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crossref
04-01-16, 10:01
the WR press release at christmas (http://www.worldrugby.org/news/129899) announced three new trials to be performed in 2016 - on Laws 15 (tackle) 16 ('breakdown') and 17 (maul) (file:///C:/Users/saxbey/Downloads/LRG_Laws_15_-_17_Trials.pdf)

The Law 16 Trial is interesting, especially the first sentence (1)

(NB They refer to Law 16 as Breakdown, but in the Law book it is called Law 16 - Ruck),


Law 16 - Breakdown

1. A breakdown commences when at least one player from the attacking team is on their
feet and over the ball which is on the ground (Tackled player, tackler + 1). At this
point the offside line is created. (New definition)

2. Only players acting as a half-back can play the ball with their hands (lift the ball out
of the breakdown). They must be on their feet and on-side. They must subsequently
run, pass or kick. (New 16.2 – Joining a breakdown). A half-back is any one player
who is not part of the breakdown and behind the hindmost foot who is in a position to
play the ball emerging from the breakdown. The hindmost foot will be the offside line
for half-back players.

3. Offside line at a ruck is the back foot + 1 metre. If the back foot of the hindmost
player is on or behind the goal line, the offside line for the defending team is the goal
line. To be policed by AR’s (New 16.5 (a) – Offside at the breakdown)

4. All arriving players must come from an onside position (see 3 above) and can enter
their side of the breakdown mid-point (no gate). Players must remain on their feet.
(New 16.5 (c) )

5. No players at breakdown can have hands on the ground beyond the ball, hold onto or
lean on or have knees on players on the ground. Players off their feet sealing the ball
will be penalized. Arriving players encouraged drive over/ past the ball (Existing
16.4)

6. Players must not handle the ball in a breakdown once the breakdown is formed. Once
the breakdown contest is formed the player must release the ball. (New 16.4 – Other
breakdown offences)

7. The breakdown ends when the ball emerges or the ball is picked up (New 16.6 –
Successful end to a breakdown)

So


1. A breakdown commences when at least one player from the attacking team is on their
feet and over the ball which is on the ground (Tackled player, tackler + 1). At this
point the offside line is created. (New definition)

By 'attacking team' I think they must mean the team in possession (?)

So this means that at a tackle a support runner arriving at the tackle immediately creates an offside line, all on his own... that's very similar to the trial of an automatic offside-line at every tackle which they had to abandon really quickly.

It means that when a ball carrier breaks the defensive line and is tackled by the full back, his support runner arriving at the tackle creates an offside line that renders every single opponent offside... useful.

ChrisR
04-01-16, 12:01
I suspect that this is an attempt to head off the 'no ruck' development last year.

Dixie
04-01-16, 13:01
Is it intended to be the death-knell of traditional #7 play as perfected by Sir Richie?

1. A breakdown commences when at least one player from the attacking team is on their
feet and over the ball which is on the ground (Tackled player, tackler + 1). At this
point the offside line is created. (New definition)

6. Players must not handle the ball in a breakdown once the breakdown is formed. Once
the breakdown contest is formed the player must release the ball. (New 16.4 – Other
breakdown offences)

So White 12 tackles Black 12. First arrival is Black 7 (surprise surprise). By arriving, Black 7 has commenced ("formed") the breakdown. Consequently, Black 7 cannot touch ("handle") the ball at any time after his arrival. The defending 7, on the other hand, is free to do so if he can get there first.

The new ruck offside line is ambiguous - what is meant by "back foot + 1m"? Looked at from the player's perspective, the offside line is now half way up the ruck, as the offside line is not "back foot minus 1m". Notwithstanding the apparently incomplete text regarding the goal line, I suspect this is not what was intended - the intent is surely to place the offside line 1m back from the rear foot, not 1m forward of it. If so, we need a new offside line for the half back. One such is created at the hindmost foot for the breakdown, but as soon as that turns into a ruck by a defender grabbing an attacker, the half-back has to retire `1m - making it hard for him to distribute!

Equally, in the absence of any half-back offside line, no rucker can pick and drive. If he's unbound from the ruck he's offside, being less than 1m behind the back foot. If he's still bound he's handling in the ruck. So no forward pickup, and the half back is too far back to pick up - sounds like a great game!

ChrisR
04-01-16, 15:01
A half-back is any one player
who is not part of the breakdown and behind the hindmost foot who is in a position to
play the ball emerging from the breakdown. The hindmost foot will be the offside line
for half-back players.

Here's the part you skipped over from item 2.

The part about pick-'n-go's is interesting coz I think it will increase the ploy. The latcher will have to start 1m back but the picker has an extra meter of uncontested ground. Not sure if it's worth it but for teams that use it they'll get a bonus meter each go.

crossref
04-01-16, 15:01
The part about pick-'n-go's is interesting coz I think it will increase the ploy. The latcher will have to start 1m back but the picker has an extra meter of uncontested ground. Not sure if it's worth it but for teams that use it they'll get a bonus meter each go.

so the rearmost player in the ruck will detach and become the latcher, so we refs will have to watch for him being properly bound.

Dixie
04-01-16, 15:01
A half-back is any one player who is not part of the breakdown and behind the hindmost foot who is in a position to play the ball emerging from the breakdown. The hindmost foot will be the offside line for half-back players.

Here's the part you skipped over from item 2. Marauder, I didn't skip over it - I referenced it by saying:

One such is created at the hindmost foot for the breakdown, but as soon as that turns into a ruck by a defender grabbing an attacker, the half-back has to retire 1m - making it hard for him to distribute!

It seems to me that the Breakdown is a new phase which (if it exists at all) will typically be a short phase between Tackle and Ruck. So the tackle takes place - nothing new here. Attacker arrives - breakdown commences, establishing offside lines (for the half-back at the hindmost foot). As soon as the attacker is grabbed by an opponent, a ruck forms (existing law) with the offside line immediately moving 1m (direction uncertain). If it moves 1m behind the back foot, the half-back who was onside at the breakdown now becomes offside, because the Breakdown has finished and a Ruck has formed - and there does not seem to be a halfback-only offside line at the Ruck.

ChrisR
04-01-16, 16:01
Unfortunately this trial was not presented in the form of fully documented law amendments. Common sense suggests that the SH offside at breakdown will convey to the scrum.

Dixie
04-01-16, 16:01
Unfortunately this trial was not presented in the form of fully documented law amendments. Common sense suggests that the SH offside at breakdown will convey to the ruck. Agreed - but with a half-back already in place, the pick'n'drive is outlawed due to the 1m gap between the new ruck offside line and the ruck itself - unless there can be more than one halfback? Equally, how can anyone join the ruck without first being offside? This smacks of a trial provision that hasn't been subjected to any quality control at all - very poor for a World Governing Body. They seem to assume that if it's better than FIFA, it's all good!

Ian_Cook
04-01-16, 18:01
Is it intended to be the death-knell of traditional #7 play as perfected by Sir Richie?

1. A breakdown commences when at least one player from the attacking team is on their
feet and over the ball which is on the ground (Tackled player, tackler + 1). At this
point the offside line is created. (New definition)

6. Players must not handle the ball in a breakdown once the breakdown is formed. Once
the breakdown contest is formed the player must release the ball. (New 16.4 – Other
breakdown offences)

So White 12 tackles Black 12. First arrival is Black 7 (surprise surprise). By arriving, Black 7 has commenced ("formed") the breakdown. Consequently, Black 7 cannot touch ("handle") the ball at any time after his arrival. The defending 7, on the other hand, is free to do so if he can get there first.

No. All that it changes is that it no longer requires players from each team to form a ruck

When Black 7 arrives at the the tackle, be can still go for the ball, because Law 16.4 (b) has not changed. Black 7 will form the "breakdown" simultaneously with his arrival and attempt to jackle.

Nigib
04-01-16, 20:01
No. All that it changes is that it no longer requires players from each team to form a ruck

When Black 7 arrives at the the tackle, be can still go for the ball, because Law 16.4 (b) has not changed. Black 7 will form the "breakdown" simultaneously with his arrival and attempt to jackle.

Surely there would need to be a difference between 'commences' and 'formed' to enable jackling - I can't see that as the intent from the words as they are writ here. I'm inferring that the breakdown in new definition starts with one player over the ball, and a ruck would then form when an oppo player is in physical contact with them. No room for jackling afaics.

tim White
04-01-16, 21:01
How does this add anything to the existing laws? If the existing laws are applied we don't need any new ones, do we? :shrug:

crossref
04-01-16, 22:01
How does this add anything to the existing laws? If the existing laws are applied we don't need any new ones, do we? :shrug:

at the moment it takes a player from each team to form a ruck, and hence offside lines
the variation they will trial is that just one player arriving from the ball carrier's team is enough to form a 'breakdown' and offside lines.

NB I read it that rucks no longer exist, we would just have breakdowns. New name (presumably) to emphasise that this really is different

didds
04-01-16, 23:01
I would humbly suggest



5. No players at breakdown can have hands on the ground beyond the ball, hold onto or
lean on or have knees on players on the ground. Players off their feet sealing the ball
will be penalized. Arriving players encouraged drive over/ past the ball (Existing
16.4)


is all that is required. Now arriving players have to either pick, clear (includes standing over the ball in preparation for an almost arrived opponent) or get out of the way. Simples.

didds

didds

Pinky
05-01-16, 01:01
No. All that it changes is that it no longer requires players from each team to form a ruck

When Black 7 arrives at the the tackle, be can still go for the ball, because Law 16.4 (b) has not changed. Black 7 will form the "breakdown" simultaneously with his arrival and attempt to jackle.

Ian, the way I read this, the arriving 7 would only be allowed to play the ball with his hands if he was acting as the halfback. He creates the "breakdown" and at that point everyone but the half back has to let go of the ball.

Pinky
05-01-16, 01:01
Marauder, I didn't skip over it - I referenced it by saying:

One such is created at the hindmost foot for the breakdown, but as soon as that turns into a ruck by a defender grabbing an attacker, the half-back has to retire 1m - making it hard for him to distribute!

It seems to me that the Breakdown is a new phase which (if it exists at all) will typically be a short phase between Tackle and Ruck. So the tackle takes place - nothing new here. Attacker arrives - breakdown commences, establishing offside lines (for the half-back at the hindmost foot). As soon as the attacker is grabbed by an opponent, a ruck forms (existing law) with the offside line immediately moving 1m (direction uncertain). If it moves 1m behind the back foot, the half-back who was onside at the breakdown now becomes offside, because the Breakdown has finished and a Ruck has formed - and there does not seem to be a halfback-only offside line at the Ruck.

Dixie, I'm with Crossref on this - I think this largely replaces the ruck. As with current ruck and maul the breakdown will continue until there is a successful end (or some infringement).

Not sure how you are to decide players are off side if they are moving to join in the mele!

Ian_Cook
05-01-16, 03:01
Surely there would need to be a difference between 'commences' and 'formed' to enable jackling - I can't see that as the intent from the words as they are writ here. I'm inferring that the breakdown in new definition starts with one player over the ball, and a ruck would then form when an oppo player is in physical contact with them. No room for jackling afaics.


Ian, the way I read this, the arriving 7 would only be allowed to play the ball with his hands if he was acting as the halfback. He creates the "breakdown" and at that point everyone but the half back has to let go of the ball.


If what you are saying is true, then it logically follows that as soon as the player acting as halfback gets his hands on the ball, he forms a breakdown, and no-one can now touch him.

That does not seem right to me.

menace
05-01-16, 05:01
No. All that it changes is that it no longer requires players from each team to form a ruck

When Black 7 arrives at the the tackle, be can still go for the ball, because Law 16.4 (b) has not changed. Black 7 will form the "breakdown" simultaneously with his arrival and attempt to jackle.

But does Black 7 have to use the 'gate' at the tackle when trying to form a breakdown or can they enter at any angle? It seems to be silent on tackle entry but rather incorrectly refers to a gate as 'ruck gate' i.e. entering the breakdown.

Ian_Cook
05-01-16, 05:01
But does Black 7 have to use the 'gate' at the tackle when trying to form a breakdown or can they enter at any angle? It seems to be silent on tackle entry but rather incorrectly refers to a gate as 'ruck gate' i.e. entering the breakdown.


AIUI, for the trial, the tackle gate is dead.

4. All arriving players must come from an onside position (see 3 above) and can enter
their side of the breakdown mid-point (no gate).
All players, tackler or not, must come in from behind the midpoint of the breakdown, behind being defined as anywhere in the 180° arc between the ball and the player's own goal-line.

The picture I have in my head is that at most breakdowns the ball will not be at the midpoint, it will be closer to one team or the other. Whichever team has the ball in their half of the breakdown is going to have a huge advantage because they will be able to join ahead of the ball while their opponents will get nowhere near it. Yes, players have to approach from an onside position, but that doesn't mean they cannot drive past the offside line to join the breakdown, in fact, they will be encouraged to do so

5. No players at breakdown can have hands on the ground beyond the ball, hold onto or
lean on or have knees on players on the ground. Players off their feet sealing the ball
will be penalized. Arriving players encouraged drive over/ past the ball (Existing
16.4)
How can you drive over/past the ball without first driving past the offside line?

MO, this is going to be an absolute mess and make it even more difficult to referee. Even worse, it will make turnovers nearly impossible to get and we know what will happen when coaches see that

Aerial ping-pong anyone?

menace
05-01-16, 05:01
AIUI, for the trial, the tackle gate is dead.

4. All arriving players must come from an onside position (see 3 above) and can enter
their side of the breakdown mid-point (no gate).
All players, tackler or not, must come in from behind the midpoint of the breakdown, behind being defined as anywhere in the 180° arc between the ball and the player's own goal-line.

The picture I have in my head is that at most breakdowns the ball will not be at the midpoint, it will be closer to one team or the other. Whichever team has the ball in their half of the breakdown is going to have a huge advantage because they will be able to join ahead of the ball while their opponents will get nowhere near it. Yes, players have to approach from an onside position, but that doesn't mean they cannot drive past the offside line to join the breakdown, in fact, they will be encouraged to do so

5. No players at breakdown can have hands on the ground beyond the ball, hold onto or
lean on or have knees on players on the ground. Players off their feet sealing the ball
will be penalized. Arriving players encouraged drive over/ past the ball (Existing
16.4)
How can you drive over/past the ball without first driving past the offside line?

MO, this is going to be an absolute mess and make it even more difficult to referee. Even worse, it will make turnovers nearly impossible to get and we know what will happen when coaches see that

Aerial ping-pong anyone?

Thanks. You may be right but the 'breakdown' aiui replaces the ruck.....there is no gate at the ruck? The gate only applies to the tackle? I think they used the term as a convenient way of referring to side entry at a ruck which is now removed. I'm not sure it applies to the tackle? If it does then I can see the attacking team that is attempting to form a breakdown quickly will have have their head facing the wrong way? Opposition will be cleaning out butts not heads!:shrug::shrug::wtf: This is getting a whole lot of ugly very quickly.

Nigib
05-01-16, 08:01
If what you are saying is true, then it logically follows that as soon as the player acting as halfback gets his hands on the ball, he forms a breakdown, and no-one can now touch him.

That does not seem right to me.

The difference for me is that the breakdown is formed with one player standing over the ball; the player in halfback role is waiting for the ball to emerge. I'm not trying to defend any of this, I simply can't see enough information to judge just how barmy it is :-)

Rich_NL
05-01-16, 10:01
Which existing problem(s) is this meant to solve?

crossref
05-01-16, 10:01
don't forget everyone, this is only an additional closed trial -- not a global trial and certainly not a definitive new Law

Ian_Cook
05-01-16, 11:01
Which existing problem(s) is this meant to solve?

Well, I agree with Marauder's comment earlier in the thread. I think this is an attempt to deal with the practice we saw last season of defenders intentionally not forming a ruck so that the lack of an offside line allows them to defend in the faces of the opposition.

crossref
05-01-16, 12:01
Well, I agree with Marauder's comment earlier in the thread. I think this is an attempt to deal with the practice we saw last season of defenders intentionally not forming a ruck so that the lack of an offside line allows them to defend in the faces of the opposition.

i agree,
but the impact will surely be that once the defensive line is borken, the attacking team will create an offside line at every tackle, and render all the opponents immediately offside lazy runners .. unable to intervene as the ball is then played

Dixie
05-01-16, 13:01
Thanks. You may be right but the 'breakdown' aiui replaces the ruck.....

How can the breakdown replace a ruck when, under the law governing a Breakdown, we see this:

3. Offside line at a ruck is the back foot + 1 metre. If the back foot of the hindmost
player is on or behind the goal line, the offside line for the defending team is the goal
line. To be policed by AR’s (New 16.5 (a) – Offside

There is a conflict here with the 7th paragraph:

7. The breakdown ends when the ball emerges or the ball is picked up (New 16.6 – Successful end to a breakdown)

It is a reasonable assumption that the 12 year-old youth trainee delegated to draft this incorrectly allowed the word "Ruck" to slip into the definition of a new Law 16 covering only Breakdown, and that rucks will no longer exist. Of course, as there is now no concept of an "unsuccessful end to what previously would have been called a ruck", if a ball does not emerge and can't be picked up by the halfback, we are in the realms of a restart after any other stoppage - Law 20.4(d):

d) Scrum after any other stoppage. After any other stoppage or irregularity not covered by Law, the team that was moving forward before the stoppage throws in the ball. If neither team was moving forward, the attacking team throws in the ball.

I think I can live with that, but it seems to benefit only the "attacking team". We also have to consider what happens when the defending team gets there first - which will surely be the norm. Presumably, if they all huddle over the ball in a strong stance, we are still in the tackle phase - and the defenders must therefore respect the gate, while attackers need not (or does the first attacker have to enter via the gate, as only by arriving in the tackle zone can he form a Breakdown?).

Another ill-considered point (assuming that the offside line is not half-way up the Breakdown) is what happens if the hindmost foot of the breakdown is within 1m of the goal line. I'm going to guess they don't want to force the defence to line up behind the goal line rather than along it, but as written they only get to come forward to the goal line when the back foot actually touches or crosses it. Very poor - why can't the law makers think of this stuff before promulgating it?


I suspect that this is an attempt to head off the 'no ruck' development last year. Maybe - but perhaps it's also a realisation that the ruck is simply too complicated as currently constituted

crossref
05-01-16, 13:01
The press release makes it pretty clear that these are after-thought last minute trials. I think the poor drafting reflects that.
I expect that by the time these trials are actually held, the wording will have been tightened up..

ChrisR
05-01-16, 13:01
I expect that by the time these trials are actually held, the wording will have been tightened up..

Before the trial starts the changes need to be expressed as law modifications otherwise there will be total chaos. I can only hope that exercise will generate a period of thought that will shake out some of the questions.

Not holding my breath.

Dixie
05-01-16, 13:01
The press release makes it pretty clear that these are after-thought last minute trials. I think the poor drafting reflects that.
I expect that by the time these trials are actually held, the wording will have been tightened up.. Crossref, I don't disagree that the wording will be tightened up, but I can't see where you get the idea that this was a last-minute afterthought. I took this message from the press release, indicating that the WR considers this to be a highly considered package that has received thorough review and analysis:

2016 will also see a programme of closed law trials begin in earnest as World Rugby’s quadrennial law review process continues in 2016.

Every four years, rugby’s governing body undertakes a complete health-check of the game’s playing trends across the Rugby World Cup cycle to ensure that the sport continues to develop at all levels around the world. This extensive process is undertaken with full union consultation and has player welfare, game simplification and fan experience at its core.

The implementation of the package of law trials and law amendments by World Rugby Council, follows detailed analysis and evaluation of union submissions by the specialist Law Review Group (LRG) which reports to the Rugby Committee. This evaluation process also featured specialist input from the Scrum Steering Group (SSG) and the Multi-Disciplinary Injury Prevention Group (MDIPG) over the past year and is the next phase of the law change process.

crossref
05-01-16, 14:01
Crossref, I don't disagree that the wording will be tightened up, but I can't see where you get the idea that this was a last-minute afterthought. I took this message from the press release, indicating that the WR considers this to be a highly considered package that has received thorough review and analysis:

because the press release says


2016 closed trials recap

With the closed law trials kicking-off in Wales and Australia in August with the Principality Cup and National Rugby Championship respectively, 2016 will see other tournaments follow, including a number of World Rugby competitions, namely the Pacific Challenge Cup (March), U20 Trophy (April), Nations Cup (June) and Tbilisi Cup (June), providing valuable data from players, coaches and match officials for the LRG to consider.

VIEW THE FULL LIST OF LAW TRIALS HERE >>

But the "full list" of law trials does NOT include the trials to Laws 15,16,17 !

The reason for that can be found later in the Press Release


At the original LRG meeting the members agreed that Laws 15-17 (Tackle, Ruck and Maul) needed further consideration. All Unions were asked to further consider any potential trials with their Unions. As a result the LRG met again and agreed to trial the following elements of the game, the full list of which can be found HERE.

IE the trials to 15, 16, 17 are - while perhaps not an afterthought - certainly second thoughts. And they are documented in a different way, without using the useful table format the the others are in. They look more rushed to me.

The most odd thing of all is the way it refers to "Law 16 - Breakdown" with no word of explanation.

menace
06-01-16, 00:01
How can the breakdown replace a ruck when, under the law governing a Breakdown, we see this:

3. Offside line at a ruck is the back foot + 1 metre. If the back foot of the hindmost
player is on or behind the goal line, the offside line for the defending team is the goal
line. To be policed by AR’s (New 16.5 (a) – Offside

There is a conflict here with the 7th paragraph:

7. The breakdown ends when the ball emerges or the ball is picked up (New 16.6 – Successful end to a breakdown)

It is a reasonable assumption that the 12 year-old youth trainee delegated to draft this incorrectly allowed the word "Ruck" to slip into the definition of a new Law 16 covering only Breakdown, and that rucks will no longer exist. Of course, as there is now no concept of an "unsuccessful end to what previously would have been called a ruck", if a ball does not emerge and can't be picked up by the halfback, we are in the realms of a restart after any other stoppage - Law 20.4(d):

d) Scrum after any other stoppage. After any other stoppage or irregularity not covered by Law, the team that was moving forward before the stoppage throws in the ball. If neither team was moving forward, the attacking team throws in the ball.

I think I can live with that, but it seems to benefit only the "attacking team". We also have to consider what happens when the defending team gets there first - which will surely be the norm. Presumably, if they all huddle over the ball in a strong stance, we are still in the tackle phase - and the defenders must therefore respect the gate, while attackers need not (or does the first attacker have to enter via the gate, as only by arriving in the tackle zone can he form a Breakdown?).

Another ill-considered point (assuming that the offside line is not half-way up the Breakdown) is what happens if the hindmost foot of the breakdown is within 1m of the goal line. I'm going to guess they don't want to force the defence to line up behind the goal line rather than along it, but as written they only get to come forward to the goal line when the back foot actually touches or crosses it. Very poor - why can't the law makers think of this stuff before promulgating it?

Maybe - but perhaps it's also a realisation that the ruck is simply too complicated as currently constituted

I assume you're questioning WR wording and not my assumption that the ruck is now replaced with the 'breakdown'?? But for the record I made that assertion from

1. A breakdown commences when at least one player from the attacking team is on their
feet and over the ball which is on the ground (Tackled player, tackler + 1). At this
point the offside line is created. (New definition)
Not to mention its law 16....which is currently the ruck law.
Perhaps my assertion was wrong?

Ps. I think I'm going to give up trying to understand the new trial laws until they've been trialled and come into effect....the lack of clarity is doing my head in!

crossref
06-01-16, 09:01
Ps. I think I'm going to give up trying to understand the new trial laws until they've been trialled and come into effect....the lack of clarity is doing my head in!

we should probably have two different sections on this site

1- Law questions -- about understanding intepreting and applying the current Laws
2- Law speculation -- about Law trials and ideas for new Laws

Dixie
06-01-16, 12:01
we should probably have two different sections on this site

1- Law questions -- about understanding intepreting and applying the current Laws
2- Law speculation -- about Law trials and ideas for new Laws I'm not sure that's required - this thread is in a section entitled Law Changes. If we were discussing current law (even if recently changed), I'd expect the discussion to be located in the relevant section.

crossref
07-01-16, 19:01
SAReferees.com are under the impression that this new Law 16 is currently being trialled in the english premiership.

I don't think that is correct ... but who knows?

here's the article
http://www.sareferees.com/News/law-discussion-hands-down/2830577/

Ian_Cook
07-01-16, 20:01
SAReferees.com are under the impression that this new Law 16 is currently being trialled in the english premiership.

I don't think that is correct ... but who knows?

here's the article
http://www.sareferees.com/News/law-discussion-hands-down/2830577/

Crossref, I don't quite read it like that. I think they know its not being trialled, its just that the pre RWC2015 instruction looks very similar to this "breakdown" law in the aspect of hands on the ground.

Players jackling for the ball have, for some time now, been penalised if they put their hands in the ground beyond the ball and then tried to sweep up the ball all in one motion. This action has been ruled as going off your feet, on the basis stated in Law 15.6 (a).."Players are on their feet if no other part of their body is supported by the ground or players on the ground".

However, for the last couple of years, we have seen players (usually team-mates of the tackled player) arrive at the tackle, stepping astride the ball to protect it, and leaning forward with their hand or hands on the ground, enabling them to brace lower and be more difficult to clean out. The tackle Law is not clear in this regard.

15.6 (a) After a tackle, all other players must be on their feet when they play the ball. Players are on their feet if no other part of their body is supported by the ground or players on the ground.
.....this Law is silent on players at the tackle who are not attempting to play the ball, and so far we have not penalised these players, however...

15.6 (d) At a tackle or near to a tackle, other players who play the ball must do so from behind the ball and from directly behind the tackled player or the tackler closest to those players’ goal
line.
.....this Law is silent on players entering the tackle who are not attempting to play the ball, but nonetheless, we PK them for side entry/not entering through the gate.

I see no reason not to extend the requirement for players at the tackle to stay on their feet and apply "players are on their feet if no other part of their body is supported by the ground or players on the ground" as the gold standard for that judgement.

As for the offside calls in the Sarries v Tigers match, I haven't seen any of the game, so I can't judge whether they were rucks when the offside calls were made, but I would say that since, under current laws, the tackle is not a "phase" play, then it is General Play, and the ball is the offside line. Its a bit of a stretch, but stepping past the ball and putting hands on the ground in front of it could be construed as offside.

crossref
07-01-16, 21:01
the article says


But now there are experiments that pertain to how rugby is played in England's Premiership. One of those is the introduction of the breakdown - a new idea and defined.

so far as I am aware there are no trials or experiments in the premiership, which is being played the Laws in the book.

having said that, no doubt the referees have been given guidelines and interpretations to ref to.

didds
08-01-16, 13:01
the article says


the premiership, which is being played the Laws in the book..

Really? that'll be a first!

Does that include straight put ins?

didds