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Ex-Flanker
04-04-16, 15:04
Hi Guys,

I'm a new ref and I just reffed my first game this weekend. I had a question about something that happened during the game.

Purple 10 has the ball in open play. He is tackled and lifted by Blue 7. Before Blue 7 has a chance to put him down or do anything else, players from both teams join the tackle and form a maul. Purple 10 is lifted off his feet throughout the maul by a combination of players from both teams.

I called maul and as it came to a standstill quickly and the ball wasn't available, I awarded a scrum to blue. Purple 10 was complaining about being lifted in the maul but my view was that he was lifted in the tackle and the maul formed around the tackle.

Was my decision correct? Could I have managed the situation differently? Note that this was a very low level game, with several players new to rugby.

crossref
04-04-16, 15:04
If any situation is actually dangerous you should blow whistle..
If it was no one's fault, so no one to PK, then restart with a scrum to the team with possession.

didds
04-04-16, 16:04
its not "wrong" to lift someone in a tackle.

But it is the tackelr's responsibility to ensure that the lifted player is set to ground in a safe manner.

The alarm bells thus only really start to rung if the tackled player ends up whilst lifted with his head below his hips - and your description sounds as if that wasn't anywhere near occuring.

Crossref is also spot on here.

didds

DocY
04-04-16, 16:04
Firstly, well done! Hope you enjoyed it!

As crossref says, only blow if it's actually dangerous play.

It sounds like you made the right decision - the dangerous bit is the landing. If he didn't land, it probably wasn't dangerous.

The only thing I'd add re: managing is that I'd have said something along the lines of "no, you came down safely so it's fine"

ctrainor
04-04-16, 17:04
As described I'd probably blow up immediately on safety grounds and award scrum to team in possession.
The tackled player would appear to have no control over what he can do but is likely to try to keep hold of the ball.
The game is to be played by players on their feet.
I would simply blow and say guys he's caught in the air, it looks dangerous, I've stopped the play, scrum attack.
Nobody can question your judgment.

Ex-Flanker
04-04-16, 17:04
Thanks for the feedback everyone. Although it didn't seem a particularly dangerous situation (maul not really moving, everyone just standing there), it would probably have been better to blow up immediately on safety grounds as Purple 10 was still being lifted (if the maul had collapsed, he potentially could have been in a bad position) and given Purple the put-in at the scrum.

Pegleg
04-04-16, 18:04
If any situation is actually dangerous you should blow whistle..
If it was no one's fault, so no one to PK, then restart with a scrum to the team with possession.


As described I'd probably blow up immediately on safety grounds and award scrum to team in possession.
.
I would simply blow and say guys he's caught in the air, it looks dangerous, I've stopped the play, scrum attack.
Nobody can question your judgment.

The law book disagrees with you both.

20.4 (d) Scrum after any other stoppage. After any other stoppage or irregularity not covered by
Law, the team that was moving forward before the stoppage throws in the ball. If neither
team was moving forward, the attacking team throws in the ball.

The Attaking side is not the side in possession!

Definitions:
Attacking team: The opponents of the defending team in whose half of the ground play is taking place.

crossref
04-04-16, 20:04
Pegleg - - this is why the whistle is blown

6.A.8 The referee’s whistle
(a)
The referee must carry a whistle and blow the whistle to indicate the beginning and end of each half of the match.
(b)
The referee has the power to blow the whistle and stop play at any time.
(c)
The referee must blow the whistle to indicate a score, or a touch down.
(d)
The referee must blow the whistle to stop play because of an infringement or for an offence of foul play. When the referee cautions or sends off the offender, the referee must whistle a second time when the penalty kick or penalty try is awarded.
(e)
The referee must blow the whistle when the ball has gone out of play, or when it has become unplayable, or when a penalty is awarded.
(f)
The referee must blow the whistle when it would be dangerous to let play continue or when it is probable that a player has been seriously injured

Unfortunately the Law book doesn't give the restart -- but I think risk of injury is pretty close to injury and


6.A.9 The referee and injury
If the referee stops play because a player has been injured, and there has been no infringement and the ball has not been made dead, play restarts with a scrum. The team last in possession throws in the ball. If neither team was in possession, the attacking team throws in the ball.

So I'd use that rather than 'any other srtoppage'

OB..
04-04-16, 20:04
20.4 (d) Scrum after any other stoppage. Was this "any other stoppage". Unless play was stopped on safety grounds, it sounds more like an unsuccessful end to a maul
it came to a standstill quickly and the ball wasn't available That would be scrum Blue since Purple took it in.

crossref
04-04-16, 20:04
The only thing I'd add re: managing is that I'd have said something along the lines of "no, you came down safely so it's fine"

THIS , I think is really good advice. One of the things I have learned is that when something borderline happens a very quick concise shout of WHY you haven't blown the whistle really helps in building players' confidence - something like 'saw it, nothing in it' or "saw it, came down safely" whatever, is a good tactic. The players may not agree, but the fact you saw it and considered it and made a decision for a reason builds confidence. It's much more effective than remaining silent.

Pegleg
04-04-16, 22:04
Was this "any other stoppage". Unless play was stopped on safety grounds, it sounds more like an unsuccessful end to a maul That would be scrum Blue since Purple took it in.

The Scenario being discussed covers the game being stopped because it is a dangerous situation and not an unsuccessful end to the maul. As highlighted in Crossrefs post:



Pegleg - - this is why the whistle is blown

6.A.8 The referee’s whistle
(f)
The referee must blow the whistle when it would be dangerous to let play continue or when it is probable that a player has been seriously injured

Unfortunately the Law book doesn't give the restart -- but I think risk of injury is pretty close to injury and

6.A.9 The referee and injury
If the referee stops play because a player has been injured, and there has been no infringement and the ball has not been made dead, play restarts with a scrum. The team last in possession throws in the ball. If neither team was in possession, the attacking team throws in the ball.

So I'd use that rather than 'any other stoppage'

The law says any other stoppage not covered in law. You have given confirmation that the stoppage is as you put in bold with the signigicant part being the bit underlined (since there has not been serious injury) and the law does not cover the restart. So I stand by my position.

OB..
05-04-16, 00:04
I called maul and as it came to a standstill quickly and the ball wasn't available, I awarded a scrum to blue.


The Scenario being discussed covers the game being stopped because it is a dangerous situation and not an unsuccessful end to the maul. So we are not discussing the situation described in the OP? Or are you saying the game should have been stopped because of danger to the player? Too hypothetical for me to bother about.

Pegleg
05-04-16, 08:04
if you read thethread you will see this situation was Identified as one that was dangerouys / potentially dangerous by posters. So that is the situation we were discussing. That the player was lifted (As described by the OP) was the issue that we moved into immmediately. It was explained to the OP that a player lifted , as he described, was in a dangerpous position.

If it is "Too hypothetical for "me" to bother about." you, of course are under no obligation to discuss it.

crossref
05-04-16, 08:04
The mildly interesting Law issue that has come up in the thread is : if you blow whistle under 6.A.8.F because of risk of injury , then what is the correct restart.
I say, treat it the same as an actual injury
Pegleg says it's a stoppage for some other reason

didds
05-04-16, 10:04
.
The game is to be played by players on their feet.


So you can't jump into the air to catch a ball?

Or jump in a lineout?

Or be lifted to receive a kick off/restart?

WADR this is just conflating one part of one or two specific laws into "everything". Again.

I don;t expect anyone witll agree with me though!

didds

ChrisR
05-04-16, 11:04
Welcome to RR, Ex-Flanker.

In your first post you've managed to uncover all the different elements of the site. Well done.

You will get:

Good advice. Then more good advice that disagrees with the first good advice.

Some good advice that's not pertinent as the poster didn't quite get your original post.

Someone who'll say the lost interest and someone who'll tell them to stop reading.

The thread will get hijacked so that several debates will occur in parallel.

All in all, if this site makes you think and check your understanding of Law then it's well worth your time. I hope.

As for your OP? You got it spot on.

Pegleg
05-04-16, 12:04
The mildly interesting Law issue that has come up in the thread is : if you blow whistle under 6.A.8.F because of risk of injury , then what is the correct restart.
I say, treat it the same as an actual injury
Pegleg says it's a stoppage for some other reason

I think you can go either way. As long as you justify your position. Both our positions have merit. We disagree, that is fine.

ChrisR
05-04-16, 12:04
So you can't jump into the air to catch a ball?

Or jump in a lineout?

Or be lifted to receive a kick off/restart?

WADR this is just conflating one part of one or two specific laws into "everything". Again.

I don;t expect anyone witll agree with me though!

didds

I totally agree with you!

It's not even a specific law. It's from the definitions setion of law 14 - Ball on the ground - no tackle.

The Game is to be played by players who are on their feet. A player must not make the ball unplayable by falling down. Unplayable means that the ball is not immediately available to either team so that play may continue.

If you removed the first sentence the rest of it makes just as much sense.

didds
05-04-16, 13:04
thanks Marauder - semantics maybe but I'd say it IS part of a specific law ie Law 14.

Which clearly doesn't include the case in the OP (or the examples I gave)

didds

OB..
05-04-16, 13:04
if you read thethread you will see this situation was [Identified as] claimed to be one that was dangerouys / potentially dangerous by posters. So therefore of little interest to the OP, who decided it wasn't. There is an enormous range of possible incidents and an enormous range of valid responses. I don't see what point you are pursuing.