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View Full Version : Please clarify 8.3(b) for me.



Taff
16-12-15, 12:12
8.3 When the advantage law is not applied
(b) Ball out of tunnel. Advantage must not be applied when the ball comes out of either end of the tunnel at a scrum without having been played.
What if it HAS been played?

I have usually had the throw in again, but I'm now wondering whether I should be playing on if the ball has been played. :chin:

crossref
16-12-15, 12:12
It's an anomaly in the Laws, which don't mesh together.

Also need to read

20.7 When the scrum begins
(a)
Play in the scrum begins when the ball leaves the hands of the scrum half.
(b)
If the scrum half throws in the ball and it comes out at either end of the tunnel, the ball must be thrown in again unless a free kick or penalty has been awarded.
(c)
If the ball is not played by a front row player, and it goes straight through the tunnel and comes out behind the foot of a far prop without being touched, the scrum half must throw it in again.

20.10 Ending the scrum
(a) The ball comes out. When the ball comes out of the scrum in any direction except the tunnel, the scrum ends.

basically I think the phrase you have coloured red is an error, and should be removed.
If the ball comes out of the tunnel, we have a scrum again.

OB..
16-12-15, 13:12
I don't think there is a conflict. The scenario under 8.3 (b) is that the ball has gone straight through and is picked up by the opposition. Without that bit of law, people might be tempted to play on.

crossref
16-12-15, 13:12
I don't think there is a conflict. The scenario under 8.3 (b) is that the ball has gone straight through and is picked up by the opposition. Without that bit of law, people might be tempted to play on.

It implies that if the ball HAS been played -- ie it's been kicked straight back out of the tunnel -- then you can play advantage, and play on.

Do you think that's correct? I don't think it is. I think that 20.10 would say the scrum is not yet over 20.7 b would say you throw in again.

Taff
16-12-15, 14:12
... Basically I think the phrase you have coloured red is an error, and should be removed. If the ball comes out of the tunnel, we have a scrum again.
That's exactly how I've played it since I started Reffing.

If that is correct, then the bit it Red can be removed. The fact that it hasn't been removed has put a doubt in my mind.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
16-12-15, 14:12
That's exactly how I've played it since I started Reffing.

If that is correct, then the bit it Red can be removed. The fact that it hasn't been removed has put a doubt in my mind.

Moi aussi.

I tried reading the laws as above when I started and couldn't really get it straight in my head so I retreated to what "everyone" expects to happen when the ball emerges via the tunnel - a scrum.

Trying to justify any other decision based on the laws above just seems too hard work especially as I can't convince myself I know what it's on about.

Paule23
16-12-15, 14:12
It seems a bit arbitary though, if the ball is played and comes out behind the foot of a front row player (i.e. out of the side of the scrum but not the tunnel) we play on, if it is played, but after pointing about a bit comes out of the tunnel, we blow for another scrum?

I apply the literal interpretation, if it is played, then pops out the tunnel, play on (unless it is kicked deliberately out of the tunnel). As this thread develops I may of course have to change my thinking on this!

crossref
16-12-15, 16:12
I apply the literal interpretation, if it is played, then pops out the tunnel, play on (unless it is kicked deliberately out of the tunnel). As this thread develops I may of course have to change my thinking on this!

20.7 When the scrum begins
(b)
If the scrum half throws in the ball and it comes out at either end of the tunnel, the ball must be thrown in again unless a free kick or penalty has been awarded.

Nigib
16-12-15, 17:12
I'm with 20.7 (b), and simply reset if the ball comes out of the tunnel. Coming out either end of the tunnel, even if it bounces off someone, it's still using the momentum from the throw. This situation is different from coming out of the side of the scrum, even if it is just behind a prop; unless it's a squint throw (obviously a rare occurrence...) then a foot/body part will have redirected the ball backwards/offline in some way.

Pegleg
16-12-15, 18:12
Blue feed the scrum blue deliberately kick the ball out of the tunnel. Ref may play advantage to Red.

Blue feed the scrum blue the ball rolls directly out of the tunnel. NO advantage Scrum again.

Law make perfect sense.


20.7

(b)
If the scrum half throws in the ball and it comes out at either end of the tunnel, the ball must be thrown in again unless a free kick or penalty has been awarded.

Deliberately kicking the ball out is a Penalty. 8.3 (When the advantage law is not applied
(b) Ball out of tunnel. Advantage must not be applied when the ball comes out of either end of the tunnel at a scrum without having been played.) allows advantage to the none offending side in this case.

crossref
16-12-15, 19:12
Blue feed the scrum blue deliberately kick the ball out of the tunnel. Ref may play advantage to Red.

Law make perfect sense.

Advantage for what? No offence has been committed, and meanwhile law 20 says the scrum is not over and has to be reset....

(and do you really do it like that? In my experience whenever and however the ball comes out the tunnel, the referee Re sets)

Ian_Cook
16-12-15, 19:12
It implies that if the ball HAS been played -- ie it's been kicked straight back out of the tunnel -- then you can play advantage, and play on

That is an infringement

20.8 (c) Kicking-out. A front row player must not intentionally kick the ball out of the tunnel in the
direction from which it was thrown in.
Sanction: Free Kick

Pegleg
16-12-15, 19:12
Advantage for what? No offence has been committed, and meanwhile law 20 says the scrum is not over and has to be reset....

(and do you really do it like that? In my experience whenever and however the ball comes out the tunnel, the referee Re sets)

Deliberately kicking the ball out of the tunnel is an offence [20.8 (c)]. Law 8.3 tells you that you may play advantage in this situation. I have played advantage and the assessor was happy. It does not happen often. But it can and does happen occasionally.

Camquin
16-12-15, 19:12
Presumably 20.8(c) means you can kick it out on the other side (past your tight head) where the opposition scrum half cannot advance beyond the hindmost foot.

Though like most law loopholes I cannot actually see how you would use it - especially as most referees would either reset the scrum or award a penalty against you.

Camquin

crossref
16-12-15, 19:12
Of course it is, yes, sorry I was missing the deliberately

Perhaps that is what the advantage law is supposed to mean
.. Kick out of tunnel deliberately : is a FK and advantage can be claimed
.. Kick out the tunnel accidentally : not specified but I don't think anyone ever plays on here

Taff
16-12-15, 22:12
Perhaps that is what the advantage law is supposed to mean
.. Kick out of tunnel deliberately : is a FK and advantage can be claimed
.. Kick out the tunnel accidentally : not specified but I don't think anyone ever plays on here
Quite possibly, but from my limited experience I don't think I've seen a player kick the ball out deliberately.

What are they gaining by kicking it out?

Rushforth
16-12-15, 23:12
Quite possibly, but from my limited experience I don't think I've seen a player kick the ball out deliberately.

What are they gaining by kicking it out?

I played most of my games at hooker, and was under the mistaken belief that kicking the ball through the scrum was illegal. Perhaps I'd read the Sevens law at some point. That said, kicking the ball in the hope it either rebounds or scoots out the back before oppo SH can get control of it is something I would do, rarely in most parts of the field but on a 5m attacking scrum it was a useful option.

As a hooker, I considered myself good, but frankly it was only because the sides I played in had dominant front fives at scrum time (not necessarily in any other phase). In weaker packs, I would have been kicking the ball far more often, at least I imagine so, and I would have expected the ball to come out of the side more often. Perhaps not "deliberately", but recall I felt it was perhaps illegal to play "pinball" with opponents ball ;)

Long story short: players do what they feel gives them an advantage.

Dickie E
16-12-15, 23:12
I apply the literal interpretation, if it is played, then pops out the tunnel, play on (unless it is kicked deliberately out of the tunnel).

I would suggest that you are the only referee in the world who does this.

Pegleg
17-12-15, 09:12
Of course it is, yes, sorry I was missing the deliberately

Perhaps that is what the advantage law is supposed to mean
.. Kick out of tunnel deliberately : is a FK and advantage can be claimed
.. Kick out the tunnel accidentally : not specified but I don't think anyone ever plays on here


Quite there is NO offence it the kicking out is accidental so no possible advantage. Advantage in this sense only occurs AFTER an offence.

Pegleg
17-12-15, 09:12
Quite possibly, but from my limited experience I don't think I've seen a player kick the ball out deliberately.

What are they gaining by kicking it out?

You could do it if you felt you were "set wrong" as so going backwards. Kick it out get a reset and try again. A bit like takeing the scrum down on the engage because you not in your optimum position - especially when some referees allowed "the hit".

Why would a player deliberately collapse a scrum, when you consider the potential injury implications for him? As Rushforth says "players do what they feel gives them an advantage."

crossref
17-12-15, 09:12
Quite there is NO offence it the kicking out is accidental so no possible advantage. Advantage in this sense only occurs AFTER an offence.

but realistically -- when is the last time anyone ever judged that someone was deliberately kicking the ball out of the tunnel and gave a FK? It's just not something that ever happens. Ball comes out of the tunnel = reset 100% of the time, IME.

crossref
17-12-15, 09:12
(this is a good thread, I must have read Law 8 100 times without really noticing this anomaly)

Dickie E
17-12-15, 10:12
(this is a good thread, I must have read Law 8 100 times without really noticing this anomaly)

Your post #21 seems to sum it all up

FlipFlop
17-12-15, 11:12
For me - if the non-throwing in side is attempting to hook the ball (hooker or prop), then there is a chance of kicking it out. If it happens once, accident, and reset. Twice I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, but warn them, and reset. Third time is deliberately kicking out. Happens sometimes.

Paule23
17-12-15, 19:12
I would suggest that you are the only referee in the world who does this.

I did say I may need to think again about this! I have played on where the ball pinged about inside the scum then came out of the tunnel. My thinking was I didn't really think there is a differences after it has been played (in this instance, hooked back, got kicked forward, then popped out the tunnel) than the same scenario but it pops out just behind a front row foot.

Given all the comments on here looks like I won't be applying the Paule23 law variation again.

Pegleg
17-12-15, 19:12
For me - if the non-throwing in side is attempting to hook the ball (hooker or prop), then there is a chance of kicking it out. If it happens once, accident, and reset. Twice I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, but warn them, and reset. Third time is deliberately kicking out. Happens sometimes.


Well said. There is no anomaly at all. Indeed it may not occur often but it does happen. The law is pretty clear. Kick it out deliberately and there is an offence. The ref MAY play advantage. If the ball goes straight through or the kick out is deemed accidental, reset. Really not sure why people don't get it.

crossref
17-12-15, 21:12
Well said. There is no anomaly at all. Indeed it may not occur often but it does happen. The law is pretty clear. Kick it out deliberately and there is an offence. The ref MAY play advantage. If the ball goes straight through or the kick out is deemed accidental, reset. Really not sure why people don't get it.

because - in practice - how often do you ever judge that a player has deliberately kicked the ball out of the tunnel ? (and why?). It's a green unicorn

OB..
17-12-15, 21:12
because - in practice - how often do you ever judge that a player has deliberately kicked the ball out of the tunnel ? (and why?). It's a green unicornIf it stops being an offence and only causes a reset, then people will do it.

Pegleg
17-12-15, 21:12
because - in practice - how often do you ever judge that a player has deliberately kicked the ball out of the tunnel ? (and why?). It's a green unicorn

It has happened. Therfore, it is not a unicorn of any colour. Also as OB point out if it's not Illegal it will be done regularly. There are many offences that are relatively rare. Should be remove all from the law book?

If it does not happen in your games. GREAT you've nothing to worry about. However, if it does, and you disallow an advantage and the side don't get the winning try. Oh dear.

didds
18-12-15, 12:12
but realistically -- when is the last time anyone ever judged that someone was deliberately kicking the ball out of the tunnel and gave a FK? It's just not something that ever happens. Ball comes out of the tunnel = reset 100% of the time, IME.

possibly one reason its doesn't happen is because it penalisable, with frankly very little to gain from doing it ... except... running the clock down.

hmmm...

didds

Pegleg
18-12-15, 20:12
And it is rarely pinged because, as this thread has shown, referees do not know some of the laws!

buff
21-12-15, 02:12
Munster at Leicester today. Leicester scrum at around 46 minutes. Youngs feeds, the ball is clearly played the other Youngs, and pops out in front of the Leicester LHP. Whistle and reset.

Dickie E
21-12-15, 03:12
Munster at Leicester today. Leicester scrum at around 46 minutes. Youngs feeds, the ball is clearly played the other Youngs, and pops out in front of the Leicester LHP. Whistle and reset.

'clearly played' is not the same as 'deliberately kicking it out'

Dickie E
21-12-15, 04:12
Well said. There is no anomaly at all. Indeed it may not occur often but it does happen. The law is pretty clear. Kick it out deliberately and there is an offence. The ref MAY play advantage. If the ball goes straight through or the kick out is deemed accidental, reset. Really not sure why people don't get it.

8.3 When the advantage law is not applied
(b) Ball out of tunnel. Advantage must not be applied when the ball comes out of either end of the tunnel at a scrum without having been played.

People don't get it because your assertion (in red) is inconsistent with Law 8.3. Law 8.3 appears to suggest that if the ball is played, then accidentally comes out of the tunnel, then advantage may apply.

buff
21-12-15, 17:12
'clearly played' is not the same as 'deliberately kicking it out'
I never said it was. My point is that the ref blew immediately for a reset even though it was played.

Pegleg
21-12-15, 20:12
8.3 When the advantage law is not applied
(b) Ball out of tunnel. Advantage must not be applied when the ball comes out of either end of the tunnel at a scrum without having been played.

People don't get it because your assertion (in red) is inconsistent with Law 8.3. Law 8.3 appears to suggest that if the ball is played, then accidentally comes out of the tunnel, then advantage may apply.

What offence has been committed if the ball is accidentally kicked out of the tunnel? NONE. So we just reset. Advantage can only be played IF an offence has been committed. There is no inconsistency.