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ctrainor
20-03-16, 00:03
Had this today.
Green v red. 5 minutes to go red 8 points down trying for at least bonus point
Red attacking but Green win ruck on own 22 and scrum Half kicks ball downfield with wind behind him.
Ball bounces towards dead ball line and I and most of the players and touch judges are 50m away.
All I see is fullback pick up the ball and start running. As I get to about the 22 he says it was dead ref, I say play on and he kicks it to touch.
After the game sensible chat about the incident.
I told you it was dead ref FB says. Yes mate but I wasn't sure so why didn't you leave it and prove it?
Fair point ref!
Happy days

menace
20-03-16, 13:03
Great comeback. That'll learn him.

ChrisR
20-03-16, 14:03
If he volunteered that the ball had gone dead and you're 50m away why not believe him?

RobLev
20-03-16, 15:03
If he volunteered that the ball had gone dead and you're 50m away why not believe him?

I'm guessing here, but because believing him means giving his team the option of a scrum put-in on the oppo's 22m?

ChrisR
23-03-16, 12:03
Great comeback. That'll learn him.

Yes, it "learned him". It learned him that the referee who can't keep up doesn't trust in the integrity of the players. Well done.

ChrisR
23-03-16, 12:03
I'm guessing here, but because believing him means giving his team the option of a scrum put-in on the oppo's 22m?

The advantage gained has nothing to do with it. If you expect integrity from a person and act accordingly you are far more likely to get it.

SimonSmith
23-03-16, 13:03
I think that this is where we tactfully deploy the "bless your heart" phrase and say that you have far more faith in your fellow man than I.

I have seen home TJs ignore their own player place a foot a foot outside the touchline in a footrace to the goal line and then get pissed when I brought it back for the L/out. They steal as much territory as they can when a kick goes to touch.

The chances of me making a decision based on player input? Slim to none.

And "can't keep up" is a bit harsh. I'm not sure I could race a kick to the goal line.

crossref
23-03-16, 13:03
I agree, a ref has to be fit enough to keep up with the game, but he doesn't have to be as fast as the fastest winger, that's not reasonable expectation ....... else he'd probably be a winger !

RobLev
24-03-16, 02:03
Yes, it "learned him". It learned him that the referee who can't keep up doesn't trust in the integrity of the players. Well done.

"Keep up" - the ball has just been kicked 80yds (+ the depth of the in-goal), and the Green chasers haven't even got to the Red 22m before the Red FB runs the ball back that far; do you *really* expect the ref to have got close enough to see where the ball came to a stop? Are all USAian refs as quick as Usain Bolt?

RobLev
24-03-16, 02:03
The advantage gained has nothing to do with it. If you expect integrity from a person and act accordingly you are far more likely to get it.

I'm sorry, but do you allow packs to self-referee scrums?

Dickie E
24-03-16, 02:03
All I see is fullback pick up the ball and start running.

why was he running if he thought it was dead? To get to the scrum quicker? :chin:

crossref
24-03-16, 09:03
why was he running if he thought it was dead? To get to the scrum quicker? :chin:

I imagined that he was running to try and take a very quick 22m dropout (not unusual) but it wasn't really on, and he changed his mind.

SimonSmith
24-03-16, 13:03
I'm sorry, but do you allow packs to self-referee scrums?

Wellll, if I have FR problems, one of my initial conversation tactics can be "you sort this out or I will. My way involves penalties and cards. Your call"

Phil E
24-03-16, 13:03
Quote Originally Posted by RobLev View Post
I'm sorry, but do you allow packs to self-referee scrums?


Wellll, if I have FR problems, one of my initial conversation tactics can be "you sort this out or I will. My way involves penalties and cards. Your call"

I am with Simon on this, but its an experience thing. You have to know when you can get away with it and when you can't.
I had an issue the other day, both front rows at fault. Words to the effect of "You six know what the problem is and how to fix it, if you don't we will go uncontested as the scrums aren't safe, your choice".

ChrisR
24-03-16, 14:03
Agree that "can't keep up" not appropriate but I surmise that when the ball is heading for goal most of us slow up expecting the defender to ground it and claim the 22DO. If you see the player ground it would you call "play on" as you were too far away to be sure that it was in goal and not still in the FOP?

And how would you feel if the player waited by the ball as it sits on the dead ball line and makes you run the extra 50m to confirm it and then trudge back to the kickers 22 to set the scrum?

The crux of the matter is simple. When you are unsighted should you trust in the integrity of the players or not. I'm familiar with Simon's cheating TJs but if you can't judge for yourself (can't see clearly) and don't have evidence (clear footprint in the paint) to the contrary what choice do you have? Listen to the howls from the spectators?

I'll start with trusting in the integrity of the players.

OB..
24-03-16, 17:03
I'll start with trusting in the integrity of the players.... and sometimes you will have been misled. It's a faute d mieux approach. Basically the referee has to use his judgement, based on whatever clues he can find.

ctrainor
24-03-16, 20:03
The full back was running because he knew time was running out and the wanted to get the ball up to the oppositions 22 for a scrum to potentially get within 7 for a bonus point, not because he was going for a quick drop out.
I always base my refereeing decisions based on "if I haven't seen it I can't give it" so play the whistle which effectively he did as I had shouted play on.
As for trusting players never forget when we step onto the pitch there are 31 people out there and only one not trying to bend the laws to his advantage!

Phil E
24-03-16, 21:03
I don't think it was dead.....I think it was just resting!

menace
24-03-16, 22:03
Though to someone else's credit ( crossref?), I prefer 'zombie' - cause it's not quite dead yet!

RobLev
25-03-16, 01:03
Wellll, if I have FR problems, one of my initial conversation tactics can be "you sort this out or I will. My way involves penalties and cards. Your call"

Point taken, but that wasn't quite what I meant.

4eyesbetter
25-03-16, 12:03
Though to someone else's credit ( crossref?), I prefer 'zombie' - cause it's not quite dead yet!

Dixie. Perhaps we should have some annual celebration on the 22nd of August? (http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?15030-LATs-at-grassroots/page7)

crossref
25-03-16, 12:03
22 August, the day of the Zombie. Like it