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Paule23
17-02-16, 13:02
This thread comes about for a recent thread over whether you can start the second half with a penalty due to an out of time offence.

Similar question but for issues before the game. I'm not necessarily taking about foul play (but feel free to comment) but what about teams delaying kick off, either through arriving late, or not listening to instructions to be ready?

As a referee can I sanction during the game, I.e start with a penalty to the opposition (who were in the field and ready in plenty of time) or do you have no direct sanction, have to sit and wait with no threat of action, and report through the relevant competition authority?

crossref
17-02-16, 13:02
I don't think there is any on-field action you can take, other than - in extremis - abandon the game. I don't think you can start the game with a PK.

If there is some incident that would be RC worthy on the field (a fight, or someone badly abusing ref) then again the position isn't clear : I'd imagine that you could legitimately demand that the culprit could not take to the field, and would report the incident, though perhaps not on the RC form. They would probably still start with 15 players.

That said it all depends on timing. If all the players are on the pitch about to kick off and you say 'are you ready blue' and the answer comers back - 'yes we are and it's about time you f**** cheating c***, ref' then you'd probably issue a RC and make them start with 14... I guess.

Taff
17-02-16, 14:02
... I'm not necessarily taking about foul play (but feel free to comment) but what about teams delaying kick off, either through arriving late, or not listening to instructions to be ready? As a referee can I sanction during the game, I.e start with a penalty to the opposition...
Delaying is a FK offence.

crossref
17-02-16, 14:02
wasting time is a FK offence, but before the game the clock hasn't started.

Paule23
17-02-16, 18:02
So is there anything I can reasonably do as a ref if a team is taking the p;:s?

i've had a coulple of games where I've been clear a couple of times how close we are to kick off, only to see a team bugger off the the changing rooms 5 minutes before kick off and not return until 10 or 15 minutes later. Incredibly frustrating!

JSAK
17-02-16, 19:02
I routinely subtract the time wasted from the clock. So if they screw around for 10 minutes, the first half is only 30 minutes. Unfortunately this penalizes both sides, but with time I hope the word spreads amongst the teams.

Drift
17-02-16, 22:02
Usually it's in the competition rules for the society. Over here if a team don't show up for kick off within 5-10 minutes (I think) you start with a PK against them.

L'irlandais
17-02-16, 22:02
law 7.1. A match is started by a kick-off.To start with a penalty is to ignore a law of the game.:sad:

Presumably ignoring the result of the coin toss too. 13.2 Who takes the kick-off and restart kick

Dickie E
17-02-16, 23:02
Usually it's in the competition rules for the society. Over here if a team don't show up for kick off within 5-10 minutes (I think) you start with a PK against them.

If its a genuine cock-up (bus broke down, heavy traffic, someone forgot the bag of jumpers, etc) then I will have some sympathy. But if it's a wilful delay to the start, then PK.

And in any case, a forfeit if 15 minutes expires.

Dickie E
17-02-16, 23:02
law 7.1. A match is started by a kick-off.To start with a penalty is to ignore a law of the game.:sad:

Presumably ignoring the result of the coin toss too. 13.2 Who takes the kick-off and restart kick

well, the restart after a knock on is a scrum. Unless one team or the other does something naughty in which case it might not be a scrum. Is that ignoring a law?

OB..
17-02-16, 23:02
law 7.1. A match is started by a kick-off.To start with a penalty is to ignore a law of the game.:sad:

Just like you do every time a scrum half picks the ball out of a ruck.

Pegleg
17-02-16, 23:02
I routinely subtract the time wasted from the clock. So if they screw around for 10 minutes, the first half is only 30 minutes. Unfortunately this penalizes both sides, but with time I hope the word spreads amongst the teams.

Can't agree with that. You are indeed penalising an innocent party. As stated the proscribed sanction for delay at a drop out is a FK. Nothing is said about a Kick off. Though if the kick is not correctly taken a scrum is awarded 13.1 (b). So you can start with out a successful kick.

Local rules can certainly apply. I would be tempted to FK an unreasonable delay. Unfortunately at the top level the delay is usually down to the TV people.

Anybody going to let a team kick off to a pitch empty of players if it is the receivign side that is delaying things?

I guess the key is game management.

L'irlandais
18-02-16, 00:02
Just like you do every time a scrum half picks the ball out of a ruck.
since presumably the ball cannot leave a ruck by it's own locomotion, it is understood that a player is involved in the action. Just the laws aren't written by legalists but by rugby men.
16.6 Successful end to a ruck
A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck, or when the ball is on or over the goal line.never in 35 years of rugby have I seen (or heard of) a match starting with a penalty. Much more novel idea than letting a scrum half handle the ball in a ruck.

FlipFlop
18-02-16, 10:02
There was a game at Richmond about 10 years ago, where the Ref started with one team in the changing rooms as they refused to come on on time. Team came out to see opposition lining up the conversion. No idea about the actual result etc. Any London guys have along enough memory for that one?

crossref
18-02-16, 11:02
There was a game at Richmond about 10 years ago, where the Ref started with one team in the changing rooms as they refused to come on on time. Team came out to see opposition lining up the conversion. No idea about the actual result etc. Any London guys have along enough memory for that one?

it strikes me as a myth -- surely no one would ever start a game with one team on the pitch. How is that going to unfold? What's the chance of that leading to a game of rugbhy ? How is the referee going to come out of that that looking like the good guy, and not the dick.

Dickie E
18-02-16, 12:02
particularly if the kick off hadn't gone 10

FlipFlop
18-02-16, 13:02
it strikes me as a myth -- surely no one would ever start a game with one team on the pitch. How is that going to unfold? What's the chance of that leading to a game of rugbhy ? How is the referee going to come out of that that looking like the good guy, and not the dick.

Fairly certain not a myth. I think i might even have been at the ground that day reffing another team, or there the next week or something. Certainly was in the papers. Perhaps in 2006-7 season or even 2007-8 season???

A lot of stink was raised, and appeals etc. But from memory Richmond refused to come out, despite several requests, so ref just started without them. Not sure if it all stood, or what happened to the ref.

OB..
18-02-16, 13:02
since presumably the ball cannot leave a ruck by it's own locomotion, it is understood that a player is involved in the action. Just the laws aren't written by legalists but by rugby men.
16.6 Successful end to a ruck
A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck, or when the ball is on or over the goal line.never in 35 years of rugby have I seen (or heard of) a match starting with a penalty. Much more novel idea than letting a scrum half handle the ball in a ruck.In over 60 years of involvement in rugby, I have never seen a game delayed to the point of needing a sanction..

The situation is not catered for in the laws. The law you quoted does not say that a match can ONLY be started by a kick-off. Since I take the view that a referee should interpret the laws sensibly, I do not place much faith on overly literal interpretations. I would expect a referee to try and manage the situation, initially by finding out what the problem was.

At a league match a couple of years ago, a car carrying several of the away team got stuck in a traffic jam. The referee was consulted and he got the captains together; they agreed to delay kick-off by 15 minutes, but no longer because it would get too dark to finish the match. The missing car arrived as the match started with the away team only having 13 players on the pitch.

crossref
18-02-16, 14:02
Fairly certain not a myth. I think i might even have been at the ground that day reffing another team, or there the next week or something. Certainly was in the papers. Perhaps in 2006-7 season or even 2007-8 season???

A lot of stink was raised, and appeals etc. But from memory Richmond refused to come out, despite several requests, so ref just started without them. Not sure if it all stood, or what happened to the ref.

I can't see how a referee would think he would come out that well.

You start the game -- (lucky that the team who were present were the ones due to kick off) and they score seven points.
Now what?
- Do you stop the watch?
- Do you award a FK against the absent team for time wasting? (and score and repeat)
I think you'd just look increasingly foolish

and then when the absent team came out, it's hard to imagine they would simply play the game, starting at 28-0 down (or whatever) so the match would be abandoned anyway.

I just can't see a referee really starting down that path.

However stranger things have happened!

talbazar
18-02-16, 14:02
Starting a game with a FK, I've seen it when I was playing:
A team refused to get out of the lockers on the 3rd knock on the door while we were waiting on the pitch.
FK to us...

I would personally start the game with a PK if a player is taking the p*$s.
Imagine that, just before kick off:
Ref: "Ready blue?"
Blue Cap: "Yes sir"
Ref: "Red?"
Red Cap: "What do you f**ing think you cheating t#&t?"

:deadhorse:

Shelflife
18-02-16, 14:02
Had a situation once, on a bitterly cold wet day , blue were on the pitch ready to go and red were very slow leaving the dressing room. Clear gamesmanship at play hoping that the other team would get cold etc. I wasnt sure what to do, knocked on the door to tell them to move on ,door closed again nearly in my face.

Eventually opened the door jammed it open with my foot and demanded that they take to the pitch now or forfeit the game on the basis of not taking to the pitch. They went out but its petty stuff like that that irks me.

Camquin
18-02-16, 16:02
I have never seen a game start with a penalty, but once the players have entered the playing arena they are under the control of the referee, so if a fight broke out you could issue a card and continue - though I think I might simply call the game off and head for the changing room if there is that much bad blood.

crossref
18-02-16, 18:02
I have never seen a game start with a penalty, but once the players have entered the playing arena they are under the control of the referee, so if a fight broke out you could issue a card and continue - though I think I might simply call the game off and head for the changing room if there is that much bad blood.

say this is on the pitch an hour before KO .... an actual card (?) and then they still start with 15?
if it is on the pitch 1 minute before KO .... an actual card and they start with 14 ?

(I am not sure what the answer is)

Pegleg
18-02-16, 19:02
I would suggest that if it is after the team sheets are issued the player does not start and 14 men if he's on the sheet. If he's not on the team sheet then Code of conduct and they keep their 15 players.

Of course if it happens before the team sheet is handed in then he will not be on it. I can't think why.

crossref
18-02-16, 19:02
the merit tables round us don't use team sheets....

OB..
18-02-16, 20:02
Had a situation once, on a bitterly cold wet day , blue were on the pitch ready to go and red were very slow leaving the dressing room. Clear gamesmanship at play hoping that the other team would get cold etc. I wasnt sure what to do, knocked on the door to tell them to move on ,door closed again nearly in my face.

Eventually opened the door jammed it open with my foot and demanded that they take to the pitch now or forfeit the game on the basis of not taking to the pitch. They went out but its petty stuff like that that irks me.Take blue back into the dressing room to warm up, then go and have a strong word with red. Set a new time and require both teams to come out when you knock.

I would also make sure the society knows about this ploy. Other referees may have had the same problem.

beckett50
18-02-16, 20:02
This is a common problem at the lower levels of the game and that I'm afraid you have to manage.

Very often there is no coach and you are dealing with the Captain in all matters. What it does do is ensure that any 50/50 decisions in the match don't go their way - human nature isn't it?:smile:

However, as to sanction? The match has yet to start because the game clock is not running - as you haven't signalled the start of the game - and you don't want to appear a c**k and lose the confidence/good will of either team before the kick-off.

I would suggest a quiet word with the skipper when they do appear - assuming you haven't tried the 'foot in the door' technique - telling how disappointed you are with his lack of courtesy and respect to you and the opposition by taking to the field late despite your notifications easier agreements as to the time that the kick-off would take place.

Pegleg
18-02-16, 22:02
the merit tables round us don't use team sheets....


Often a problem. We are compulsory for League and cup BUT they are often late and poorly filled in. You have no hope with nothing at all. It Will be "he's just here to watch".

menace
18-02-16, 23:02
This is a common problem at the lower levels of the game and that I'm afraid you have to manage.

Very often there is no coach and you are dealing with the Captain in all matters. What it does do is ensure that any 50/50 decisions in the match don't go their way - human nature isn't it?:smile:

However, as to sanction? The match has yet to start because the game clock is not running - as you haven't signalled the start of the game - and you don't want to appear a c**k and lose the confidence/good will of either team before the kick-off.

I would suggest a quiet word with the skipper when they do appear - assuming you haven't tried the 'foot in the door' technique - telling how disappointed you are with his lack of courtesy and respect to you and the opposition by taking to the field late despite your notifications easier agreements as to the time that the kick-off would take place.

The fact that they disrespected your authority probably already means you've lost their confidence and good will already? You probably can't do it any more harm and it might snap them back into showing some respect, especially if they want it to go 2 ways.

If they're late onto the pitch for no good reason, I've told them when I get to the middle I'll be blowing the whistle for time on (and told opposition I was doing it). Usually they get moving.

TigerCraig
18-02-16, 23:02
Our games have to start and finish on time, so if a team isnt on the field we have to start our watch. If they arent there within 10 minutes they forfeit.

From our rules:

12.2 Any club which is not prepared to commence a match within ten minutes of the official kick-off time shall forfeit the match without right of appeal. The referee shall note such occurrence on the result sheet.
12.3 Any time lost in commencing a match for whatever reason shall be deducted from the allocated time for that match.
12.4 Injury time will be added to the playing time in first grade matches only

SimonSmith
19-02-16, 01:02
I give my teams a 10, 5 and 2 shout. They have no excuse for not knowing where we are in the process, and when it's time to go.

I haven't had the team refusing to start - well, not for a long time - but I think if it did happen, I would make sure that they heard the warning that if they didn't start N-O-W, then I would be taking appropriate action.

I agree with Menace upthread - if you let it go, they win that encounter. And for all the "don't appear a dick" ideas, there's another team here; the more they wait, the less confidence they have in you. And they've done nothing wrong

Pegleg
19-02-16, 09:02
I give my teams a 10, 5 and 2 shout. They have no excuse for not knowing where we are in the process, and when it's time to go.

Good plan.




I haven't had the team refusing to start - well, not for a long time - but I think if it did happen, I would make sure that they heard the warning that if they didn't start N-O-W, then I would be taking appropriate action.

But that's the crux of the matter. What is "appropriate action"?




I agree with Menace upthread - if you let it go, they win that encounter. And for all the "don't appear a dick" ideas, there's another team here; the more they wait, the less confidence they have in you. And they've done nothing wrong

Total agreement. One side is compliant. They deserve "reward" the other is not they deserve some sort of sanction. The problem is what.

Perhaps a FK if (say) 5 mins late - DELAYING and the escalate to a PK at 10 mins. If still not out maybe YC the captain and this is an area that he should be in charge of? Less happy about the last part but could it be workable?

Balones
19-02-16, 09:02
But that's the crux of the matter. What is "appropriate action"?

"If you are not out in 1 minutes lads, I'm off home".:smile:

Blackberry
19-02-16, 10:02
As I get older I have discovered more fully the two alternative quiver of arrows at our disposal, and the first of them talking with teams / players as a fellow rugby man. "Come on guys, reds are waiting for you, they're out on time and ready to go" or "Come on guys this is not in the spirit of the game". The second quiver, and my god this is so powerful, is the consequences; a word with the blazers, the ref's society, the county. This is the rugby equivalent of Armageddon, with subsequent quiet words in peoples' ears being the verbal equivalent of a smack with a baseball bat.

In my early days at a school match in February I eventually sent the on time team back into the changing rooms (they loved this) and only called them out once the late team were fully ready on the pitch. And it took me ages to walk the monstrous, arduous 200 metre trek back to the clubhouse wherein I also checked studs again in case the journey had caused any burring. They then kindly waited in their changing room while I went for a wee.

Blackberry
19-02-16, 10:02
Sorry, went off a bit then, the point I am making is there might be (light and crowd permitting) a chance to avoid the problem by empathising with the errant team and arranging a (say) 15 minute delay to the start if the other team like the idea; it should restore equity of preparation and will be very hard for the errant team to be late TWICE without incurring the wrath of the County, Organising Group, their own club. You are calling their bluff, once could be claimed as accidental, but twice in 20 minutes???

SimonSmith
19-02-16, 13:02
Can you explain why we should be empathizing with the errant team? If they're deliberately sitting down and not coming out, they deserve no empathy.

L'irlandais
19-02-16, 14:02
:wales:This is not just happening at Grassroots levels (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/sixnations/11397786/Tunnel-standoff-in-Cardiff-pays-dividends-for-England.html) either.

Dr Jamie Barker, associate professor of applied performance psychology at the University of Staffordshire, said: "It was very sensible for England to refuse to go out first.
"For visiting teams the unfamiliarity of the surroundings and the interruption to their normal routine can have a disadvantageous effect. By refusing to go out first they threw the disruption back onto the Welsh players. It was clever psychology and it was fascinating to watch."

Blackberry
19-02-16, 17:02
Can you explain why we should be empathizing with the errant team? If they're deliberately sitting down and not coming out, they deserve no empathy.

Simon, try reading empathising with a touch of mischief, see if it makes more sense. I, the poor ref, have no weapon at my disposal to deal with this problem, other than quick thinking. By empathising-with-a-touch-of-mischief (Don't worry guys, I'll get the other side back and put that start time back") I am negating any advantage they may be hoping to gain while avoiding a conflict. Quite sensible. You then added in a bit about a team just refusing to come out, you find out what that reason is before reacting surely? If a team, as in the scenario you have created, is simply refusing to come out they will give you a reason, and you can ingenuously be helpful and offer to put the start back to suit them. The other team can then take their time to reorganise, come inside (see what I did with the school game) thereby negating any advantage-heaven-forbid-I-am-sure-that-was-not -what-was-intended.

Then, at your leisure tell the organising committee what happened, they can then pick up if it is a trend.

So, I guess I am saying, in the absence of clear directions to take, we manage the situation by, when possible putting the start time back so both sides have equity.

SimonSmith
19-02-16, 18:02
Might be the differences in the games we do.

I'll know well ahead of time if there are problems that will delay a kick off. Then I get mutual agreement on a new, later, kick off.

Absent any factors that haven't been brought to my attention, if a team refuses to come out, or to get on the field, it's willful (especially after what I outlined above). If the other team has gotten themselves ready to go, they deserve that. Going back in, calming down and then trying to get back 'up' again - that's tough. And they shouldn't have to do it.