesman being shite. Coo, slap me vitals, etc. Glad I chucked it in.

In community RL in the south we generally do without team TJs, and everyone just gets on with it.

maybe I am naive, but I don't think the club TJs I use each week are biased.

they may not always be paying attention, and they certainly can't solve all those problems where the ball crosses the plane-of-touch, with players jumping from one side to the other to simultaneously bat it in different directions... but in general terms I think they watch for the ball or player to go into touch and give me an honest opinion. TJs often call touch on their own players in tight calls.

Of course I may be a dupe, but from my perspective I'd always rather have club TJs (often a sub) than no TJ at all.

Paule23
08-12-15, 19:12
I agree with Crossref on this, I'd much rather have a club TJ than none at all. There are lots of difficult things to refereeing, but seeing whether the ball is over the touchline or not is nigh on impossible most of the time without a TJ.

I've only got limited experience so far, but I've not come across any particularly biassed clubs TJs. A few not paying attention or not really knowing what they are doing, but no outright bias. Pretty honest bunch so far really.

Taffy
08-12-15, 20:12
Bearing in mind this is Devon, last year I had a touch judge on a disability scooter......

Little dog on his platform, one hand waving flag and the other revving the throttle - "I won't do the kicks if you don't mind Sir"...

All match I could not stop laughing when I saw him.....epic, absolutely epic - and he kept up with play .....

Better than the one from South Hams who disappeared mid match and then came back waving the flag "I had to put the tea urn on sir". Honestly sometimes you just could not make it up...

Taff
08-12-15, 20:12
Bearing in mind this is Devon, last year I had a touch judge on a disability scooter....
Not doubting his ability as a TJ, but would have safety concerns with a mobility scooter so close to the touch line.

How often to TJs get clattered? About once every 2-3 games I'd guess. Being bundled into a mobility scooter can't be fun.

Pegleg
08-12-15, 20:12
he only has to do it once though...

didds

If I felt he was cheating he would not get away with it once.

Ronald
09-12-15, 06:12
Glad to hear we here in Johannesburg aren't the only refs with TJ problems. We generally ref high school (u/14 to u/19) games and club games. The only people to have AR's will be the 1st team refs in either school or club games, the rest make do with a TJ from each side. Some schools and clubs will have a person that always takes the flag, and generally they are ok and fairly honest. I did have one incident at a school where a teacher took the flag and started shouting abuse at me. Promptly stopped the match and had him replaced!

Wedgie
09-12-15, 11:12
Generally I find club TJs OK, if a little useless at times. I try and remember to say to them (especially if they are the subs in youth games) "Just stick your flag up when and where the ball crosses the line and if you can see if the ball bounces (from kicks) in the field or on or beyond the line, then that would be great." And, to be honest, the latter piece is a bonus that I try not to have to rely upon.

I once watched a ref in a crucial youth game ask the club coaches to "help" spot offences and bring them to his attention - complete disaster that he abandoned in the second half.

TigerCraig
09-12-15, 11:12
I still don't getvhow the UK have such an issue in getting ar's at games when here as a very minor sport we manage. Pretty simple. No qualified ar you get docked points and potentially fined. Problem sorted.

crossref
09-12-15, 11:12
I still don't getvhow the UK have such an issue in getting ar's at games when here as a very minor sport we manage. Pretty simple. No qualified ar you get docked points and potentially fined. Problem sorted.

but that's still a club-appointed 'AR' right ? In England that's what we mean by a club TJ.
I don't think there is any issue getting those in club 1st XV games, but at 3rds and 4ths, there can be, especially from the away club who might turn up with 15 players and no coach, let alone a TJ.

In my games it's very rare for me to actually be without TJs -- one way or another I find volunteers (if the away team really don't have anyone, the home club will generally do both touchlines) but the TJs are usually the subs, or the coach, or the player with an injury who has turned up to watch. That sort of thing.



When we talk about having ARs, in England we are talking about the Society sending a team of three officials, which is only done for high levels, or for important games, like Cup Finals.

SimonSmith
09-12-15, 13:12
I still don't getvhow the UK have such an issue in getting ar's at games when here as a very minor sport we manage. Pretty simple. No qualified ar you get docked points and potentially fined. Problem sorted.

You guys do the upward roll, though, don't you? Start matches at 10, and the referees from the earlier matches turn to AR duty.

In the UK, last time I looked, adults all kicked off at the same time on Saturday. Kids and Ladies on a Sunday. The Aus model doesn't work

crossref
09-12-15, 13:12
You guys do the upward roll, though, don't you? Start matches at 10, and the referees from the earlier matches turn to AR duty.

In the UK, last time I looked, adults all kicked off at the same time on Saturday. Kids and Ladies on a Sunday. The Aus model doesn't work

yes, plus 1st / 2nd / 3rd / 4th might all be playing at different locations. Obviously on average half at home, half away, but it's not synced - each team is in a different competition of league, and one week everyone might be at home, the next week only one team, or none

Camquin
09-12-15, 15:12
Also I am not sure how Australia mange travel.

In the UK matches were Saturday afternoons, because people worked Saturday morning - though that has not been universal for a generation at least.

Without lights it is hard to kick off much after 2pm in December or January. You might fit games in at 10 and 12 but the last one risks getting a pitch so cut up as to be unplayable.

So everyone traditionally plays on separate pitches and finishes at the same time so they can meet up in the bar.

But as crossref says we do not have coordinated fixtures for the different sides in a club so they can be heading to the four winds.

Where two teams happen to go to the same club, they may want to share a coach (bus not trainer) and that means they do not want to hang around for hours before or after their games - so prefer the kick off at roughly the same time, perhaps with a small stagger to reduce pressure on the showers.

Phil E
09-12-15, 15:12
so prefer the kick off at roughly the same time, perhaps with a small stagger to reduce pressure on the showers.

Surely staggering would increase the shower pressure :biggrin:

Rushforth
09-12-15, 16:12
Interesting debate :)

Dutch clubs only rarely have two full pitches available to them; those that do tend to have 1st XVs in the premier division, and even then struggle for capacity. Similarly, trained 'ARs' are only enforced at premier division level (100 euro fine for not providing, mind!) although I've done the course myself without being from such a club.

Sunday (senior) KO's are almost always 14:30 for team with highest priority, preceded by 13:00 for 2nd XV if both at home. All clubs have decent floodlights for training purposes which can be used for 16:00 KO, but 11:30 tends to be preferred for 3rd XV unless it would be uncomfortable for opponents.

The worst AR I had began with "I'm a referee myself" before the match, so I gave him a nice leading/trailing/triangulation briefing, but he only complained about home 6, 8, whatever whilst the side he was with weren't wearing numbers.

Far more often do I brief a TJ to stand "behind his post" for conversions beforehand and have to tell them "in line with the ball" (as opposed to parallel to touch, on the DBL). At least it separates chaff....

Lee Lifeson-Peart
09-12-15, 16:12
I once had an idiot TJ who put his flag up to signal a try (in the corner).

Obviously I awarded a line out.
TJ said 'No, he wasn't in touch! it was a try!'
'but you put your flag up?'
'sorry'

I gave the try.

I've had that. He used to lurk on here but doesn't now.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
09-12-15, 16:12
Does football use potentially partisan team members to run the lines?



didds

My mate referees football. They gave up having "team reps" running the line years ago as they couldn't rely on them not cheating. They run the line at the left back and just flagged their opponents offside at every through ball.

He even had one try flagging for offside from a corner!!

All that leaves is fair but sometimes piss poor decisions but hey they get the officiating they deserve.

OB..
09-12-15, 17:12
But as crossref says we do not have coordinated fixtures for the different sides in a club so they can be heading to the four winds.In some CBs their lower XVs play in the main leagues, so I once checked to see if they were co-ordinating the teams. It looked as if they generated the fixtures for each league independently using their standard Berger Lite algorithm.

I suggested to the RFU Competitions people that modern software would easily solve the problem, but they weren't interested. Surely some major company must already have the programs and number-crunching facility to do a once a year run for all RFU competitions? Suitable publicity might even persuade them to do it for free.

crossref
09-12-15, 18:12
where we are the competitions are all organised by different people.
For instance 1st XV might play in RFU League..
2nd XV in the Zoo Shield
3rd XV in the Middlessex Merit

and other variations..

all with different organisers.

Dickie E
09-12-15, 20:12
and I believe in England you can only AR if you've been formally appointed. So if Nigel Owens was out walking his dog & offered to run touch, he wouldn't be able to be an AR. Over here, as long as you're qualified, you can be an AR.

crossref
09-12-15, 23:12
and I believe in England you can only AR if you've been formally appointed. So if Nigel Owens was out walking his dog & offered to run touch, he wouldn't be able to be an AR. Over here, as long as you're qualified, you can be an AR.

I think I'd take the risk and appoint him myself
Or more properly, if you happen to spot Jerome Garces and and Nigel Owens on your touchline, you could call the society and ask them to quickly make two appointments.

menace
09-12-15, 23:12
I think I'd take the risk and appoint him myself
Or more properly, if you happen to spot Jerome Garces and and Nigel Owens on your touchline, you could call the society and ask them to quickly make two appointments.

Not a chance in hell would I allow them to AR for me.....they will only end up trying to referee the game! They wouldn't be able to help themselves.

crossref
10-12-15, 00:12
and I believe in England you can only AR if you've been formally appointed. So if Nigel Owens was out walking his dog & offered to run touch, he wouldn't be able to be an AR. Over here, as long as you're qualified, you can be an AR.

What's interesting to me about this is the trust that is given. In England, as you can see from the comments, we don't entirely trust club appointed TJs. And yet in Australia you trust club appointed ARs.. That's intriguing. Assuming your system works, you have to wonder what's got wrong for us.

Dickie E
10-12-15, 01:12
What's interesting to me about this is the trust that is given. In England, as you can see from the comments, we don't entirely trust club appointed TJs. And yet in Australia you trust club appointed ARs.. That's intriguing. Assuming your system works, you have to wonder what's got wrong for us.

You soon get a feel for whether or not a clubbie is trustworthy

Dickie E
10-12-15, 01:12
in UK, if 2 ARs are appointed but only 1 turns up, what do you do? Have 1 AR and 1 TJ?

Dixie
10-12-15, 07:12
and I believe in England you can only AR if you've been formally appointed. So if Nigel Owens was out walking his dog & offered to run touch, he wouldn't be able to be an AR. Over here, as long as you're qualified, you can be an AR.


I think I'd take the risk and appoint him myself
Or more properly, if you happen to spot Jerome Garces and and Nigel Owens on your touchline, you could call the society and ask them to quickly make two appointments.

A cautionary tale on exactly that point:

One year, a team near me (not quite the closest - the next town) were doing quite well and I was unappointed on the weekend they played a County Cup semi-final at home, so I went and watched the game. Asked the home coach if I could relieve him of the burden of running the line, and he agreed. As with the Away side flagsman, I was of course a TJ rather than an AR.

Some time in the second half, all hell broke loose from a ruck 5m infield on my side. It started with an Away flanker putting a haymaker on an offside home flanker who was getting away with murder, and then escalated. The ref's view was obscured by the ruckers - some of whom were actually on their feet!

Ref dealt with it well - whistle, step back, observe who is running in from a distance, try to remember who threw the worst punches - until he decided to ask me what started it and whether a card was warranted. I was reluctant as I would be unable to write any report and his report could not really admit to approaching a TJ. Ref wanted to be able to get one from each side off for 10, so I gave him the number. It didn't go down well with the Away team, whose on TJ had a few people he wanted to report. Ref lost the goodwill of the Away side, and struggled to hold it together thereafter.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
10-12-15, 07:12
Not a chance in hell would I allow them to AR for me.....they will only end up trying to referee the game! They wouldn't be able to help themselves.

Try "I don't believe we've met. I'm the referee. Now go over there and wave your flag when it goes into touch"

Dickie E
10-12-15, 08:12
A cautionary tale on exactly that point:

One year, a team near me (not quite the closest - the next town) were doing quite well and I was unappointed on the weekend they played a County Cup semi-final at home, so I went and watched the game. Asked the home coach if I could relieve him of the burden of running the line, and he agreed. As with the Away side flagsman, I was of course a TJ rather than an AR.

Some time in the second half, all hell broke loose from a ruck 5m infield on my side. It started with an Away flanker putting a haymaker on an offside home flanker who was getting away with murder, and then escalated. The ref's view was obscured by the ruckers - some of whom were actually on their feet!

Ref dealt with it well - whistle, step back, observe who is running in from a distance, try to remember who threw the worst punches - until he decided to ask me what started it and whether a card was warranted. I was reluctant as I would be unable to write any report and his report could not really admit to approaching a TJ. Ref wanted to be able to get one from each side off for 10, so I gave him the number. It didn't go down well with the Away team, whose on TJ had a few people he wanted to report. Ref lost the goodwill of the Away side, and struggled to hold it together thereafter.

I understand that you are constrained by your rules but they are bad rules. Bit like an off-duty copper walking away from a crime cos he's clocked off. YMMV

FlipFlop
10-12-15, 08:12
I think the main issue in England (and lots of other places) is that there is no "proof" of being a trained TJ/AR or Referee. Yes there might be a certificate, but doing a course 10 years ago and doing nothing inbetween doesn't make you a ref or AR.

Some of the worst coaches/ref critics start off with "I'm a ref you know, and...." - and if you dig into it a bit, they did a mini reffing course 15 years ago when their kid was playing U8 tag.

A club TJ has no requirement to be trained.

Over here we try and get TO3s to the top level games, but have had to change the policy on the level of ref we appoint as AR. Too many of the new refs/lower levels, were not able to be a good enough AR to justify the cost to the teams of the extra bodies, or to the Society for the extra travel expense. They missed the crucial issues, or couldn't provide numbers, or....

Pegleg
10-12-15, 09:12
I think I'd take the risk and appoint him myself
Or more properly, if you happen to spot Jerome Garces and and Nigel Owens on your touchline, you could call the society and ask them to quickly make two appointments.

We can't do the first. Any calls leading to cards would be inadmissable so the cardi would fall. Although, in the case of a RC, at least the prat is off the pitch.

The second is perfect. We can do that. Just as if I was at the park to watch a game and the ref did not turn up a quick call to the appointment officer could get me appointed.

The Fat
10-12-15, 09:12
I think the main issue in England (and lots of other places) is that there is no "proof" of being a trained TJ/AR or Referee. Yes there might be a certificate, but doing a course 10 years ago and doing nothing inbetween doesn't make you a ref or AR.

Some of the worst coaches/ref critics start off with "I'm a ref you know, and...." - and if you dig into it a bit, they did a mini reffing course 15 years ago when their kid was playing U8 tag.
.

At least we have a MyRugby Card that has current qualifications and expiry dates (although not necessarily completely up to date if a new accreditation has been obtained in between card issue dates ).
Luckily, in my area, we all pretty much know each other and all of our ARs would have their full kit with them 99% of the time.

Dixie
11-12-15, 08:12
I understand that you are constrained by your rules but they are bad rules. Bit like an off-duty copper walking away from a crime cos he's clocked off. YMMV

So do you ever end up with a TJ on one touchline and an AR on the other? That se to me to be a problem in the making.

Dickie E
11-12-15, 09:12
So do you ever end up with a TJ on one touchline and an AR on the other? That se to me to be a problem in the making.

Sure, all the time. What's the problem? :shrug:

The Fat
11-12-15, 09:12
So do you ever end up with a TJ on one touchline and an AR on the other? That se to me to be a problem in the making.

I've had that situation on a few occasions and not had a problem. I get the AR to take the sideline where the team benches are (which is almost always the crowd side as well) so that he can look after subs etc.
If I know who the TJ is early enough, I just ask him for touch decisions and successful kicks at goal only and that the AR will chat to him behind the posts as to positioning/agreeing before raising his/her flag. This way the TJ gets a little coaching from the AR and hopefully the TJ will be keen to do the job again.
I have also been in the position of being the AR in this situation as well. I talk to the TJ as much as possible (always on the hunt for recruits). As either the ref or the AR, I always make sure to thank the TJ (and get my flag back).

As for the OP, I have over-ruled a TJ's decision re a player in touch. Ball in field of play, blue winger running down right hand touch line with right foot in touch and left foot in field of play as he kicks a rolling/bouncing ball with his left foot to keep it in play. TJ put his flag up, I called "Play on". A little further down field the winger knocked-on while attempting to gather the bouncing ball now on about the 5m line.
I blew for the knock-on however, I went back to where the TJ had indicated "in-touch" to confirm my decision to play-on with him. A quick explanation to captains as we headed back for the scrum.
TJ had a chat with me after the game and wanted to make sure he fully understood the "player in touch ball in field of play" thing. He was genuinely happy to learn that part of the law. I have seen the same guy run touch a few times since. Hoping to get him to take up the whistle.

crossref
11-12-15, 09:12
As for the OP, I have over-ruled a TJ's decision re a player in touch. Ball in field of play, blue winger running down right hand touch line with right foot in touch and left foot in field of play as he kicks a rolling/bouncing ball with his left foot to keep it in play. TJ put his flag up, I called "Play on".

it's quite a big deal to call play on when the flag goes up, as many players may have stopped already...

The Fat
11-12-15, 10:12
it's quite a big deal to call play on when the flag goes up, as many players may have stopped already...

I was close to play and clearly saw the ball was not in touch. A loud call of "Play on".
Any player who then stops and complains that the flag was up = bad luck for them.
What if the winger hadn't knocked on and had regathered to score a try but was then incorrectly brought back for a line out to the opposition. That would be a big deal.

crossref
11-12-15, 10:12
I was close to play and clearly saw the ball was not in touch. A loud call of "Play on".
Any player who then stops and complains that the flag was up = bad luck for them.
What if the winger hadn't knocked on and had regathered to score a try but was then incorrectly brought back for a line out to the opposition. That would be a big deal.

it's true that an incorrect flag may cost one team a try.

but it's also true that the confusion caused by a clear flag, but a call of play-on may gift one team a try ...


Not everyone on the pitch will hear the play-on call, and I have sympathy for players who stop when the TJ puts his flag up.

Phil E
11-12-15, 10:12
One of the problems I have is that the Club TJ forgets to put his flag up, or only puts it up when he finally gets to the line of touch.

So I see a player near the line, a few shouts, I look at the TJ (who is behind play) and his arm is down.
I carry on then look back again and he is standing at the point of in-touch with his arm up (with or without flag).

Grrrrrrrrrr

OB..
11-12-15, 12:12
it's true that an incorrect flag may cost one team a try.

but it's also true that the confusion caused by a clear flag, but a call of play-on may gift one team a try ...


Not everyone on the pitch will hear the play-on call, and I have sympathy for players who stop when the TJ puts his flag up.What happened to "play the whistle"?
Another good reason to obey the law requiring the referee to whistle to indicate that the ball is in touch.

If the referee sees a TJ get it wrong, I expect him to over-rule.

crossref
11-12-15, 12:12
What happened to "play the whistle"?.

well, OB.. as you say lots of referees don't always whistle when the ball is in touch.

but also a TJ flag is kinda like a whistle, it's a signal from an official, and it's a signal that a referee would go back and return to even if he missed it at the time. It's not like - say - a knock on, where if the ref missed it, well, he missed it.

So I have a lot of empathy for a player who stops when a TJ flag goes up.

Dickie E
11-12-15, 19:12
Sure, all the time. What's the problem? :shrug:

My question was not intended to be rhetorical.

OB..
11-12-15, 23:12
well, OB.. as you say lots of referees don't always whistle when the ball is in touch.They should.


but also a TJ flag is kinda like a whistle, no it isn't it's a signal from an official,no he isn't and it's a signal that a referee would go back and return to even if he missed it at the time. It's not like - say - a knock on, where if the ref missed it, well, he missed it.

[quote]So I have a lot of empathy for a player who stops when a TJ flag goes up.As you may have gathered, I have none.

leaguerefaus
12-12-15, 04:12
As you may have gathered, I have none.
Take your referee's hat off a minute, champ. I'm yet to meet a player who wouldn't stop when the TJ signals touch. And fair enough too IMO. Players should be able to assume that a TJ has a basic level of competence.

The Fat
12-12-15, 07:12
Take your referee's hat off a minute, champ. I'm yet to meet a player who wouldn't stop when the TJ signals touch. And fair enough too IMO. Players should be able to assume that a TJ has a basic level of competence.

If the TJ has been plucked from the crowd and is the one who finally gives in and reluctantly takes the flag and trudges over to the far side touch line, it would be dangerous for players to assume that he has ANY idea of what he is doing.
If we have a guy who volunteers, and then jumps the gun by raising his flag before the ball has gone into touch (and we all know what a gem Law 19 is don't we?) and the referee, who is close by (and let's be clear here, the ref is not going to over-rule the TJ if he is some distance away and in a position where his play on call may not be heard by those close to the ball), gives a loud shout of "PLAY ON", the players who have a whinge will get no sympathy from me.

Would you be happy to have a first time TJ make 3 incorrect decisions during a game and have the ref go along with it even if he can clearly see the TJ got it wrong?

It would be better to have a friendly/respectful chat with him along the lines of, "Jumped the gun a little bit there. Don't worry about the players, just give yourself time to make sure the ball is clearly out before you raise your flag. You're doing a good job".

leaguerefaus
12-12-15, 07:12
If the TJ has been plucked from the crowd and is the one who finally gives in and reluctantly takes the flag and trudges over to the far side touch line, it would be dangerous for players to assume that he has ANY idea of what he is doing.
If we have a guy who volunteers, and then jumps the gun by raising his flag before the ball has gone into touch (and we all know what a gem Law 19 is don't we?) and the referee, who is close by (and let's be clear here, the ref is not going to over-rule the TJ if he is some distance away and in a position where his play on call may not be heard by those close to the ball), gives a loud shout of "PLAY ON", the players who have a whinge will get no sympathy from me.

Would you be happy to have a first time TJ make 3 incorrect decisions during a game and have the ref go along with it even if he can clearly see the TJ got it wrong?

It would be better to have a friendly/respectful chat with him along the lines of, "Jumped the gun a little bit there. Don't worry about the players, just give yourself time to make sure the ball is clearly out before you raise your flag. You're doing a good job".
I'm saying I understand why players stop when the TJ raises his flag.

Quite frankly I think nearly any moron should be able to raise a flag when someone steps out. Obviously there are some cases in union where this does become a little confusing due to the strange touch laws.

Blackberry
12-12-15, 09:12
One of the problems I have is that the Club TJ forgets to put his flag up, or only puts it up when he finally gets to the line of touch.

So I see a player near the line, a few shouts, I look at the TJ (who is behind play) and his arm is down.
I carry on then look back again and he is standing at the point of in-touch with his arm up (with or without flag).

Grrrrrrrrrr

Me too, so now when I speak briefly to my touch judges I say "No matter where you are, as soon as you see the ball in touch stick your flag up... even if you're 50 metres away, just stick it up "as soon as"

Taffy
12-12-15, 10:12
At my grass roots level I rarely have a touch judge with much of a clue. I do however make a point of seeing them before hand and if they look particularly young and/or clueless saying "As high as you can with the flag please and I will always go with you, your call". And then I always thank them and thank them again after the match.

But it seems to me that the least the club could do at say Level 10 and above provide a reasonably clued up guy to do a job that can be pretty important. I liken it to a battle in a war where there are huge periods of nothing and boredom followed by sudden activity which as a touch judge ends up with everyone looking at you saying "What happened there then?".

A thankless task I fear...

crossref
12-12-15, 11:12
They should.


it's a signal from an official,no he isn't.

Oh yes he is!

DEFINITIONS
Every match is under the control of Match Officials who consist of the referee and two touch judges or assistant referees

beckett50
12-12-15, 11:12
One of the problems I have is that the Club TJ forgets to put his flag up, or only puts it up when he finally gets to the line of touch.

So I see a player near the line, a few shouts, I look at the TJ (who is behind play) and his arm is down.
I carry on then look back again and he is standing at the point of in-touch with his arm up (with or without flag).

Grrrrrrrrrr

A common problem with ClubTJs; and one of which you (and your fellow brethren) are all aware. That being the case why not address it when the ClubTJ comes and introduces himself pre-match to inform you that he his the TJ by saying words along the line of "as soon as you judge the ball to be in touch - irrespective of whether you are up with the line of play - put your flag up so I can see it"

Of course, if you disagree with his assessment of the ball being in touch, e.g. player pats the ball back into play legally, you can give a loud shout of "Play on! Player landed in the field of play" etc and have a word at the next stoppage/lineout on his/her side.

I appreciate that this approach falls flat on its arse when the guy running touch is the FR replacement who is waiting to join the fry and will forget to pass over the flag when he so does :sad:

crossref
12-12-15, 11:12
Would you be happy to have a first time TJ make 3 incorrect decisions during a game and have the ref go along with it even if he can clearly see the TJ got it wrong?
.

we are talking about the specific scenario where a TJ raises his flag, and the referee happens to be positioned such that he can clearly see WHY the TJ raised the flag AND can see that the TJ is clearly wrong.

So this isn't likely to happen three times

but if it did, we have a fiasco in the making whatever we do.
No of course I wouldn't be happy with a TJ wrongly stopping the game three times.
but I'd suggest that if in a single game TJ flag goes up, and you shouted PLAY ON, three times.... then this would also be very uncomfortable for everyone. I don't think you'd have a happy 30 players on the field.

I'd suggest if it happened twice you'd replace the TJ

beckett50
12-12-15, 11:12
Oh yes he is!

DEFINITIONS
Every match is under the control of Match Officials who consist of the referee and two touch judges or assistant referees

In the traditions of pantomime "Oh no he isn't" because he hasn't been properly appointed to the match by the organising authority. They don't have the power of the Flag nor do they have the authority to be consulted on aspects of foul play etc.

That is not to say that he shouldn't be accorded your protection should the crowd/players/coaches get on his back.

crossref
12-12-15, 11:12
In the traditions of pantomime "Oh no he isn't" because he hasn't been properly appointed to the match by the organising authority. They don't have the power of the Flag nor do they have the authority to be consulted on aspects of foul play etc.

That is not to say that he shouldn't be accorded your protection should the crowd/players/coaches get on his back.

Oh yes he is!

You need to read Law 6 -- the TJ is clearly an official. Of course he is not the same as an AR, and has very resticted set of powers, but he clearly is an official

DEFINITIONS
Every match is under the control of Match Officials who consist of the referee and two touch judges or assistant referees. Additional persons, as authorised by the match organisers may include the reserve referee and/or reserve assistant referee, an official to assist the referee in making decisions by using technological devices, the time keeper, the match doctor, the team doctors, the non-playing members of the teams and the ball persons.
A touch judge may be appointed by a match organiser or a team involved in a match and is responsible for signalling, touch, touch in-goal and the success or otherwise of kicks at goal.
An assistant referee may be appointed by a match organiser and is responsible for signalling, touch, touch in-goal, the success or otherwise of kicks at goal and indicating foul play. An assistant referee will also provide assistance to the referee in the performance of any of the referee’s duties as directed by the referee.

SimonSmith
12-12-15, 12:12
USA Rugby are quite clear that club TJs are Match Officials, and that abuse against them is the same as referee abuse.

They have, at least, got that one right.

OB..
12-12-15, 18:12
I'm saying I understand why players stop when the TJ raises his flag.I can understand why they sometimes make that MISTAKE. Why should they benefit from it?


Quite frankly I think nearly any moron should be able to raise a flag when someone steps out. Obviously there are some cases in union where this does become a little confusing due to the strange touch laws.The problem only arises if it is a tricky decision where the TJ should not have signalled.

OB..
12-12-15, 18:12
Oh yes he is!

DEFINITIONS
Every match is under the control of Match Officials who consist of the referee and two touch judges or assistant referees
Technically I concede, and that is certainly the case for protecting him from abuse. However in practice he is usually totally unqualified in low-level games.

Dickie E
12-12-15, 19:12
At my grass roots level I rarely have a touch judge with much of a clue. I do however make a point of seeing them before hand and if they look particularly young and/or clueless saying "As high as you can with the flag please and I will always go with you, your call".

Always???

Taffy
12-12-15, 20:12
Always???

Yes, apart from last week when I stuffed it up!

Dickie E
12-12-15, 22:12
Well, there may be times (probably infrequently) where you legitimately overrule the TJ. I would avoid telling him/her that you will always go with their call.

What are you trying to convey by saying it? That you have confidence in their ability. How about "As high as you can with the flag please and I will go with your call unless I have a good reason to do otherwise".

Taffy
13-12-15, 17:12
Well, there may be times (probably infrequently) where you legitimately overrule the TJ. I would avoid telling him/her that you will always go with their call.

What are you trying to convey by saying it? That you have confidence in their ability. How about "As high as you can with the flag please and I will go with your call unless I have a good reason to do otherwise".

Probably covers more bases, but sounds a bit technical at my grass roots level.

:biggrin:

Dixie
14-12-15, 14:12
In the traditions of pantomime "Oh no he isn't" because he hasn't been properly appointed to the match by the organising authority.

Let's not forget that referees need not be appointed by the organising authority in the form of the RFU or a competition committee - if the ref doesn't turn up and they grab me off the touchline and find me some kit to ref in, I'm the ref for the day, appointed by the club. I see no reason why the TJ shouldn't be treated the same


They don't have the power of the Flag nor do they have the authority to be consulted on aspects of foul play etc. True enough - but neither did they have that in the years between 1892 and the recent introduction of AR's. That didn't mean that they weren't match officials. I suspect that examination of the discipline records in that period would throw up instances of abuse of an official where a player had harangued or assaulted a TJ.


That is not to say that he shouldn't be accorded your protection should the crowd/players/coaches get on his back. Agreed

crossref
14-12-15, 14:12
NB in this scenario we are talking about a TJ acting quite properly, and totally WITHIN his official power: to signal touch.
(but making an honest mistake)



Another complication of the 'play on' call is: what if the Touch Judge himself doesn't hear your call, and remains, quite correctly, standing on the line of touch with his flag raised high, waiting for you to notice him and to bring play back.

Some players may have heard your play-on, but at the same time no doubt some players and spectators will now be noisily calling your attention to him... and you'll be engaging in a tricky dialogue "no, I saw him, overruled, play on' -- are you certain you'll be able to keep the players all playing while the TJ continues to stand there, flag resolutely raised? for how long?


I just think that playing on when the flag is up could present quite a management challenge. Never say never ... but it's not an option that attracts me.

OB..
14-12-15, 17:12
NB in this scenario we are talking about a TJ acting quite properly, and totally WITHIN his official power: to signal touch.
(but making an honest mistake)Ball crosses the touchline, but is blown back in-field before touching anything. TJ raises his flag.

I think it is important to correct this, or he will keep on doing it. Call "Play on" as loudly as you can, expecting players to play the whistle not the flag. Take the next opportunity to apologise to the TJ for having to over-rule him and explain why.

If it does cause significant confusion, stop play, speak to the TJ as above but restart with a scrum under 20.4 (d). Speak to the captains as well.

OB..
14-12-15, 18:12
Let's not forget that referees need not be appointed by the organising authority in the form of the RFU or a competition committee - if the ref doesn't turn up and they grab me off the touchline and find me some kit to ref in, I'm the ref for the day, appointed by the club. I see no reason why the TJ shouldn't be treated the sameThe TJ gets his authority effectively by delegation from the referee, who can over-rule him if necessary. Generally speaking you will accept a TJ's judgement on where a kick went into touch etc, but I see no reason to accept law errors when you have a clear view..

crossref
14-12-15, 18:12
Ball crosses the touchline, but is blown back in-field before touching anything. TJ raises his flag.

I think it is important to correct this, or he will keep on doing it. Call "Play on" as loudly as you can, expecting players to play the whistle not the flag. Take the next opportunity to apologise to the TJ for having to over-rule him and explain why.

If it does cause significant confusion, stop play, speak to the TJ as above but restart with a scrum under 20.4 (d). Speak to the captains as well.

I don't really disagree with this, but I guess our difference is that my expectation is that this WILL almost always cause significant confusion, and the game will have to stop.


But luckily for everyone -- it's really very rare indeed for a TJ to raise his flag erroneously, with ref also in a positon to see that that has happened -- so this tricky situation hardly ever happens.

It's much more common for a TJ to miss touch (usually from inattention and/or from being miles away from play), but happily that situation is easily dealt with by blowing the whistle to stop play -- which also gives you a suitable moment to remonstrate with the TJ :-)