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View Full Version : [Line out] Rule 19.8 (i): when exactly has the line out commenced?



Jasper
15-02-16, 19:02
(i) Where the receiver must stand. If a team uses a receiver, then that player, must be positioned at least 2m back from team mates in the lineout, and between the 5m and 15m lines, until the lineout begins.

Once the lineout has commenced, the receiver may move into the lineout and may perform all actions available to players in the lineout and is liable to related sanctions.

In a recent match, my team was penalised when the receiver joined a short line out and was lifted. The ref said it was legal only if he joined after the ball leaves the hooker's hands. This had been my gut feeling when this move was first unveiled. But the rule says commenced. So when is that, exactly? 19.9(a) says The lineout begins when the ball leaves the hands of the player throwing it in. So 19.8 uses commenced while 19.9 uses begins. (The ref also said that it meant there was no receiver, and that we were obliged to have one, so that's obviously not correct)

We've used this move in a lot of games and this was the first time it was pulled up.

Phil E
15-02-16, 20:02
The line out begins, or commences, or starts, when the ball leaves the throwers hands.
The person in the SH position (which is optional) cannot join the line until that point.
Jumpers may not leave the ground until that point.

Pegleg
15-02-16, 21:02
Commenced and begins, basically they mean the same thing. I don't see any problem with this law. All a question of timing.

ChrisR
15-02-16, 23:02
Jaspar,

The usual objection to having the receiver join is that it creates a man advantage in the lineout. If your team wishes to continue having the receiver join then have a lineout player step out so the numbers don't change. An example would be to have your scrumhalf as the first man in the lineout step out as the jumper joins before the ball is thrown in.

crossref
15-02-16, 23:02
Jaspar,

The usual objection to having the receiver join is that it creates a man advantage in the lineout. If your team wishes to continue having the receiver join then have a lineout player step out so the numbers don't change. An example would be to have your scrumhalf as the first man in the lineout step out as the jumper joins before the ball is thrown in.

I think Jaspar has just 2 in the lineout, and the SH joins to get lifted unopposed.

Taff
15-02-16, 23:02
... If your team wishes to continue having the receiver join then have a lineout player step out so the numbers don't change.
Isn't that a PK offence for leaving the LO before it's over? I suppose the person leaving could claim he was "peeling" but then he'd have to keep moving and stay within the 10m x 10m LO area.

ChrisR
15-02-16, 23:02
I think Jaspar has just 2 in the lineout, and the SH joins to get lifted unopposed.

Understood, though he said "short lineout" in the OP. And the thrower comes around as the receiver, as in 7s. However, that practice was discussed and denounced here a couple of years ago so I'm a bit surprised that his team has gone this long.

What I'm suggesting is an alternative that doesn't conflict with law.

crossref
15-02-16, 23:02
Isn't that a PK offence for leaving the LO before it's over? I suppose the person leaving could claim he was "peeling" but then he'd have to keep moving and stay within the 10m x 10m LO area.

no becasue

(c)
Players may change their positions in the lineout before the ball is thrown in.

ChrisR
15-02-16, 23:02
Isn't that a PK offence for leaving the LO before it's over? I suppose the person leaving could claim he was "peeling" but then he'd have to keep moving and stay within the 10m x 10m LO area.

No since the position change happens before the lineout starts.

Taff
15-02-16, 23:02
No since the position change happens before the lineout starts.
So what are they gaining? They lose one and gain one.

crossref
15-02-16, 23:02
So what are they gaining? They lose one and gain one.

surprise!

#1 leaves LO, and the SH comes in between 3 and 4 and is lifted

ChrisR
15-02-16, 23:02
crossref, you're quicker than I or perhaps you don't have dialup.

ChrisR
16-02-16, 00:02
This is how it works for us:

Four men in the line, SH at 1 with lifters at 2, 3 & 4 but spaced out with last lifter at the 15m.

The jumper, coming in from the receiver position can join anywhere in the line and the lifters move to form a pod. It's a variation on shuffling places.

Taff
16-02-16, 00:02
It's been a long day and I'm having a brain fart here.

When do the numbers get counted? Before the LO starts, or while the LO is taking place?

19.8(b) doesn't say, but I assume it's the number in the LO immediately before the ball leaves the throwers hands that count.

ChrisR
16-02-16, 00:02
Correct. And since the number stay the same (1 in, 1 out) then everything is OK.

The Fat
16-02-16, 05:02
It's been a long day and I'm having a brain fart here.

When do the numbers get counted? Before the LO starts, or while the LO is taking place?

19.8(b) doesn't say, but I assume it's the number in the LO immediately before the ball leaves the throwers hands that count.

Correct. So if each team has 3 in the LO and both have a receiver with say red to throw in, after the ball leaves the red thrower's hands, the red receiver can run into the LO. So yes, a 4 on 3

didds
16-02-16, 07:02
Jasper, if its any help, we use something similar but use the tail gunner as a rover entering a gap, and the receiver stays still.

Didds

Taff
16-02-16, 09:02
OK, but there's nothing stopping the opposition using the same tactic and having a 3 on 2.

ChrisR
16-02-16, 13:02
OK, but there's nothing stopping the opposition using the same tactic and having a 3 on 2.

Yes, the receiver joining is not limited to the throwing team.

Jasper
29-02-16, 21:02
Apologies- I should've been more clear.

The original line out was a 2 man, with a flanker standing in the receiver position. At the last moment, he joins the line and is lifted to gather the ball unopposed. The opposition usually match the players and put their flanker in to mark, but they don't usually respond quickly enough to get him off the ground. Our lifted flanker then either comes to ground and pops to the now-galloping hooker or passes off the top to him for an attack along the tramlines.

It's a move I dislike as I feel it breaks several aspects of the laws as the extra man invariably joins well before the ball leaves the thrower's hands. And it feels like cheating, which is the part I find hardest to deal with. However, very few refs penalise it for the receiver joining- it far more often fails because the throw is crooked!

My original post was really just me looking for some way I can justify retaining it, as it is a very potent weapon, and- when not penalised- often leads to a score off the subsequent phases.

RobLev
01-03-16, 14:03
(i) Where the receiver must stand. If a team uses a receiver, then that player, must be positioned at least 2m back from team mates in the lineout, and between the 5m and 15m lines, until the lineout begins.

Once the lineout has commenced, the receiver may move into the lineout and may perform all actions available to players in the lineout and is liable to related sanctions.

In a recent match, my team was penalised when the receiver joined a short line out and was lifted. The ref said it was legal only if he joined after the ball leaves the hooker's hands. This had been my gut feeling when this move was first unveiled. But the rule says commenced. So when is that, exactly? 19.9(a) says The lineout begins when the ball leaves the hands of the player throwing it in. So 19.8 uses commenced while 19.9 uses begins. (The ref also said that it meant there was no receiver, and that we were obliged to have one, so that's obviously not correct)

We've used this move in a lot of games and this was the first time it was pulled up.

I know I'm late on this, but here goes:

The general view in these parts is that the Laws were written by a 12-year-old work experience trainee in crayon at the very loose direction of a bunch of old farts leaving for an extended boozy lunch. So close textual analysis of the difference between "begins" and "commences" is a non-starter.

You're right that Law 19.8(i) doesn't require a team to have a receiver; it simply dictates where a receiver must stand if there is one (so the ref was wrong on that):

If a team uses a receiver, then that player, must be positioned at least 2m back from team mates in the lineout, and between the 5m and 15m lines, until the lineout begins....

The receiver can't move into the lineout before the ball is thrown in; because (19.8(d)):

When the ball is in touch, every player who approaches the line of touch is presumed to do so to form a lineout. Players who approach the line of touch must do so without delay...

If he has stopped for long enough to become the receiver, he cannot claim to have approached the line of touch "without delay".

It is permissible for the receiver and a lineout player to (ex)change places before the ball is thrown in:

Participating players in a lineout may change places before the ball is thrown.

but that doesn't get your receiver legally into the line as an extra player before the ball is thrown, because someone (from the lineout) has to take his place as receiver.

So the move as set out in your #20 is indeed impermissible If he joins the line before the ball is thrown, someone has to drop out.

Phil E
01-03-16, 14:03
I know I'm late on this, but here goes:


There's late and there's LATE!

I think we covered this in Post #2 two weeks ago!

L'irlandais
01-03-16, 17:03
...
It's a move I dislike as I feel it breaks several aspects of the laws as the extra man invariably joins well before the ball leaves the thrower's hands. And it feels like cheating, which is the part I find hardest to deal with. However, very few refs penalise it for the receiver joining- it far more often fails because the throw is crooked!And there's more. (As Jimmey Cricket might say.)
7.1 Playing the game :
Whatever a player does must be in accordance with the Laws of the Game.Now you know why (see posts #2 and 21 for details) the move is not allowed - 7.1 Prevents you from ever using it.

Crooked throw is karma for sure.

Dixie
01-03-16, 20:03
And there's more. (As Jimmey Cricket might say.)
7.1 Playing the game :
Whatever a player does must be in accordance with the Laws of the Game.Now you know why (see posts #2 and 21 for details) the move is not allowed - 7.1 Prevents you from ever using it. This is overstatement. If the timing is right (i.e. receiver starts moving after the ball leaves the thrower's hand) the move is perfectly legal. When the law first came in, we agonised over how to deal with it - and many of us got comfortable with the idea that if the receiver was lifted at the front we'd ping it whether or not we were certain he'd moved early, because he is unlikely to be able to cover 2m and get lifted faster than the throw can cover 6m. But if he came in at the back, we'd let it slide unless we clearly saw that he'd moved early.

FatherFlipper
08-03-16, 13:03
Slight return (sorry...): I had what I think was the opposite case last weekend - reds have penalty, kick to touch. Call four man line-out.

Ball in hookers hands, with FIVE men in the line-out. The receiver is in the line as well. As the hooker brings his arm, the receiver steps out of the line. Purple team have four in the line out the entire time - at the next play, Purple captain comes over and mentions the numbers issue - said that as the ball hadn't left the hookers hands, the line-out started at that point, and the line-out numbers were correct.

Red did this again at the next line-out (they utterly ballsed up both of them anyway). Have been trying to justify my decision on that basis, and the captain actually was happy with the explanation. I'm taking the "line-out starts as the ball leaves the hooker's hands" as the absolute starting point of the line-out, so that anything that happens before that (numbers, positioning etc) is moot - obviously there is a massive timing issue with some of the points (no way a player can leave the line-out AND get back into the defensive line between the cocking of the arm and the release of the ball), but in this case, there was a very distinct moment between the arm going back/player leaving the line-out, and the ball actually being released. Thoughts (more than prepared to be shot down in flames on this one).

Phil E
08-03-16, 15:03
Peep.

"Guys if you call 4, I expect to see 4 in the line.
And I need to know who is in the SH position guys?"


The reason the SH has to stand >=2m back is so that he is identifiable as the SH.