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didds
06-04-16, 08:04
Just seen this


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETTX0Brx6eg&feature=youtu.be

I'm not really sure what this sets out to do - the only definite differences I see here are

- tackler must now play the ball from "his side" only
- the breakdown (they didn't use the word ruck though!) exists once just one supporter arrives over the ball.

It also hints at no jackling at a tackle. But I do note the only bit that clip mentions here is no hands past the ball and no hands at the breakdown. It doesn't actually ever address whether an oppo can jackle for the ball at the tackle or not - and what happens if a supporter subsequently arrives after the jackler has hands on.

??

didds

Ian_Cook
06-04-16, 11:04
Just seen this

<video snipped>

I'm not really sure what this sets out to do - the only definite differences I see here are

- tackler must now play the ball from "his side" only
- the breakdown (they didn't use the word ruck though!) exists once just one supporter arrives over the ball.

It also hints at no jackling at a tackle. But I do note the only bit that clip mentions here is no hands past the ball and no hands at the breakdown. It doesn't actually ever address whether an oppo can jackle for the ball at the tackle or not - and what happens if a supporter subsequently arrives after the jackler has hands on.

??

didds

From the IRB website (the bit in red added by me)

Law 16 Breakdown
1. A breakdown commences when at least one player from the attacking team (that is a team-mate of the tackled player) is on their feet and over the ball which is on the ground (tackled player, tackler plus one more). At this point the offside line is created (new definition).
2. Only players acting as a half-back can play the ball with their hands (lift the ball out of the breakdown). They must be on their feet and on-side. They must subsequently run, pass or kick (new 16.2 Joining a breakdown). A half-back is any one player who is not part of the breakdown and behind the hindmost foot who is in a position to play the ball emerging from the breakdown. The hindmost foot will be the offside line for half-back players.
3. Offside line at a ruck is the back foot plus one metre. If the back foot of the hindmost player is on or behind the goal line, the offside line for the defending team is the goal line. To be policed by assistant referees (new 16.5 (a) offside at the breakdown).
4. All arriving players must come from an onside position (see 3 above) and can enter their side of the breakdown mid-point (no gate). Players must remain on their feet (new 16.5 (c)).
5. No players at breakdown can have hands on the ground beyond the ball, hold onto or lean on or have knees on players on the ground. Players off their feet sealing the ball will be penalised. Arriving players encouraged to drive over or past the ball (existing 16.4).
6. Players must not handle the ball in a breakdown once the breakdown is formed. Once the breakdown contest is formed the player must release the ball (new 16.4 other breakdown offences).
7. The breakdown ends when the ball emerges or the ball is picked up (new 16.6 successful end to a breakdown).

So it would seem that when the ball carrier is tackled

1. The tackler can no longer play the ball from any direction, he has to play from a 180 arc on his side of the ball
2. Any team-mate of the tackler can still jackle for the ball provided he enters through the gate and gets hands on before the breakdown is formed by the arrival of a team-mate of the tackled player.

IMO, this is a poorly thought out Law. It will make getting a turnover it so difficult that teams won't even bother trying. Instead, expect to see trench warfare break out all over the rugby fields of New Zealand as defenders stay away from the breakdown an line-up along the offside line.

didds
06-04-16, 11:04
Thanks Ian.


1) so if a jackler manages to get hands on post-tackle but THEN a team mate of the tackled player arrives over the ball the jackler MUST release?

2) How does an onside player at a ruck join the ruck given to do so will require them to be firstly offisde in order to get to the ruck?

3) The video doesn't seem to support this hind foot + 1m ?


didds

FlipFlop
06-04-16, 11:04
Seems strange - a "breakdown" is tackled + tackler + 1 more.
What happens if we have a tackle and no tackler (i.e. tackler doesn't go to ground? - of is this also changed?)

How do you enter the breakdown from an onside position, when that is back 1m?

OB..
06-04-16, 12:04
Seems strange - a "breakdown" is tackled + tackler + 1 more.
What happens if we have a tackle and no tackler (i.e. tackler doesn't go to ground? - of is this also changed?)Good question.


How do you enter the breakdown from an onside position, when that is back 1m?If you are 1m back from the breakdown, you can cross that gap for the sole purpose of joining the breakdown.

BigClothesSir
06-04-16, 12:04
Seems strange - a "breakdown" is tackled + tackler + 1 more.
What happens if we have a tackle and no tackler (i.e. tackler doesn't go to ground? - of is this also changed?)

How do you enter the breakdown from an onside position, when that is back 1m?

I understood it to mean you had to be 1m+ behind the back foot when the breakdown/ruck formed. Players in front of this 1m line cannot join the breakdown/ruck.

didds
06-04-16, 13:04
another question from anpther place -

... does this scrumhalf only plays the ball thing stop pick and go?

Does it mean the rear player cannot disengage and pick and go?

and with any supporters being at least a metre behind (and not eg "just" on the offside line) it may make this tactic less attractive

didds

didds
06-04-16, 13:04
<ignore>..........

Dixie
06-04-16, 13:04
Ian's explanation here in red ...
From the IRB website (the bit in red added by me)

Law 16 Breakdown
1. A breakdown commences when at least one player from the attacking team (that is a team-mate of the tackled player) is on their feet and over the ball which is on the ground (tackled player, tackler plus one more). At this point the offside line is created (new definition).

Ian, without wishing to suggest you may have taken a liberty, is this absolutely 100% or a reasonable interpretation from the misleading use of "attacking"?

RobLev
06-04-16, 14:04
I understood it to mean you had to be 1m+ behind the back foot when the breakdown/ruck formed. Players in front of this 1m line cannot join the breakdown/ruck.

I don't think this can be right. Imagine a last-but-one-man White #14 taking a Garryowen and being tackled by a chaser; last man White #15 arrives to prevent the chasers picking the ball up and forms the breakdown. That's the lot for White; everyone else was offside when the breakdown commenced, and therefore, on this interpretation can't join the breakdown.

I'm guessing it means you have to retreat 1m behind the HMF before turning around and joining the breakdown.

HOWEVER: What happens if W7 aims to join the breakdown at its midpoint but gets caught out by the other side getting a shove on? Does he have to retreat 1m behind HMF again, or is it enough to retreat behind midpoint and join direct from there?

Further again: Having initially retreated behind HMF+1, can he join the breakdown behind midpoint by going around the opposition's side of the breakdown - ie navigating 270 degrees around it? And if not, why not?

Ian_Cook
06-04-16, 14:04
Ian's explanation here in red ...

Ian, without wishing to suggest you may have taken a liberty, is this absolutely 100% or a reasonable interpretation from the misleading use of "attacking"?

Its a reasonable interpretation from the misleading use of "attacking", because if not, then the only alternative would be that that only a player in his opponents half of the field can form a breakdown?

Think about this for a moment; a defending ball carrier is tackled as he brings the ball out from his 22m. His team mates cannot form a breakdown?

didds
06-04-16, 14:04
Ian's explanation here in red ...

Ian, without wishing to suggest you may have taken a liberty, is this absolutely 100% or a reasonable interpretation from the misleading use of "attacking"?


I thought it was an accepted copncept that the team with the ball in hand is the attacking team, even if this means they are in their own goal area?

didds

crossref
06-04-16, 15:04
In theory ----


Defending team: The team in whose half of the ground play is taking place; their opponents are the attacking team.
Attacking team: The opponents of the defending team in whose half of the ground play is taking place.
http://laws.worldrugby.org/?domain=2

but in practice WR and others often ignore this and use attacking team to mean, variously,
- the team in possesssion
- the tackled player's team
- the team going forward
- the team throwing into the line out

Personally I think this term has lost its defined meaning and can only be understood in context.

OB..
06-04-16, 15:04
I see problems with the concept of the "breakdown midpoint". The tackler must be behind this to play the ball, and it also determines where players may join the breakdown, yet it is not defined in the text posted by Ian. In play the precise location may be unclear or even non-existent (if the tackler has got up).

They burnt their fingers previously when trying to impose an offside line at the tackle and this looks a reasonable attempt to provide something similar, but I think it needs more work yet.

Ian_Cook
06-04-16, 20:04
I see problems with the concept of the "breakdown midpoint". The tackler must be behind this to play the ball, and it also determines where players may join the breakdown, yet it is not defined in the text posted by Ian. In play the precise location may be unclear or even non-existent (if the tackler has got up).

They burnt their fingers previously when trying to impose an offside line at the tackle and this looks a reasonable attempt to provide something similar, but I think it needs more work yet.

The text I posted seems to be notes on the new Laws, with phrases like "new 16.5 (a) offside at the breakdown", and "new 16.4 other breakdown offences", but in typical WR fashion they have published these notes in their website, without publishing the actual new Laws they refer to.

*** sigh ***

Pegleg
07-04-16, 09:04
Deleted having seen point already covered by other posters.

didds
07-04-16, 09:04
if that approach is taken then any ball carrying team in their own half can never ever ever ever ever create a breakdown, and thus remove the use of hands.

I would suggest that is entirely nonsensical.

didds

crossref
07-04-16, 09:04
I am confused - in the new world has a breakdown replaced a ruck ?

Or are breakdowns and rucks different animals, with different conditions?

Ian_Cook
07-04-16, 09:04
if that approach is taken then any ball carrying team in their own half can never ever ever ever ever create a breakdown, and thus remove the use of hands.

I would suggest that is entirely nonsensical.

didds

I agree, which is why I think they are using the term "attacking team" to refer to the team in possession of the ball when the tackle is made.

Effectively, a team-mate of the tackled player needs to get there quickly to form a breakdown, so that he can stop the opposing team from using their hands when they get there.

I see the possible scenarios as going something like this.

Blue 13 is tackled by Gold 15 (always assuming that Gold 15 releases immdiatly)

1. If Gold 15 gets to his feet first, he can jackle for the ball but only from his own side of the tackle. He may continue to do so even if Blue 7 arrives.

2. If Blue 7 gets to the tackle before Gold 15 gets hands on, breakdown formed, no hands

3. If Blue 7 gets to the tackle before Gold 7 (arriving player) gets hands on, breakdown formed, no hands

4. If Gold 7 gets to the tackle first, he can jackle for the ball, and may continue to do so even if Blue 7 arrives.

crossref
07-04-16, 09:04
I agree, which is why I think they are using the term "attacking team" to refer to the team in possession of the ball when the tackle is made.

I agree, and in some circumstances that could be a very confusing usage : eg the player in possession at the time of the tackle could be a full back, 3m from his own tryline, having just chased and gathered a long kick, looking up to see no support and three oncoming oppo.

he certainly won't feel like he is 'attacking' !

Ian_Cook
07-04-16, 10:04
I am confused - in the new world has a breakdown replaced a ruck ?

Or are breakdowns and rucks different animals, with different conditions?

They are referring to Law 16 as the "Breakdown Law ". A Ruck will be known as a "Breakdown".

Currently, a ruck requires two players (one from each team) to be on their the feet over the ball
The Breakdown will only require one player, which will be a team-mate of the ball carrier/tackled player

To facilitate this they are limiting the rights of the tackler.

Currently, the tackler can get to his feet and play the ball from any direction
Now, the tackler will only be allowed to play the ball from his own side of that tackle, not from directly behind the ball but from anywhere along a 180 arc ion his own side.

Effectively, he still has more latitude than "Other Players", arriving players or Tackle Assists, but less latitude than he used to have.

I think this Law change is recognising that the team in possession is trying to retain the ball, while the opposing team is trying to steal it.

► To retain the ball, the team in possession tries to get their player to the tackle first to form a breakdown, which will stop the opposition's fetcher from getting hands on

► To steal the ball, the team not in possession tries to get their fetcher to the tackle first to get hands on the ball before the opposition can form a breakdown

► Quickest player wins the day.

crossref
07-04-16, 10:04
so as more players join in, it still remains a breakdown --- it doesn't become a ruck

FlipFlop
07-04-16, 10:04
Blue 13 is tackled by Gold 15 (always assuming that Gold 15 releases immdiatly)

1. If Gold 15 gets to his feet first, he can jackle for the ball but only from his own side of the tackle. He may continue to do so even if Blue 7 arrives.

2. If Blue 7 gets to the tackle before Gold 15 gets hands on, breakdown formed, no hands

3. If Blue 7 gets to the tackle before Gold 7 (arriving player) gets hands on, breakdown formed, no hands

4. If Gold 7 gets to the tackle first, he can jackle for the ball, and may continue to do so even if Blue 7 arrives.

But this means (different Scenario)
1. Red #14 who has made a line break, is tackled by Blue #14.
2. Red #15 arrives, and seeing no defence is between him and the tryline, picks up the ball,
3. Red #15 is penalised for hands in the breakdown

Or have I mis-understood. Can Red #15 pick the ball?

didds
07-04-16, 10:04
yes he can.

watch the video

didds

Ian_Cook
07-04-16, 10:04
so as more players join in, it still remains a breakdown --- it doesn't become a ruck


That is a question I cannot answer for sure for the reason I stated in post #15, however I get the impression that the term "Breakdown" replaces the term "Ruck". Most of the Laws remain the same.

Ian_Cook
07-04-16, 10:04
But this means (different Scenario)
1. Red #14 who has made a line break, is tackled by Blue #14.
2. Red #15 arrives, and seeing no defence is between him and the tryline, picks up the ball,
3. Red #15 is penalised for hands in the breakdown

Or have I mis-understood. Can Red #15 pick the ball?

Yes, he's first to the tackle, so he has ball playing rights, but AIUI his presence alone denies Blue ball playing rights

ChrisR
07-04-16, 11:04
I think the term "breakdown" is an interim phase between tackle and ruck. Once players are engaged over the ball then a ruck has formed and ruck law applies.

The invention of "breakdown" ends the confusion of uncontested rucks by creating offside lines.

ChrisR
07-04-16, 12:04
For the purpose of clarity in forum discussions perhaps we could use a different term than "attacking".

I suggest Team in Possession (TiP) is self explanatory.

4eyesbetter
07-04-16, 12:04
You could say "offense" and "defense"...

*ducks for cover*

crossref
07-04-16, 12:04
I think the term "breakdown" is an interim phase between tackle and ruck. Once players are engaged over the ball then a ruck has formed and ruck law applies.

so that's a pretty big difference between the way Ian interprets.

(I am not saying who is right! I haven't a clue)

crossref
07-04-16, 12:04
For the purpose of clarity in forum discussions perhaps we could use a different term than "attacking".

I suggest Team in Possession (TiP) is self explanatory.

except that
- WR themselves use the phrase, so we can escape it
- TiP isn't great for describing the situation just after a tackle when, presumably, the tackled player has released the ball and at that second neither team is properly in possession. Or indeed if a jackaller has arrived and got a hand to it, he is in possession.

ChrisR
07-04-16, 12:04
except that
- WR themselves use the phrase, so we can escape it
- TiP isn't great for describing the situation just after a tackle when, presumably, the tackled player has released the ball and at that second neither team is properly in possession. Or indeed if a jackaller has arrived and got a hand to it, he is in possession.

You are quite correct, CR. It doesn't. Got any suggestions?

Perhaps: "The Team in Possession Immediately Prior to the Tackle and/or Prior to the Opponent Jackler Getting Both Hands on the Ball as One Hand Won't be Enough for Some People" (TiPPttTa/oPttOJGBHotBaOHWbEfSP)

Or we could just interpret "attacking" and "defending" in the context of the discussion. Yeah, we could!

crossref
07-04-16, 13:04
Or we could just interpret "attacking" and "defending" in the context of the discussion. Yeah, we could!

I think we have to.
I also think that WR must do the same, and remove the definitions from the Law Book

Ian_Cook
07-04-16, 13:04
so that's a pretty big difference between the way Ian interprets.

(I am not saying who is right! I haven't a clue)

I am surmising solely from the various phrases used in the WR website pages about the Law trials

Law 16 - Breakdown
1. A breakdown commences when at least one player from the attacking team is on their feet and over the ball which is on the ground (Tackled player, tackler + 1). At this point the offside line is created. (New definition)

New 16.2 Joining a breakdown
(currently 16.2 is Joining a ruck)

New 16.5 (a) Offside at the breakdown
New 16.5 (c)
(currently 16.2 is Offside at the ruck)

Existing 16.4
New 16.4 Other breakdown offences
(currently 16.4 is Other ruck offences)

New 16.6 Successful end to a breakdown
(currently 16.4 is Successful end to a ruck)

Unfortunately, as is typical of WR, they appear to have published the notes to these new Laws, but not the actual rewritten Laws themselves... go figure!! (maybe they're in one of your secret memos crossref?)

If I were to guess, I would say they have changed the name of this phase of play from "Ruck" to "Breakdown", and that "ruck" and "rucking" will be solely used to describe what players do at a breakdown. If I have guessed correctly, then the new definition will read something like this.

DEFINITIONS
A breakdown is a phase of play when at least one player from the team in possession (in addition to the tackled player and the tackler) is on their feet and over the ball which is on the ground. Open play has ended.

Players are rucking when they are in a breakdown and using their feet to try to win or keep possession of the ball, without being guilty of foul play.

OB..
07-04-16, 16:04
A quick check through the law book shows that where the term "attacking" is used, the existing definitions make sense ie in or near to the in-goal, or to resolve a problem when it is not clear which team is in possession.

The item Ian posted breaks this pattern, since a breakdown can follow a tackle anywhere on the field. Perhaps there should be a special definition that applies in this law only eg
"In Law 16, the attacking team is the one in possession when the breakdown started."

crossref
07-04-16, 17:04
the place where i most noticed the terms used wrongly is in the guidance about teams that stand off in the line out and don't form a maul -- that guidance used 'attacking' to mean 'team throwing in, who catch and attempt to form a maul'

Although I noticed at the time that some unions corrected it in the versions they cascaded.