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Paule23
19-01-16, 15:01
I know the accepted wisdom that a player the ground is out of the game, but does anyone have a specific law reference for this?

say for example a player is on the floor having completed a tackle in the previous phase, then a loose ball pops his way and he grabs and passes it, whilst still on the floor. What specifically law states he can't do this? I've had a look but I'm struggling to find something. There are quite a few laws you can infer this is incorrect from (tackle law for example) but I can't find anything that essentially says if you're off your feet (in open play) you're out of the game.

Rushforth
19-01-16, 15:01
http://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=14

didds
19-01-16, 15:01
This could run and run....

didds

Phil E
19-01-16, 16:01
This could run and run....

didds


Unlike the player off his feet :tongue:

crossref
19-01-16, 16:01
say for example a player is on the floor having completed a tackle in the previous phase, then a loose ball pops his way and he grabs and passes it, whilst still on the floor. What specifically law states he can't do this? I've had a look but I'm struggling to find something. .

this is a hole in the Laws and there are two camps

- one camp says he is out of the game cannot play the ball; he must get to his feet before he can play the ball
- the other camp says that as he is on the ground he has the options in 14.1 - ie pass it or get up with it.

you have to make up your own mind :)

Paule23
19-01-16, 21:01
Thanks, not sure why I could not find Law 14, pretty clear it's there!

So, clear in law you can't tackle, a possible grey area if the ball heads you way whilst you are on the floor, say you grab it, then interpretation is either a) this is not allowed, penalise or b) they have options from 14.1 (release, pass etc).

Pay your money, take your choice.

Thanks for the input.

Rushforth
19-01-16, 22:01
clear in law you can't tackle

Yet somewhat buried all the same. The tackle part is perhaps the only one which is potentially dangerous; as a coach I dislike introducing tackles by kneeling players to anything but small children.

The ball arriving at a player who is "already getting up" can be taken either way, and is generally safe. Easy penalty if there is a player on his feet contesting the ball without flopping all over it.

didds
20-01-16, 00:01
as a coach I dislike introducing tackles by kneeling players to anything but small children.

FTR, the RFU "Rugby Ready" course which is a prerequisite to its formal "Level 1" and "level2" courses (now having far grander names FWTW!) has dropped the on-the-knees part of the tackle continuum.

didds

Dixie
20-01-16, 17:01
As Crossref says, there is a hole in the laws. In dealing with it, we need to try to achieve consistency by trying to consider all the possible scenarios that might apply. Let me offer these for consideration ...

Muddy day. Blue desperately defending their line. A ruck forms just short of the line and ...

a) a Blue ex-rucker, on the deck, has rolled clear and is onside by virtue of being behind the goal line. The ball squirts out, straight into his arms. He grounds it making it dead. Restart?

b) same scenario as a), but the ball squirts out 50cm away from our man, and he stretches out and grounds the ball. Restart?

c) Red 8 picks from the base, is tackled on the line, passes inside to Red 6 who crosses the line but fumbles backwards. Red 8, still on the deck after the tackle, reaches out and grounds the ball. Decision?

d) Same as c), but Blue 7 (who had tackled Red 8) reaches out and grounds the ball fractionally before Red 8 can get his hand to it.

e) Same scenario as d), but Red 7, on his feet, is denied the opportunity to ground the ball by Blue 7's action.

Phil E
20-01-16, 17:01
As Crossref says, there is a hole in the laws. In dealing with it, we need to try to achieve consistency by trying to consider all the possible scenarios that might apply. Let me offer these for consideration ...

Muddy day. Blue desperately defending their line. A ruck forms just short of the line and ...

a) a Blue ex-rucker, on the deck, has rolled clear and is onside by virtue of being behind the goal line. The ball squirts out, straight into his arms. He grounds it making it dead. Restart?

b) same scenario as a), but the ball squirts out 50cm away from our man, and he stretches out and grounds the ball. Restart?

c) Red 8 picks from the base, is tackled on the line, passes inside to Red 6 who crosses the line but fumbles backwards. Red 8, still on the deck after the tackle, reaches out and grounds the ball. Decision?

d) Same as c), but Blue 7 (who had tackled Red 8) reaches out and grounds the ball fractionally before Red 8 can get his hand to it.

e) Same scenario as d), but Red 7, on his feet, is denied the opportunity to ground the ball by Blue 7's action.

All of those take place in-goal, outside the field of play, where you also can't have a ruck or a maul or a scrum or a tackle.
It doesn't compare to the OP which was inside the field of play.
Apples and Oranges.

crossref
20-01-16, 17:01
All of those take place in-goal, outside the field of play, where you also can't have a ruck or a maul or a scrum or a tackle.
It doesn't compare to the OP which was inside the field of play.
Apples and Oranges.

so on that basis would you let a player on the ground in the in-goal reach up and tackle a player passing with the ball?

d)
A player on the ground must not tackle or attempt to tackle an opponent.

ie does that apply in-goal? (to me it does)

crossref
20-01-16, 17:01
blue player is cleared out of a ruck and ends up on the ground, on his side of the ruck, behind back feet. so onside

to keep out of his scrum-half's way he remains on the ground but the ball unexpectedly comes out of the back of the ruck, straight to him, he grabs it and pop-passes it back to his scrum-half...

Phil E
20-01-16, 17:01
so on that basis would you let a player on the ground in the in-goal reach up and tackle a player passing with the ball?

d)
A player on the ground must not tackle or attempt to tackle an opponent.

ie does that apply in-goal? (to me it does)

No it doesn't apply in-goal.
That would not be a tackle.

15.1 WHERE CAN A TACKLE TAKE PLACE
A tackle can only take place in the field of play.

crossref
20-01-16, 17:01
good answer!

crossref
20-01-16, 17:01
blue player is winded after a tackle and lying on ground on his own 5m line, play is further upfield on blue 22m

red grubber kick, and ball happens to come towards him with red chaser in hot pursuit. Still lying on the ground, he turns onto his side and manages to toe poke the ball into touch.

Dickie E
20-01-16, 21:01
blue player is winded after a tackle and lying on ground on his own 5m line, play is further upfield on blue 22m

red grubber kick, and ball happens to come towards him with red chaser in hot pursuit. Still lying on the ground, he turns onto his side and manages to toe poke the ball into touch.

play on

Dickie E
20-01-16, 21:01
blue player is cleared out of a ruck and ends up on the ground, on his side of the ruck, behind back feet. so onside

to keep out of his scrum-half's way he remains on the ground but the ball unexpectedly comes out of the back of the ruck, straight to him, he grabs it and pop-passes it back to his scrum-half...

play on

Rich_NL
21-01-16, 12:01
I had this in an early match; as it was, I hesitated before blowing and ended up playing advantage. It felt like an offence, but looking through the laws it seems quite clearly and expressly permitted to pop the ball up if it rolls to you on the ground (law 14.1). I checked with some more senior refs and there was a discussion but they agreed... Since then I've allowed it.

14.1 Players on the ground(a)

A player with the ball must immediately do one of three things:





Get up with the ball
Pass the ball
Release the ball.

This doesn't cover knocking the ball into touch, interfering with players on their feet or anything else.

crossref
21-01-16, 12:01
the thing is, you have quoted only part of the Law. The full Law is this, and the defintions are important


14 Ball on the ground No Tackle

DEFINITIONS
This situation occurs when the ball is available on the ground and a player goes to ground to gather the ball, except immediately after a scrum or a ruck.
It also occurs when a player is on the ground in possession of the ball and has not been tackled.
The Game is to be played by players who are on their feet. A player must not make the ball unplayable by falling down. Unplayable means that the ball is not immediately available to either team so that play may continue.
A player who makes the ball unplayable, or who obstructs the opposing team by falling down, is negating the purpose and Spirit of the Game and must be penalised.
A player who is not tackled, but who goes to ground while holding the ball, or a player who goes to ground and gathers the ball, must act immediately.
14.1 Players on the ground
(a)
A player with the ball must immediately do one of three things:
Get up with the ball
Pass the ball
Release the ball.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(b)
A player who passes or releases the ball must also get up or move away from it at once.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(c)
A player without the ball must not lie on, over, or near the ball to prevent opponents getting possession of it.
Sanction: Penalty kick

(d)
A player on the ground must not tackle or attempt to tackle an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty kick

So the Law is written with the expectation that a player has gone to ground to with the ball, or has gone to ground to get possession of the ball.

the question is : does this also apply when a player is on the ground for some other reason, and the ball happens to come to him.

Dickie E
21-01-16, 12:01
the question is : does this also apply when a player is on the ground for some other reason, and the ball happens to come to him.

A player who is not tackled, but who goes to ground while holding the ball, or a player who goes to ground and gathers the ball, must act immediately.

Seems crystal to me.

Rich_NL
21-01-16, 12:01
So the Law is written with the expectation that a player has gone to ground to with the ball, or has gone to ground to get possession of the ball.

the question is : does this also apply when a player is on the ground for some other reason, and the ball happens to come to him.

I can't see why not, they're covered under "It also occurs when a player is on the ground in possession of the ball and has not been tackled".

Camquin
22-01-16, 19:01
It also says "The game is played by players who are on their feet."
So you can read it either way.

Ambiguity found in RU Laws. Film at eleven.
In other news, something is wrong on the Internet.
We are also hearing rumours the the Pope so Catholic and ursines defocate in arboreal areas.

Dickie E
22-01-16, 21:01
It also says "The game is played by players who are on their feet."


While that is a general principle there are so many instances where that isn't true to render it useless for specific cases.

ChrisR
22-01-16, 22:01
The complete paragraph is:

The Game is to be played by players who are on their feet. A player must not make
the ball unplayable by falling down. Unplayable means that the ball is not
immediately available to either team so that play may continue.

Seems to me that this paragraph deals with players going to ground and killing the ball. I wouldn't take the first sentence out of the context of the paragraph.

The immediately preceding paragraph:

It also occurs when a player is on the ground in possession of the ball and has not
been tackled.

This would describe a player who is on the ground and receives the ball. He must act as if he went to ground to recovfer the ball.

OB..
23-01-16, 02:01
It also occurs when a player is on the ground in possession of the ball and has not
been tackled.

This would describe a player who is on the ground and receives the ball. He must act as if he went to ground to recovfer the ball.It could also merely be intended to cover the case of a ball carrier who has fallen over or been tap tackled.

It is simply not clear which law, if any, is supposed to cover a player who is lying on the ground and then gets a chance to play the ball.

The Fat
23-01-16, 02:01
Well we all know the view of the SANZAR ref boss on this topic from his responses to Robbie's questions a couple of seasons back and I have seen a couple of top refs (Barnes and Owens) make decisions in line with Lyndon Bray's interpretation during this season's ERC.
Player who is on the ground (other than a ball carrier or a player who has specifically gone to ground to get possession) and has the ball come to him is out of the game.

The Fat
23-01-16, 06:01
Well we all know the view of the SANZAR ref boss on this topic from his responses to Robbie's questions a couple of seasons back and I have seen a couple of top refs (Barnes and Owens) make decisions in line with Lyndon Bray's interpretation during this season's ERC.
Player who is on the ground (other than a ball carrier or a player who has specifically gone to ground to get possession) and has the ball come to him is out of the game.

Copy of Robbie's question to Lyndon Bray and LB's response.

Question 3:
Lyndon, Embedded in the Law 14 Definitions is the sentence
“The Game is to be played by players who are on their feet.”

However the previous sentence is
“It also occurs when a player is on the ground in possession of the ball and has not been tackled.”

Some people interpret this as allowing a player to play the ball when he is already on the ground and the ball subsequently comes to him. Others argue that Law 14 only permits two exceptions to the general principle:
(1) a player who falls on a loose ball to recover possession;
(2) a player who falls over when in possession of the ball eg tap tackled, or merely slipped. Which is correct?

LB:
I think the law is quite clear in this case. There are two instances whereby a player can legitimately be on the ground with the ball in his possession:

- a player is already carrying the ball and goes to ground (tackled or falls over), or
- a player dives onto the ball which is on the ground, in order to gain possession.

It is clear to me that if a player is already on the ground, he cannot then "play the ball" without first getting to his feet.

Dickie E
23-01-16, 08:01
The BS meter started going haywire at this one:


I think the law is quite clear in this case.

Blackberry
23-01-16, 11:01
This pretty well works every time;
How did the player get to the ground?
a) Tackled; gotta play, place or pass if she has the ball, cannot get involved in anyway if she doesn't have it
b) Fell, dived, tripped; has all the same rights as a player on her feet except if she has possession she must relinquish it to a challenging player on her feet.

ChrisR
23-01-16, 12:01
It could also merely be intended to cover the case of a ball carrier who has fallen over or been tap tackled.

It is simply not clear which law, if any, is supposed to cover a player who is lying on the ground and then gets a chance to play the ball.

Yes, I agree on all points.

There is no specific law that covers a ball carrier who slips and falls. We know that he can regain his feet with the ball, or play the ball.

I think the absence of law speaks (OK, mutters).

A player who receives the ball on the ground must act immediately to play the ball, get up with it or relinquish it to an opponent who challenges.

OB..
23-01-16, 13:01
A player who receives the ball on the ground must act immediately to play the ball, get up with it or relinquish it to an opponent who challenges.It could also be that he is out of the game - according to Lyndon Bray.

ChrisR
23-01-16, 14:01
...... and how would Lyndon Bray rule on this:

The ball is passed toward a player who has slipped and fallen to one knee. The receiver catches the ball with one knee on the ground and ......?

Was the receiving player "out of the game"? Or do we play on? Or, does Lyndon Bray make it up as he goes along?

Treadmore
23-01-16, 19:01
Nigel Owens allowed one today: breakdown, ruck, ball comes out to (Saracens) player on the ground who swiftly pops it up to a team-mate. No-one batted an eye-lid.

ChrisR
23-01-16, 20:01
Or, does Lyndon Bray make it up as he goes along?

My point being that we need some consistency.

- - - Updated - - -

Or, does Lyndon Bray make it up as he goes along?

My point being that we need some consistency.

The Fat
23-01-16, 20:01
Nigel Owens allowed one today: breakdown, ruck, ball comes out to (Saracens) player on the ground who swiftly pops it up to a team-mate. No-one batted an eye-lid.

In that case, Nigel is being inconsistent. I have seen him ping a player for the same thing

The Fat
23-01-16, 20:01
Here is Jaco Peyper applying the law correctly IMO with the commentators agreeing with him. However, SA refs are having a bet each way.

http://www.sareferees.com/laws/view/2830459/

MrQeu
24-01-16, 18:01
In that case, Nigel is being inconsistent. I have seen him ping a player for the same thing

I don't recall the incident Treadmore is recalling from yestereday, but he pinged Camara for baticng back a ball that had came out of a ruck.

He made the handling the ball in the ruck signal, but... the ball had already been out. For a second I'd say.

crossref
24-01-16, 19:01
Here is Jaco Peyper applying the law correctly IMO with the commentators agreeing with him. However, SA refs are having a bet each way.

http://www.sareferees.com/laws/view/2830459/

great clip. I wouldhave played on

Rushforth
24-01-16, 19:01
great clip. I wouldhave played on

I wouldn't have spotted it myself probably ("wtf?") but great example as you say.

crossref
24-01-16, 22:01
I guess with those clips and events the thread has come full circle.. The Laws is ambiguous and even top refs don't agree how this scenario should be reffed.

Dickie E
24-01-16, 22:01
However, SA refs are having a bet each way.


Well, they conclude with:


Alberts passed the ball immediately.

Then it seems play should have gone on.