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Ian_Cook
25-12-15, 20:12
Proposals

a) Clarify the existing Law definition at the font of the Law book so that a player who is attempting to bring the ball under control is deemed to be in possession of the ball. This is existing practice and means that a player does not have to be in contact with the ball at the moment the player touches the touchline for the ball to be in touch. This clarification makes it easier for the match officials to judge whether or not the ball is in touch if the player is “juggling” with it in an attempt to bring it under control.
b) Permit a player to jump from the playing area and return a ball to play that has reached the plane of touch provided the player does so before he or she lands in touch.
c) Permit a ball carrier whose momentum takes him or her over the touchline, to return the ball to play provided that neither the player nor the ball lands in touch before the ball is released.
d) Change the Law so that a player who is in touch who catches or picks up a ball that has not reached the plane of touch is deemed to have taken the ball into touch.
e) There is no proposal to change the existing Law that permits a player, who is in touch, from playing a ball that has not reached the plane of touch providing that the player does not take possession of the ball whilst the player is in touch.
f) The RFU believes that the above changes can be effected simply by changing the definitions (see following sheet for suggested amendments to the definitions)

Law 19 Definition 6

Current
The ball is in touch if a player catches the ball and that player has a foot on the touchline or the ground beyond the touchline. If a player has one foot in the field of play and one foot in touch and holds the ball, the ball is in touch.

Proposed
The ball is in touch if a player catches the ball and that player has a foot on the touchline or the ground beyond the touchline. If the ball had not reached the touchline when the player catches it, the player has taken the ball into touch.

Rationale
Change encourages the catcher to keep the ball in play.

Justifications
i. Simplify the Law relating to touch for officials, players, coaches and spectators. Who has taken the ball into touch is determined by who last had possession or played the ball before the ball went into touch.
ii. Effectively increase the size of the playing area. A ball can be returned to the playing area by a player jumping from the playing area provided that neither the ball nor the player has touched the ground on or beyond the touchline.
iii. Increases the ball in play time: Makes it disadvantageous for a player in touch to pick up or catch a ball that has not reached the plane of touch and thus encourages them to play the ball.
iv. Make the game easier to officiate. The match officials only have to determine whether the ball had reached the plane of touch and who was the last player to play the ball before it did so.
v. Maintain or increase the number of tries scored. By keeping the ball in play longer more tries are likely to be scored.
vi. Aid consistency at all levels of the game and in all parts of the World There is currently inconsistency and lack of understanding around the current touch law.

chbg
26-12-15, 01:12
Mostly good. However the singleton referee's generic assumption will be that the player in touch catching the ball should / will not have tried to catch it before it crossed the plane of touch; he, the ref, will, more often than not from 5+m in-field, not be in a position to assess accurately whether the ball had reached the plane of touch or not.

ChrisR
26-12-15, 11:12
b) Permit a player to jump from the playing area and return a ball to play that has reached the plane of touch provided the player does so before he or she lands in touch.

c) Permit a ball carrier whose momentum takes him or her over the touchline, to return the ball to play provided that neither the player nor the ball lands in touch before the ball is released.

Yes! I've advocated this for ever!

e) There is no proposal to change the existing Law that permits a player, who is in touch, from playing a ball that has not reached the plane of touch providing that the player does not take possession of the ball whilst the player is in touch.

That is one they should have dumped.

The ball is in touch if a player catches the ball and that player has a foot on the touchline or the ground beyond the touchline. If the ball had not reached the touchline when the player catches it, the player has taken the ball into touch.

I'm with chbg. Assessing ball relative to touch is guessing for the referee unless he's on touch himself.

Pinky
30-12-15, 15:12
Not convinced by any of these, and the Aussies will need to redo line ball you call.

DarrenJones
10-01-16, 09:01
So it's moving closer to basketball from how I read it? Ball inside touch or above field of play touched by player outside is out. Player can jump out of the field to knock it back in as long as they take off before the line. But if a player who is outside the field or has touched the touch line plays it after it crosses the plane of the line of touch the ball will be considered already out. If that's the case I would have rathered full switch to basketball on this one and only the last to touch it before hitting the ground or where the players last position before playing it determine in or out eg if you catch the other teams kick while standing 5m off the pitch it's their ball.

Dixie
11-01-16, 14:01
[why not] only the last to touch it before hitting the ground or where the players last position before playing it determine in or out eg if you catch the other teams kick while standing 5m off the pitch it's their ball. I agree this is the missing piece, but I don't think that simple problem is the one that catches people out. So the ball is kicked out by Blue, and Red jumps from infield to try to bat it back into play. Red makes contact with the ball before it hits the ground, but in attempting to direct it back into play he only manages to make it land on the touchline. Who throws into the ensuing lineout?

FlipFlop
11-01-16, 15:01
I never understood why it is all so complicated. For me the solution to all the complication is:
1) Do away with the "plane of touch".
2) Stick to:
a) the ball is in touch when it touches something that is in touch, or held by a player in touch.
b) a player is in touch when they are touching the ground on or over the touch line.
c) a player who is in touch, remains in touch until they have placed themselves back in the field of play ("re-established themselves in the field of play" in NFL parlance), by touching the ground in the field of play, while no longer touching ground that is "in touch".


So a jumping player is in the state they were when they left the ground, and do not change state until they land.

And as for the kicking and the catcher taking it out, this is bogus to me. The kicker takes the risk when they choose to kick so close to the touch line. This is one of the ways they fail to execute properly.

crossref
11-01-16, 15:01
i agree.

Law 19 - current and proposed amended - is only usable when you have ARs who will be (1) on the touchline and (2) well informed.

For a solo ref both the current and proposed Law 19 are too complicated and impossible to use because (1) it's very rare that, as a ref, you are standing on the touchline and (2) although you have TJs who should, hopefully, be positioned there, the TJs cannot be relied upon to be well informed.

Dixie
11-01-16, 15:01
I never understood why it is all so complicated. For me the solution to all the complication is:
1) Do away with the "plane of touch".
2) Stick to:
the ball is in touch when it touches someone or something that is in touch. And is the flying defender in touch when he launched himself from the playing field at the ball and bats it back into play before touching the ground? I'd say no - on the basis that he himself has not touched anything or anyone that is in touch. Consequent changes such as the inability to score while you yourself are in TIG - a Good Thing IMO

didds
11-01-16, 18:01
i suppose the ability tom score by applyimng downward pressure to a loose ball whilst TIG does at least remove another line call for the referee/TJ/AR

didds

Camquin
11-01-16, 23:01
I tend to:
A ball is live until it lands of touches something in touch.
A player is in touch if they touch the ground beyond the touch line.
A player who jumps from the field of play is not in touch until they land.
A player who jumps from touch is in touch until they land.
A try is scored if there is downward pressure before - or simultaneous with - the ball carrier goes into touch.
Unless there is a TMO, give benefit of the doubt to the try scorer unless C&O
A player in touch may score a try by contacting a ball on the ground in goal (by applying the simultaneous rule)


We award the throw as now at the point the ball carrier enters touch, or where the ball crosses the plane of touch.
So we cannot get rid of the plane of touch entirely.

I suppose we could.
We could award the throw at the point the ball lands, but that would be very advantageous to the kicking side - tough presumably they would have to ensure it did not land touch in goal and give a drop out / scrum back.
But that would be a very big change.

ChrisR
11-01-16, 23:01
Agree 100% with need to eliminate any plane of touch judgement (except locating line of touch).

To make matters worse the trial amendment to 19 ask the referee to judge if the ball has reached the plane of the dead ball line. Duh!

I like FlipFlops definitions.

Ian_Cook
12-01-16, 01:01
I tend to:
A ball is live until it lands of touches something in touch.
A player is in touch if they touch the ground beyond the touch line.
A player who jumps from the field of play is not in touch until they land.
A player who jumps from touch is in touch until they land.
A try is scored if there is downward pressure before - or simultaneous with - the ball carrier goes into touch.
Unless there is a TMO, give benefit of the doubt to the try scorer unless C&O
A player in touch may score a try by contacting a ball on the ground in goal (by applying the simultaneous rule)


The highlighted one directly contradicts the Law

22.3 BALL GROUNDED BY AN ATTACKING PLAYER
(b) When an attacking player who has possession of the ball grounds the ball in in-goal and
simultaneously contacts the touch-in-goal line or the dead-ball-line (or anywhere beyond), a
22m drop-out is awarded to the defending team.

If you award a try in under these circumstance, you have committed a Law Error

Also, please don't make the "commentator error" of talking about "downward pressure" in relation to the ball carrier, NO downward pressure is required for the ball carrier to touch the ball down. Downward pressure only applies to a loose ball in the in-goal being pressed down by a player NOT carrying the ball.

22.1 GROUNDING THE BALL
There are two ways a player can ground the ball:
(a) Player touches the ground with the ball. A player grounds the ball by holding the ball and
touching the ground with it, in in-goal. ‘Holding’ means holding in the hand or hands, or in
the arm or arms. No downward pressure is required.
(b) Player presses down on the ball. A player grounds the ball when it is on the ground in the
in-goal and the player presses down on it with a hand or hands, arm or arms, or the front of
the player’s body from waist to neck inclusive.

Camquin
12-01-16, 10:01
Sorry did not make it clear I was discussing what I would like the laws to be, not what they currently are. But you are right I should not have used downward pressure - though for a loose ball you do need to press.
Currently we have an inconsistency, if you are carrying the ball then simultaneous is no try. However, a player in touch can press down on a loose ball can score - even though in this case there is by definition simultaneous contact with touch and the ball.

Ian_Cook
12-01-16, 10:01
Sorry did not make it clear I was discussing what I would like the laws to be, not what they currently are. But you are right I should not have used downward pressure - though for a loose ball you do need to press.

OK fair enough


Currently we have an inconsistency, if you are carrying the ball then simultaneous is no try. However, a player in touch can press down on a loose ball can score - even though in this case there is by definition simultaneous contact with touch and the ball.

I don't think this is inconsistent with the rest of Law. A player who forces a loose ball is not in possession of the ball therefore he does not put the ball into touch even if he is. This is entirely consistent with a player with his feet in touch being allowed to bat or knock a ball that has not crossed the plane of touch, back into the field of play.

LAW 19 DEFINITIONS
"A player in touch may kick or knock the ball, but not hold it, provided it has not crossed the plane of the touchline."

If he bats it or knocks it, the ball is not in touch

If he holds it, the ball is in touch

ChrisR
12-01-16, 17:01
If he bats it or knocks it, the ball is not in touch

If a player who is TIG or over the dead ball line applies downward pressure to a ball in goal and on the ground then a try is scored.

However, AIUI if the ball is off the ground and he gathers it in the act of grounding then the ball is dead.

I think that the definition just creates a more confusing scenario and I'd rather do away with it.

OB..
12-01-16, 20:01
However, AIUI if the ball is off the ground and he gathers it in the act of grounding then the ball is dead.
He is either grounding the ball or picking it up, not both.

Ian_Cook
12-01-16, 22:01
He is either grounding the ball or picking it up, not both.


I agree. I even saw a situation (Super Rugby last season?) where the ball was toe-poked into in-goal close to the TiG. A player dived on it, with his feet clearly in touch, and the ball was off the ground (between bounces) when the player put his hand on the ball and pushed it down to ground it. Try awarded (and correctly so IMO)

ChrisR
12-01-16, 23:01
I agree with you in the sentiment. However, if the ball is off the ground then there cannot be a simultaneous event of grounding and ball in contact with a player in touch or TIG. Therefore the ball is dead before the ball comes in contact with the ground.

By the way, the law is strangely mute regards a player over the dead ball line grounding a ball not in his possession.