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Phil E
13-01-16, 17:01
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-derbyshire-35296296

What should it be?


MPs have given initial support to the idea of England adopting an official national anthem.

God Save the Queen, the national anthem for the UK as a whole, is currently used for England during most sporting events.

However, Chesterfield MP Toby Perkins believes England needs its own anthem and presented his case in the House of Commons as a ten minute rule motion.

His English National Anthem Bill was adopted by the House.

The idea will be debated again at a second reading on 4 March.

The bill would bestow a responsibility on the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport to hold a consultation across the UK, and Mr Perkins suggested there could even be an "X Factor style programme" to select a song.

crossref
13-01-16, 18:01
not sure why parliament feel the need to get involved? the RFU can play whatever song they like. It didn't need parliament for SRFU to start playing flower of scotland.

England athletics team at the commonwealth games have previously used Jerusalem and LOHAG.

But which song for rugby ? Jerusalem is defeatist, and too christian. LOHAG is about empire building.. oops.

what about

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GvkyKEYRnM

4eyesbetter
13-01-16, 18:01
Jerusalem is defeatist


What's the entire second verse? Scotch mist? It's literally about getting weapons to go and fight for some ill-defined cause. Nothing can beat "let the impure blood of our enemies water our fields", but that's pretty close.


and too christian.

Nonsense. It's the most potentially agnostic hymn ever written. All skeptics need do is insert a question mark at the end of each line of the first verse, and it turns into "Did all this stuff happen? We're not really sure..."

Besides, as Howard Goodall explains, the music is psychologically perfect for the English national character: https://youtu.be/OCvuvw8hiSk?t=7m42s

crossref
13-01-16, 19:01
And did those feet in ancient time
Walk upon England's mountains green?
And was the holy Lamb of God
On England's pleasant pastures seen?
And did the Countenance Divine
Shine forth upon our clouded hills?
And was Jerusalem builded here
Among these dark Satanic Mills?

Bring me my bow of burning gold!
Bring me my arrows of desire!
Bring me my spear! O clouds, unfold!
Bring me my chariot of fire!
I will not cease from mental fight,
Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand,
Till we have built Jerusalem
In England's green and pleasant land

There is a question mark on each line.

To me, it's a paen, mourning for an imaginary England that we don't have, for a missed opportunity, and saying we need to work for a better England.

I don't see it as celebratory at all.

Dickie E
13-01-16, 21:01
To me, it's a paen, mourning for an imaginary England that we don't have, for a missed opportunity, and saying we need to work for a better England.

I don't see it as celebratory at all.

Makes it perfect, then. :)

PS: how's Eddie shaping up?

Pegleg
13-01-16, 23:01
As a Welshman I completely support the establishment of an English anthem. Jerusalem, with its dig at the Satanic mills that Blake saw Oxbridge to be, is perfect. It certainly is far better than the UK dirge of an anthem that you currently hijack.

Rushforth
13-01-16, 23:01
As a Welshman I completely support the establishment of an English anthem. Jerusalem, with its dig at the Satanic mills that Blake saw Oxbridge to be, is perfect. It certainly is far better than the UK dirge of an anthem that you currently hijack.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_did_those_feet_in_ancient_time#.22Dark_Satanic _Mills.22

No idea where you are pulling Oxbridge from out of your bottom.

Dim diolch.

Camquin
14-01-16, 00:01
Surely the only option is "A Song of Patriotic Predjudice' from Flanders and Swan's second revue "At the Drop of Another Hat'

SimonSmith
14-01-16, 01:01
This has to be the winner. This, or the Kinks version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRK6U5vIHCs

Pegleg
14-01-16, 08:01
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_did_those_feet_in_ancient_time#.22Dark_Satanic _Mills.22

No idea where you are pulling Oxbridge from out of your bottom.

Dim diolch.

Well I don't use wki as a reference source. Which helps. Blake was attacking the establishment centres of Oxbridge, the established church etc which he saw as corrupt.

crossref
14-01-16, 10:01
Blake was attacking the establishment centres of Oxbridge, the established church etc which he saw as corrupt.

...which is not the sort of sentiment you want to have in a national anthem !

didds
14-01-16, 10:01
The okey-cokey.

The worst thing that could happen is there is a competiton for a totally new anthem. then we'll either end up with some jingoistic dirge, or something that sounds as if its been recorded by (random choice) Atomic Kitten.

didds

Phil E
14-01-16, 11:01
Well I don't use wki as a reference source. Which helps. Blake was attacking the establishment centres of Oxbridge, the established church etc which he saw as corrupt.

So what is your reference source?
The BBC also go with the industrial revolution angle.


So why did Blake spin a poem about a medieval myth? Probably because England at the time was a place of change and he wasn't entirely happy about the direction it was taking. It was the time of the Industrial Revolution, when factories - the dark Satanic Mills he wrote of - seemed to swallow people up and spit them out broken and mangled. As a nonconformist Christian, Blake looked back on a time when a religious figure could walk in barefoot simplicity on "England's green and pleasant land".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35304508

Rushforth
14-01-16, 11:01
Well I don't use wki as a reference source. Which helps. Blake was attacking the establishment centres of Oxbridge, the established church etc which he saw as corrupt.

The best I could find is http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/bring-no-spears-to-jerusalem-1347934.html

"People have been reading elaborately foolish things into its modest 16 lines for years."

"The old problem of what Blake meant by "those dark, Satanic mills" has never been resolved. Did he mean real, industrial-revolution mills? Or the universities of Oxford and Cambridge? Or did he mean Protestant churches?"

The only other references I can quickly find are also of people who "think" the line is about Oxbridge, like you.

I've seen Cambridge, it looks nothing like this: https://goo.gl/maps/nEpDBo9iCi82

crossref
14-01-16, 11:01
The okey-cokey.

The worst thing that could happen is there is a competiton for a totally new anthem. then we'll either end up with some jingoistic dirge, or something that sounds as if its been recorded by (random choice) Atomic Kitten.

didds

I think a competition to create a new 'official' anthem would be a poor idea, like you I don't trust the result, it's hard to write a song that stirs the soul to order.

Rather wait for serendipity, eventually something will come along that captures the imagination -- like Flower of Scotland did, a folk tune written in 1967 that many years later was unofficially adopted ...


The song has been used as a National Anthem by the Scotland national rugby union team, ever since the winger, Billy Steele, encouraged his team-mates to sing it on the victorious Lions tour of South Africa in 1974.[4] The song was adopted as the pre-game anthem during the deciding match of the 1990 Five Nations Championship between Scotland and England, which Scotland won 13–7 to win the Grand Slam.[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flower_of_Scotland

It must have been very much the same time that England crowds started to sing Swing Low ...

Seems to me at the moment there are only two real candidates for a rugby anthem -- Swing Low and Jerusalem -- but for one reason or another, neither of them has quite taken hold, as an anthem.

Perhaps something new will come along, the time is ripe...

L'irlandais
14-01-16, 12:01
The list of suggestions is pretty long : http://anthem4england.co.uk/anthems/

"Walk on" is about the only one of those suggestions I find stirring.
Is this a little like the Irish National Anthem being replaced with "Ireland's call" for away games ; A very good idea, but still fails to inspire everybody?

crossref
14-01-16, 12:01
The list of suggestions is pretty long : http://anthem4england.co.uk/anthems/

"Walk on" is about the only one of those suggestions I find stirring.
Is this a little like the Irish National Anthem being replaced with "Ireland's call" for away games ; A very good idea, but still fails to inspire everybody?

The Ireland rugby team represents the whole island of Ireland, so the ROI National Anthem is not appropriate, and is not the teams anthem.

They do play it at home games, because they are Dublin, if they ever played a home game in Belfast they'd have to play God Save the Queen, so I don't suppose they'll ever play a home game in Belfast!

L'irlandais
14-01-16, 12:01
For home games they play both anthems.
Given that God save the Queen was applauded at Croke Park, I don't think anyone at the IRFU would have problems with a home game in Belfast.


Ravenhill has hosted 18 international matches, including pool games in both the 1991 and 1999 Rugby World Cups. The most recent Ireland international played at the stadium was on 24 August 2007 against Italy in a warm-up match for the 2007 Rugby World Cup

When the Ireland Under-19 team played in the IRB World Championships at Ravenhill in April 2007, God Save the Queen wasn't played, only Ireland's Call, and nothing was said about that."

The 2007 Ireland v Italy RWC warm up game anthems can be heard here http://youtu.be/TntE0-fBzyU
Once again only Ireland's Call was played.

On current form, expect to see a good few Ulster players in the 6 nations squad.

L'irlandais
14-01-16, 12:01
...if they ever played a home game in Belfast they'd have to play God Save the Queen, so I don't suppose they'll ever play a home game in Belfast!To be honest, more a question of revenue for the IRFU in my view. Nobody felt obliged to play God save the Queen there for those recent matches. Kingspan Stadium (formerly known as Ravenhill) has a capacity of just over 18 thousand, while the Aviva Stadium has a capacity for 51,700 spectators (all seated).

crossref
14-01-16, 13:01
I guess we could summarise by saying that the anthem of the Ireland rugby team is Ireland's Call, and it's not really clear why they sometimes also play the anthem of one of the countries involved, but never the other.

During the troubles wasn't it the case that England didn't get to have any anthem played when away in Dublin, as God Save the Queen was considered too inflammatory ?

didds
14-01-16, 13:01
IIRC no away team had their anthem played during those times, because of this reason

didds

crossref
14-01-16, 13:01
wikipedia tells me


When Irish internationals were played alternately in Belfast and Dublin, the UK national anthem was played for matches in Belfast and the national anthem of Ireland "Amhrn na bhFiann" was played for matches in Dublin.[citation needed] No anthem was played at away games.


On 27 February 1954, Ireland played Scotland at Ravenhill in Belfast. The eleven Republic-based players protested "God Save the Queen", and an abbreviated anthem known as "the Salute" was instead played. Ireland beat Scotland 6–0, and did not play in Northern Ireland again until 2007.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland_national_rugby_union_team

L'irlandais
14-01-16, 13:01
I agree crossref only Wiki isn't always reliable as a source :


(It would not be until 1954, when McCarthy was captain and reported that several on the team would not be standing for God Save the Queen, that Ireland moved their home games permanently to Dublin.)note that the 1948 Grand Slam decider against Wales was played in Belfast without any controversy.

So now a days, players and fans are more interested in the rugby, than in political correctness. I for one am glad, rugby is shaking off the shackles of politics in sport.

Between 1877 -1889 7 Ireland matches were played at Ormeau, Belfast
1891 - 1894 3 matches played at Ballynafeigh, Belfast
1898-1921 11 matches played at Balmoral Showgrounds, Belfast
1924 - 2007 16 matches played at Ravenhill, Belfast.
Source ESPNscrum(dot)com. http://stats.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/stats/index.html?class=1;home_or_away=1;orderby=date;spa nmax1=18+Dec+1954;spanval1=span;team=3;template=re sults;type=team;view=ground

Looking at the match list, it is not really every second home match played in Belfast. Far from it. Anyway for 35 Belfast home games the British anthem was played, with little thought to players sensibilities. For 1 match (1954, against Scotland). A shortened salute was played.
My original point was that should England get a new anthem, it won't inspire 100% of the population.

Rushforth
14-01-16, 13:01
http://www.blakearchive.org/exist/blake/archive/object.xq?objectid=milton.a.illbk.02&java=no

"The MILL has a function inferior to the creative Plow: it is Reason working on the ideas furnished by the Imagination. Thus it symbolizes Aristotelean logic, the basis of dogmatism.

...

In Milton, the mill's are Satan's, whose inferior work is contrasted with the creative agriculture of Palamabron. When Satan undertakes the harrowing so disasterously, Palambron shifts to Satan's mills ("the easier task"); but under his influence the servants of the mills get intoxicated, and Los stops the grinding (8:4-23). The "dark Satanic Mills" of the opening hymn (1:8) visualise as the enormous mills of the Industrial Revolution, but signify the philosophy under which all of England was suffering.

..."

https://archive.org/details/ABlakeDictionary-DamonS.Foster

SimonSmith
14-01-16, 14:01
It must have been very much the same time that England crowds started to sing Swing Low ...


England started that tune when Chris Oti had a blinder against Ireland in '88

John3822
14-01-16, 14:01
How about just changing the tune for the current one? Billy Connolly once suggested the theme to 'The Archers'. Can't get more English......:biggrin:

Pegleg
14-01-16, 16:01
So what is your reference source?
The BBC also go with the industrial revolution angle.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35304508


Numerous books on Blake, My Eng lit prof. Blake was a London boy, He did not venture far. The mill owners would have certainly been included in the classes that he was attacking but it was the Ruling elite specifically the centres of learning and control (the universities and the establihment including its churches). Symbols of the control and oppression of the people.

crossref
14-01-16, 16:01
Numerous books on Blake, My Eng lit prof. Blake was a London boy, He did not venture far. The mill owners would have certainly been included in the classes that he was attacking but it was the Ruling elite specifically the centres of learning and control (the universities and the establihment including its churches). Symbols of the control and oppression of the people.

was he a scrum-half?

Phil E
14-01-16, 17:01
Numerous books on Blake, My Eng lit prof. Blake was a London boy, He did not venture far. The mill owners would have certainly been included in the classes that he was attacking but it was the Ruling elite specifically the centres of learning and control (the universities and the establihment including its churches). Symbols of the control and oppression of the people.

....or maybe he just wrote about what he saw?

Rushforth
14-01-16, 17:01
My Eng lit prof.

James Dixon?

Pegleg
14-01-16, 17:01
....or maybe he just wrote about what he saw?

In the south east of England. Indeed he did.

Rushforth
14-01-16, 18:01
In the south east of England. Indeed he did.

Southwark.

"The factory could have driven independent traditional millers out of business, but it was destroyed in 1791 by fire, perhaps deliberately. London's independent millers celebrated with placards reading, "Success to the mills of ALBION but no Albion Mills."[10] Opponents referred to the factory as satanic, and accused its owners of adulterating flour and using cheap imports at the expense of British producers. A contemporary illustration of the fire shows a devil squatting on the building.[11] The mills were a short distance from Blake's home."

I realise that this does not fit your Weltanschauung, but apparently there were mills even in big cities and the south of England during the industrial revolution. Clearly Blake would not have had access to imagery of other mills elsewhere, what with there being no photographers back then. Oh wait, he was an engraver himself? Perhaps people back then had other ways of making images too!

4eyesbetter
14-01-16, 18:01
Are you really having a scrap over the finer details of Blake? Can we do Lady Chatterley's Lover next month?

Rushforth
14-01-16, 19:01
Are you really having a scrap over the finer details of Blake? Can we do Lady Chatterley's Lover next month?

Is that the one where Sean Bean doesn't die for a change?

Pegleg
14-01-16, 21:01
Southwark.

"The factory could have driven independent traditional millers out of business, but it was destroyed in 1791 by fire, perhaps deliberately. London's independent millers celebrated with placards reading, "Success to the mills of ALBION but no Albion Mills."[10] Opponents referred to the factory as satanic, and accused its owners of adulterating flour and using cheap imports at the expense of British producers. A contemporary illustration of the fire shows a devil squatting on the building.[11] The mills were a short distance from Blake's home."

I realise that this does not fit your Weltanschauung, but apparently there were mills even in big cities and the south of England during the industrial revolution. Clearly Blake would not have had access to imagery of other mills elsewhere, what with there being no photographers back then. Oh wait, he was an engraver himself? Perhaps people back then had other ways of making images too!

The extent of mills in his area were nothing like the mills in the North west that are said by some to be the Dark Satanic ones. Perhaps thinking is going back that way but not in my time. When people write that style of writing they more often transfer the imagery as part of the process. But Hey ho enjoy.

Rushforth
14-01-16, 21:01
The extent of mills in his area were nothing like the mills in the North west that are said by some to be the Dark Satanic ones. Perhaps thinking is going back that way but not in my time. When people write that style of writing they more often transfer the imagery as part of the process. But Hey ho enjoy.

So what you are trying to argue is that he used the term "dark satanic mills" as not only an allegory, but also for something he had never seen himself. Edit: bad wording on my part, but I hope you understand.

It makes more sense to me that a poetic allegorical phrase is based on a literal interpretation first, and perhaps means "something" meant by the author. If it hadn't meant something literal too, the man might as well have written "dark satanic chocolate", after all.

Did he mean more than that? Well this Jesus chappy (did anybody see JC? Changes water into wine) gets described as a "lamb of God", so I think it is fair to say that perhaps Blake did mean more than just a burned-out mill in Southwark.

It remains a great leap to use the term "Oxbridge" just because somebody else did. Winchester much?

crossref
15-01-16, 12:01
'there's nothing patriotic about Blake's Jerusalem'
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/theres-nothing-patriotic-about-william-blakes-jerusalem/

SimonSmith
15-01-16, 13:01
Are you really having a scrap over the finer details of Blake? Can we do Lady Chatterley's Lover next month?

Sadly Her Ladyship beat us to it

Phil E
15-01-16, 14:01
'there's nothing patriotic about Blake's Jerusalem'
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/01/theres-nothing-patriotic-about-william-blakes-jerusalem/

Who cares about patriotism?
We just want a good tune we can all bellow out at the top of our lungs.

I vote for "Hearts of Oak".

4eyesbetter
15-01-16, 15:01
Sadly Her Ladyship beat us to it

Thank God there's someone here who knows an open goal when he sees one

crossref
15-01-16, 17:01
Who cares about patriotism?
We just want a good tune we can all bellow out at the top of our lungs.
.


we already have one of those...... swing low ... sweet chariot ...

but an anthem ... pretty much by definition that has to be patriotic.

SimonSmith
15-01-16, 18:01
Thank God there's someone here who knows an open goal when he sees one
Courtesy of History Teacher

"Sir, when are we doing Catherine the Great?"
"Horse beat us to it lads"

crossref
15-01-16, 18:01
did you just do one joke twice?

Rushforth
15-01-16, 18:01
did you just do one joke twice?

He brings "doing" to a whole new level.

Edit: "The importance of doing Earnest" would be... interesting.

4eyesbetter
15-01-16, 19:01
Excuse me, I've got a few ads to post on Craigslist...

Rushforth
15-01-16, 19:01
Can open goals be sold

Dickie E
15-01-16, 21:01
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OidSD14mGE&spfreload=10

too easy

Dixie
15-01-16, 23:01
Thank God there's someone here who knows an open goal when he sees one
Wasn't that the gardener?

L'irlandais
16-01-16, 00:01
That'd be "Lady Ottoline Morrell's Lover" (unpublished work)

Dixie
16-01-16, 18:01
The okey-cokey.

The worst thing that could happen is there is a competiton for a totally new anthem. then we'll either end up with some jingoistic dirge, or something that sounds as if its been recorded by (random choice) Atomic Kitten.

I have to disagree. England lacks a history of raucous or inspiring folk songs, though you can find them in separate regions where songs like The Blaydon Races (North East) or You'll Never Walk Alone (North West) can get a large section of the community united. But countrywide, there's nothing to match Danny Boy for example.

Because of this lack, all the talk is of the very few songs that people DO know - but because the "people" here are largely privately educated and/or middle class, they've gone for hymns (Jerusalem) and classical (Land of Hope and Glory). The population at large (say 90% of a football crowd) have no idea of the words of these songs, and frankly anything that includes the words thee or thy should automatically be binned. The notes of LOHAG are far too high pitched for a choir comprising largely male voices, and the words are archaic too. Ditch those two and there's nothing left -we need to start afresh.

The closest thing to a totemic anthem in my lifetime was Football's Coming Home. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AbbgeVaJwI) That was a bit of a laugh from a couple of comics. I'm sure that the English music industry could do the job for a generic sporting anthem.

L'irlandais
16-01-16, 18:01
How's about John Lennon's imagine?
Make for a great anthem, one cannot get more English than the Beatles, surely? :eng:

Dixie
16-01-16, 18:01
How's about John Lennon's imagine?
Make for a great anthem, one cannot get more English than the Beatles, surely? :eng:

So you want England to sing a slow, plodding song along the lines of "imagine there's no countries - it isn't hard to do. Nothing to sing or play for, and no religion too"? I can see that going down well as a unifying force. Are you just stirring the pot? [do you see what I did there?]

If we're going to nick an existing song, Queen have all the best tunes, and a proper name for a monarchy too.
It's a kind of magic, Killer Queen, or .... Bohemian Rhapsody! I see a little silhouetto of a man

L'irlandais
16-01-16, 19:01
Remember that The fields of Athenry is a Munster Anthem.
So no not stirring the pot.

Stirring from me would be suggesting The Muppets Mah N Mah N.

How about The Beatles Hey Jude.?

Rushforth
16-01-16, 19:01
Always look on the bright side of life.

Rich_NL
18-01-16, 09:01
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaBdajHOsSM

Rousing *and* patriotic.