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View Full Version : [Law] Player lies about age-U-19



Donk93953
28-02-16, 21:02
We find that a local USA, U-19 team has been playing with a player that is 20 years of age.
Player registered with USA Union and lied about his age.
We cannot deduce if the coaches knew.

I would think at the minimum any games he played for the team must be forfeited.
Coaches sanctioned...its their duty to make sure of this.
Team sanctioned.

Your thoughts?

Pinky
28-02-16, 21:02
Donk, think this is something for the competition authorities, there are probably some folks on here who have that experience.

crossref
28-02-16, 21:02
yes, the sanction will depend upon the regulations for the competition, and the Union regulations generally on age-group teams

Donk93953
28-02-16, 22:02
yes, the sanction will depend upon the regulations for the competition, and the Union regulations generally on age-group teams
That is the problem...there are no particular sanctions for this Union covering over-aged players in a match beyond it shouldn't be done.
And, I'm having a heck of a time finding USA guidelines for penalties to be assessed.

didds
28-02-16, 23:02
Just refuse to play said team again under any circumstances and let all and sundry know.

Didds

Pegleg
29-02-16, 00:02
Twitter / Facebook etc make sure that the authorities / parents and everyone knows what is going on.


BUT

Be VERY sure of your facts first. Play on the SAFETY angle. That together with the American love of litigation it should scare the hell out of them

Rushforth
29-02-16, 00:02
That is the problem...there are no particular sanctions for this Union covering over-aged players in a match beyond it shouldn't be done.
And, I'm having a heck of a time finding USA guidelines for penalties to be assessed.

Perhaps all of the coaches and players involved in this should be whipped, or jailed, or fined $10000 to make sure this never happens again. Or and/and instead of or/or.

Somebody cheated. This happens in rugby more often than is desirable. Somebody wants the team punished. This also happens more often in rugby than is desirable, but holding the whole team accountable within a game is at least proportionate.

Camquin
29-02-16, 01:02
The RFU regulations give sanctions for a U18s playing Adult rugby without permission.
I am not sure it give any guidance for playing a adult player in U18 - as I am not sure anyone thinks it might happen.

But just for information:

Mid-level breach
A player under the age of 18 plays with adults without required permission. No injury
A player under the age of 18 trains with adults without required permission. Injury occurs

Sanction
Suspension of coach/person responsible for team selection for 3 months;
Team suspended from playing for 4 weeks;
Points deducted from club 1st XV equating to 2 wins (possibly suspended);
Club reprimanded

SimonSmith
29-02-16, 01:02
There's a lot of stuff not covered specifically, and much of that is due to the Balkanization of USA R. The discipline office will recommend handling under the more general " bringing the game into disrepute" regulation and imposing a swinging sanction.

i just suspended a guy for 2 years for playing under an assumed identity while suspended

didds
29-02-16, 08:02
Won't he just get another assumed name?

��

Didds

Phil E
29-02-16, 10:02
How do you know he lied about his age?

DocY
29-02-16, 11:02
I'd have thought a fine for the club and bans for the coach and player in question if it happened here (though as didds points out, enforcing the latter may be difficult).
It might get a lot more serious if someone's injured though, particularly in America, and no insurance would pay out.

crossref
29-02-16, 11:02
It might get a lot more serious if someone's injured though, particularly in America, and no insurance would pay out.

we could speculate for hours about what insurance policies are in place for all sides -- and who knows --- but generally speaking insurance policies for injury DO pay out to the injured for injuries caused by someone's negligence/deceit etc - -- that's often the point of having policy. But the catch is that if there is a deceitful / negligent person or club involved, the insurance company might well seek to recover the payout from them.

Dixie
29-02-16, 12:02
Won't he just get another assumed name?


How do you know he lied about his age?

And these are the key questions - though as mentioned, they are more for the discipline authorities than the ref. In the Land Of The Free, where no-one will let you do anything without showing your driving licence, it seems reasonable to insist on the club exercising due diligence on such matters, resulting in a sanction aimed at least as much at the club as at the player himself.

L'irlandais
29-02-16, 14:02
http://usarugby.org/eligibility
Not sure the regulations imagined somebody would lie, so specific mention may be unlikely.
(Naive, perhaps.)

At the bottom of the *"Rugby participants rooster" it reads ;
As the Club Representative, I verify that I have checked the eligibility of my players and that each of them are in compliance with the Regulations as set forth by my local governing organization and USA Rugby. I understand that if I am found to be in violation of those regulations my team and I will be subject to strict disciplinary sanctions that may include fines, suspension or forfeit of matches.it is the club's problem, ignorance is no defense in the face of law.

* http://cdn1.usarugby.org/documentation/medical/rugbyroster.pdf

SimonSmith
29-02-16, 14:02
Won't he just get another assumed name?

😉

Didds

I have let the clubs in our area with whom he would consider playing that should that happen, Very Bad Things will happen to them. The team that he played for under the assumed name is now banned from post season championship play - no club wants to get that around their necks around here.

#callmeRoyBean

crossref
29-02-16, 14:02
rugby is a small world, isn't it ? Most games I referee there seem to be a at least a few players or coaches in the two teams who know each other. I would think that a player would have to move quite a long way away to get away with an assumed name for very long. Especially a player with a reputation.

Pegleg
29-02-16, 14:02
rugby is a small world, isn't it ?

I'd guess the States are a little different due to the vast distances involved. Here it would be harder to hid but people do manage it. We once playerd a SH who, unbeknown to us had been sent off on the Saturday (immediate ban until hearing in those days). It turned out the ref who sent him off was appointed to our game on the Tuesday night. The SH "used the boot" to free a ball at a ruck. The ref called him over to speak to him and he recognised him. A second sending off (no cards in those days) and we had to go infront of the DC to explain our part in playing a banned player. Thankfully our pleas of innocence were accepted and we got off with a warning.

The SH got 4 weeks for the first sending off, eight for the second and another eight for playing whilst banned.

Donk93953
29-02-16, 17:02
How do you know he lied about his age?
Player was injured during the game.
When the medical staff got to him they asked his birthday....
He replied, " 12/21/1995"

As to the local union's coming down hard on this transgression.

The ref's have taken an, "its not our problem" point of view.
The union admin, has been very strict in their dealing with this..."Don't do it again."

The union admin will not identify team, nor player.

That type of enforcement will make sure it never happens again.
(Yes, Im being facetious)

SimonSmith
29-02-16, 17:02
It isn't a referee issue, it's the local Union.

I only get involved because I happen to be the Discipline Chair. If I were President of the Ref Soc only, I'd punt that a mile down the road for someone else to handle.

My guy got caught because a referee at a tournament also happened to be a coach at his college team when he got suspended and got suspicious. Conversation with the referee handing out the RC turned up the fact that the name was not his. Lengthy investigation showed that out of a roster of 11, at least 4 were playing under assumed identities

crossref
29-02-16, 17:02
In England each level of rugby (club, CB, RFU) has a child safeguarding officer. If there was an 20 year old playing in a U18 game (ie a youth game) then that would certainly be a child safeguarding concern and you could complain there, and it would be taken pretty seriously.

But in England I don't think the remit of child safeguarding would include a 20 year old playing in an U19 game -- in our eyes they are all adults. Perhaps in the USA 21 is the key age and you could take that sort of route?

But to be honest : to me a 20 year old playing in the U19s doesn't sound like a safety issue, it sounds to me more a technical issue - equivalent to playing an unregistered player. Perhaps the union just doesn't think it's as big a deal as you do. What level game was it? In England at formal league levels playing unregistered players is quite a big deal and costs clubs league points and fines, but at merit table levels, in practice, no one cares much, as at the end of the day a game of rugby has happened (viz many/most merit table games have no team sheets)

or maybe I'm being too casual.

SimonSmith
29-02-16, 18:02
There's a longish backstory to the structure of USA Rugby, and transparency of organization.

The shortish version is: There isn't a single unified field theory. My referee society currently supports the following bodies:
1. Chesapeake Conference
2. Cardinals Conference
3. Capital GU
4. Mason Dixon
5. Capital GU Women
6. NSCRO
7. Rugby Virginia (Youth)

All those bodies have their own charters, competition rules, and disciplinary 'standards' despite USA Rugby's supposed adherence to World Rugby processes and standards. I handle discipline for 3 and 5.

It's balkanization ad absurdum. SBROs (the Youth Rugby arms) are notoriously shit at discipline, because it's run by coaches and asking them to enforce a sanction much beyond a smack on the wrist is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas (or Thanksgiving).

It is, by any stretch of the imagination, a complete ****ing shit show

Donk93953
29-02-16, 18:02
"What level game was it?"

It was a high school, secondary school level.
Under USA Rugby rules a player cannot be over 19 years of age to play high school rugby...

"Players are eligible if they have not reached their 19th birthday by the September 1st that occurs at
the start of the school year containing the competitive season, including the summer following that
school year."

That is pretty much required for all high school competitions in the USA in any sport.

crossref
29-02-16, 18:02
There's a longish backstory to the structure of USA Rugby, and transparency of organization.

The shortish version is: There isn't a single unified field theory. My referee society currently supports the following bodies:
1. Chesapeake Conference
2. Cardinals Conference
3. Capital GU
4. Mason Dixon
5. Capital GU Women
6. NSCRO
7. Rugby Virginia (Youth)

All those bodies have their own charters, competition rules, and disciplinary 'standards' despite USA Rugby's supposed adherence to World Rugby processes and standards. I handle discipline for 3 and 5.

It's balkanization ad absurdum. SBROs (the Youth Rugby arms) are notoriously shit at discipline, because it's run by coaches and asking them to enforce a sanction much beyond a smack on the wrist is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas (or Thanksgiving).

It is, by any stretch of the imagination, a complete ****ing shit show

it may not be that different for us -- in terms of competition rules I have reffed in
RFU Leagues
Middlesex merit table
Surrey reserve leagues
Zoo Shield
HMMT Merit Tables
Sussex Merit table

these all have different regulations and competition sanctions. In general wherever a competition organiser has the power to alter a regulation they will use that power and alter it - So for instance the rules on subs and man-off - no two comps have the same
We also have university games and schools games, different again.

For an issue like playing children in the wrong age group, the RFU Regs would reign supreme, competition organisers can't change those BUT there again the regs are different for schools and clubs (schools have much more flexibility).

OB..
29-02-16, 19:02
In England at formal league levels playing unregistered players is quite a big deal and costs clubs league points and fines, but at merit table levels, in practice, no one cares much, as at the end of the day a game of rugby has happened (viz many/most merit table games have no team sheets)Gloucester 3 does not require registered players, nor do our Reserve Leagues. Do any Merit Tables require registration?

crossref
29-02-16, 19:02
Gloucester 3 does not require registered players, nor do our Reserve Leagues. Do any Merit Tables require registration?

I don't know -

Here's the Middlesex Merit Table


4. ELIGIBILTY OF PLAYERS
4.1 Teams may only select members of their Club.

4.2 A team may only select players for the Semi-Final and Final matches who have already played for that team in the competition. In exceptional circumstances the Organiser in his absolute discretion may waive this rule on a player-by-player basis, but the Organiser must be asked in writing and permission granted at least 24 hours before the match is played. Breach of this rule may lead to forfeiture of the match

So it seems yes - but team sheets aren't used.

Pinky
29-02-16, 23:02
There's a lot of stuff not covered specifically, and much of that is due to the Balkanization of USA R. The discipline office will recommend handling under the more general " bringing the game into disrepute" regulation and imposing a swinging sanction.

i just suspended a guy for 2 years for playing under an assumed identity while suspended

Simon, is a swinging sanction something good, or something rather pendulous? :biggrin:

SimonSmith
01-03-16, 01:03
Effing autocorrect rejected 'swingeing'

although it did fit nicely with my Roy Bean hashtag!