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View Full Version : [In-goal] Common myth or truth ? Cant be offisde in-goal



CrouchTPEngage
31-01-16, 18:01
Had a game this weekend where yellow defence had taken it into their own in-goal area. Yellow 10 tried a clearance kick but was under so much pressure he fluffed it and it went forward but actually to his team-mate who was in-goal but in-front of the kicker. Nice catch.
Cue coach telling me that "you can only be offside in the field of play".
Was he right ? I've has a quick scan and cant find any law reference if so ?
Any ideas ?

( I am dubious because this was the same coach who shouted the classic "But he's got to let him get up before going for the ball" nonsense )

Cheers,

RobLev
31-01-16, 18:01
Had a game this weekend where yellow defence had taken it into their own in-goal area. Yellow 10 tried a clearance kick but was under so much pressure he fluffed it and it went forward but actually to his team-mate who was in-goal but in-front of the kicker. Nice catch.
Cue coach telling me that "you can only be offside in the field of play".
Was he right ? I've has a quick scan and cant find any law reference if so ?
Any ideas ?

( I am dubious because this was the same coach who shouted the classic "But he's got to let him get up before going for the ball" nonsense )

Cheers,

Looks like you were right to be dubious: Law 11.1(a):

...A player can be offside in the in-goal.

4eyesbetter
31-01-16, 19:01
In our code you cannot be offside in your own in-goal area. Sounds like we need OB to tell us if he can find a law change.

RobLev
31-01-16, 19:01
In our code you cannot be offside in your own in-goal area. Sounds like we need OB to tell us if he can find a law change.

It's clear from Law 23 in the 1871 Laws (http://www.rugbyfootballhistory.com/resources/Laws/Full/1871laws.pdf) that you could even then be offside in in-goal.

crossref
31-01-16, 20:01
the confusion comes because there are no offside lines in the in goal area.... ( because offside lines are created by rucks/mauls/scrums and these don't exist in goal)

so certain types of offside are indeed impossible in goal

RobLev
31-01-16, 20:01
the confusion comes because there are no offside lines in the in goal area.... ( because offside lines are created by rucks/mauls/scrums and these don't exist in goal)

so certain types of offside are indeed impossible in goal

Indeed; and after giving my reply above, I realised that RR.com had had previous threads on this - one here (http://www.rugbyrefs.com/archive/index.php/t-4945.html?).

Dickie E
31-01-16, 21:01
Had a game this weekend where yellow defence had taken it into their own in-goal area. Yellow 10 tried a clearance kick but was under so much pressure he fluffed it and it went forward but actually to his team-mate who was in-goal but in-front of the kicker. Nice catch.
Cue coach telling me that "you can only be offside in the field of play".
Was he right ? I've has a quick scan and cant find any law reference if so ?
Any ideas ?

( I am dubious because this was the same coach who shouted the classic "But he's got to let him get up before going for the ball" nonsense )

Cheers,

What decision did you make? This can be a penalty try situation under the right circumstances.

Shelflife
31-01-16, 22:01
Assuming that is a team coach as opposed to a ref coach you were talking about, the golden rule is never ever ever listen to coaches when it comes to law knowledge!

Ian_Cook
01-02-16, 00:02
the confusion comes because there are no offside lines in the in goal area.... ( because offside lines are created by rucks/mauls/scrums and these don't exist in goal)

so certain types of offside are indeed impossible in goal

I agree, there is no "phase" offside in-goal, but General Play still happens in-goal so a player can still be offside in General Play.

Some confusion may arise among players who play both codes, RU and RL, because in the Laws of RL, a player cannot be offside in his own in-goal...

SECTION 14: OFFSIDE
When offside
1. A player is offside except when he is in his own in-goal if the ball touches, is touched, held or kicked, by one of his own team behind him.

didds
01-02-16, 12:02
Assuming that is a team coach as opposed to a ref coach you were talking about, the golden rule is never ever ever listen to coaches when it comes to law knowledge!

With one obvious exception of course...

;-)

didds

Taff
01-02-16, 14:02
Had a game this weekend where yellow defence had taken it into their own in-goal area. Yellow 10 tried a clearance kick but was under so much pressure he fluffed it and it went forward but actually to his team-mate who was in-goal but in-front of the kicker. Nice catch. Cue coach telling me that "you can only be offside in the field of play". Was he right?
No.

I suppose you could argue it was accidental offside (which is a scrum) instead of a PK offence. Without seeing it, it's impossible to say, but if the team mate made a deliberate attempt to go for the ball I'd be inclined to give the PK. By the same token, if the ball was kicked straight into his arms and he instinctively caught it, personally I would give a scrum for accidental offside.


the confusion comes because there are no offside lines in the in goal area.... ( because offside lines are created by rucks/mauls/scrums and these don't exist in goal) so certain types of offside are indeed impossible in goal
Good point.

Pegleg
01-02-16, 16:02
I'd argue that there is an offside line in general play!


It runs across the field parallel to the goal line and throught the ball carrier's feet (toenail maybe). Any team mate in front of that line is offside and liable to Penalty depending upon his actions. Agreed that there are no Ruck, Maul, Scrum or lineout offside lines.

Clearly, as has been quoted from law the open play offside line exists throughout the playing area and not just in the field of play

ChrisR
01-02-16, 17:02
With one obvious exception of course...

;-)

didds

Thank you, didds.

didds
01-02-16, 17:02
LOL and TOUCHE! That'll show me!

(make that "with the obvious exceptions" ;-)

didds

Ian_Cook
01-02-16, 19:02
I'd argue that there is an offside line in general play!


It runs across the field parallel to the goal line and throught the ball carrier's feet (toenail maybe). Any team mate in front of that line is offside and liable to Penalty depending upon his actions. Agreed that there are no Ruck, Maul, Scrum or lineout offside lines.

Of course, as you say, it only applies to team-mates of the ball carrier. The team not in possession when the ball is being carried, cannot be offside in General Play. Similarly the team who were not last to touch, play or hold a loose ball cannot be offside.

CrouchTPEngage
01-02-16, 21:02
I blew for offside. ( This wasnt a high level ) there were no attackers likely to catch the ball and score. In fact, the ball would have gone dead, touch-in-goal.
For me it looked like an attacking penalty 5 metres out in line with the offside player. It would have been harsh ( I felt ) to yellow-card him as deliberate at this level. He genuinely looked surprised. The coach was muttering something about "What ARE you on about ref? How can he be offside if he's in -goal ?!"

crossref
01-02-16, 22:02
I blew for offside. ( This wasnt a high level ) there were no attackers likely to catch the ball and score. In fact, the ball would have gone dead, touch-in-goal.
For me it looked like an attacking penalty 5 metres out in line with the offside player. It would have been harsh ( I felt ) to yellow-card him as deliberate at this level. He genuinely looked surprised. The coach was muttering something about "What ARE you on about ref? How can he be offside if he's in -goal ?!"

it's a big moment. you probably have accidental ? deliberate ? YC ? PT ? all running through your mind. Some players will be genuinely puzzled . The coach is yelling ---

.. and if the attackers are even a little bit switched on they'll be looking to grab the ball and take a quick tap in the confusion for a easy score.. Did they?

SimonSmith
02-02-16, 01:02
I have had a coach argue the no offside in-goal thing

I also had one (yes you angry little man at Esso Fawley in the mid/late 90s) argue that passes CAN go forward in goal with no sanction.

4eyesbetter
02-02-16, 01:02
I had a development officer who used to like asking people stupid questions to see what they'd say. One time in the pub he spent a solid fifteen minutes arguing that you can't throw a forward pass in-goal, because the offence in throwing a forward pass is throwing a pass to an offside player, and you can't be offside in-goal...

(What he was waiting for was for someone to say "bullshit, the definition of a forward pass in the law book is...", except they kept trying to argue his deliberately nonsensical logic and losing.)

Camquin
02-02-16, 09:02
Was there ever a time when forward was not 'towards the Dead Ball Line'.

Ian_Cook
02-02-16, 12:02
Was there ever a time when forward was not 'towards the Dead Ball Line'.


Probably not since the time that there wasn't a dead ball line... around 1862!!

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98915197/RugbyRefs/1862%20ground.png


AA AA. Lines of Goal.
PP. PP. Goal Posts.
TT. TT. Lines of Touch.
M. Imaginary place where mark is made after a touch down in goal.
O. Imaginary place whence kicked.
Q,Q,Q,Q, Touch in Goal

INTRODUCTION
Football is played on a large level field or piece of ground,near either end of which is erected a goal, composed of two upright posts eighteen feet high, with a crossbar placed ten feet from the ground.

From each goal a line is cut, called the line of goal, to the edge of the field; all the part behind this line is in goal, the part between the goals being the field of action.

The sides are marked off by lines similar to the lines of goal, and all the edge of the field outside them is said to be in touch.

The part behind the goal line and also behind the touch line is called Touch-in-goal (see Plan).

If the field in which the football is played is larger than the part on which the game is played, the touch lines and goal lines are considered as indefinitely produced

OB..
02-02-16, 12:02
Was there ever a time when forward was not 'towards the Dead Ball Line'.
187127. Knocking on i e deliberately hitting the ball with the hand and Throwing Forward ie throwing the ball in the direction of the opponents' goal line are not lawful
1908Knocking-On and Throwing-Forward, are propelling the ball by the hand or arm in the direction of. the opponents' in-goal
1949A knock-on occurs when the ball, after striking the hand or arm of a player, travels in the direction of his opponents' dead ball line.
I don't have exact dates for the changes.

OB..
02-02-16, 13:02
I had a coach yelling at me once that the referee cannot change his decision.

1999During a match, the referee is the sole judge of fact and of law. All his decisions are binding on the players. He cannot alter a decision unless he observes that a touch judge's flag is raised or before he has received a report from either or both of his touch judges relating to Section 4 (a).
2000The referee may alter a decision when a touch judge has raised his flag to signal touch or an act of foul play.In conjunction with the continuing assertion that the referee is "the sole judge of fact and law", this change in wording was taken to cover the sensible view that a referee could change his decision if he realised he had got it wrong.

I once heard a referee announce "Knock-on, scrum Green". This puzzled the players since neither side was wearing green. Tricky to enforce that one.

I have also heard "High tackle, penalty Blue" with his arm pointing to Red.