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rugbyslave
10-04-16, 08:04
The ball is passed from the 10 to 12, 12 is not looking, ball bounces off 12's head and the 10 receives the ball back, I guess no knock-on but is 10 not off-side. The ball only hits the 12 on the head, no body else involved and does not bounce off the ground. Referee says "No Knock-on off the head".

Camquin
10-04-16, 08:04
If the pass was flat and 10 slowed after giving the pass then sprints to catch the ball, I suppose 10 could have got behind 12 and so be on side at the moment of impact.

Rushforth
10-04-16, 08:04
http://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=12

DEFINITION: KNOCK-ON

A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.

If a player in tackling an opponent makes contact with the ball and the ball goes forward from the ball carrier’s hands, that is a knock-on.

If a player rips the ball or deliberately knocks the ball from an opponent's hands and the ball goes forward from the ball carrier's hands, that is not a knock-on.

Good call.

Edit: except I didn't read the OP correctly.

Taff
10-04-16, 09:04
The ball is passed from the 10 to 12, 12 is not looking, ball bounces off 12's head and the 10 receives the ball back, I guess no knock-on but is 10 not off-side.
As Camquin says, I suppose the key question is was No 10 in front of No 12 or not?

If he was in front, then I think I would call it accidental offside (scrum) rather than deliberate offside which is a PK offence.

If No 10 was level with or behind No 12 - then play on.

L'irlandais
10-04-16, 09:04
My feeling is it was the correct call.
Law 12 excludes this.
EXCEPTION
Bounce forward. If the ball is not thrown forward but it hits a player or the ground and bounces forward, this is not a throw forward.So it is neither a knock-on (no hands) nor a throw forward. Play on!

The Fat
10-04-16, 10:04
My feeling is it was the correct call.
Law 12 excludes this.
EXCEPTION
Bounce forward. If the ball is not thrown forward but it hits a player or the ground and bounces forward, this is not a throw forward.So it is neither a knock-on (no hands) nor a throw forward. Play on!

I think you are missing the point of the OP.
The 10 throws a legal pass to his 12, but the ball hits the 12 in the head and basically rebounds forward to the 10 again.
We all agree that 12 has not knocked the ball on (so referee's call is correct in that regard), but from the description, the 10 is still in front of the 12.
I would go with Taff and award a scrum to the opposition for accidental offside, unless the ball bounced off the 12's head and 10 made a deliberate (not reflex) action to recover the ball in which case it would then be a PK for offside.

ChrisR
10-04-16, 11:04
I think I'd be laughing too hard to whistle anything!

RobLev
10-04-16, 12:04
As Camquin says, I suppose the key question is was No 10 in front of No 12 or not?

If he was in front, then I think I would call it accidental offside (scrum) rather than deliberate offside which is a PK offence.

If No 10 was level with or behind No 12 - then play on.

He might have been accidentally offside, but it couldn't be accidental offside (defined in Law 11.6(a)):

When an offside player cannot avoid being touched by the ball or by a team-mate carrying it, the player is accidentally offside.

He deliberately caught it - therefore could have avoided being touched by it.

didds
10-04-16, 13:04
My feeling is it was the correct call.
Law 12 excludes this.
EXCEPTION
Bounce forward. If the ball is not thrown forward but it hits a player or the ground and bounces forward, this is not a throw forward.So it is neither a knock-on (no hands) nor a throw forward. Play on!

except that if the 10 was in front of a team mate that last played the ball etc...

didds

Rushforth
10-04-16, 16:04
He might have been accidentally offside, but it couldn't be accidental offside (defined in Law 11.6(a)):

When an offside player cannot avoid being touched by the ball or by a team-mate carrying it, the player is accidentally offside.

He deliberately caught it - therefore could have avoided being touched by it.

There is deliberate and deliberate. We've all seen the more obvious case of a player (often new) in front of a potential catcher (who has clearly knocked on) automatically collect the ball, which prevents advantage from being taken. Generally we would penalise that (perhaps not in a friendly, but in that case we might not want the scrum either).

From the scenario as presented (and being awake now), it seems as if the referee decided "play on" based on the fact their hadn't been a knock-on to get advantage from, and called "no knock on" to clarify. Perhaps not correct in law, but not a bad decision, at the level where the 12 is facing the other way and the 10 aims he pass at the back of his head....

talbazar
11-04-16, 04:04
He might have been accidentally offside, but it couldn't be accidental offside (defined in Law 11.6(a)):

When an offside player cannot avoid being touched by the ball or by a team-mate carrying it, the player is accidentally offside.

He deliberately caught it - therefore could have avoided being touched by it.

Maybe, maybe not... Catching (or any purposely way of "playing" the ball) is not enough to "judge" if the player may or may not have been able to avoid the ball...

rugbyslave
11-04-16, 09:04
In general play a player is offside if the player is in front of a team-mate who is carrying the ball, or in front of a team-mate who last played the ball.

Definition:Played:The ball is played when it is touched by a player.

Accidental offside scrum non-offending team !!

RobLev
11-04-16, 17:04
In general play a player is offside if the player is in front of a team-mate who is carrying the ball, or in front of a team-mate who last played the ball.

Definition:Played:The ball is played when it is touched by a player.

Accidental offside scrum non-offending team !!

Why "accidental offside", given the quoted definition of that term?

Taff
11-04-16, 22:04
The time difference between the ball leaving the hands, bouncing off his teammates head and bouncing back into No 10s hands must be tiny. I take your point Roblev, but I just think No 10 won't have the time to react, and that a PK for offside would be a bit harsh.

OB..
12-04-16, 13:04
The time difference between the ball leaving the hands, bouncing off his teammates head and bouncing back into No 10s hands must be tiny. I take your point Roblev, but I just think No 10 won't have the time to react, and that a PK for offside would be a bit harsh.If you know the ball has come from a team-mate behind you, your rugby instinct should be to try and avoid it. If it still hits you and bounces off, the opponents might have the chance to play advantage.

If you do cannot realistically be expected to know if the ball came from a team-mate or an opponent, I can see the case for accidental offside.

RobLev
12-04-16, 22:04
The time difference between the ball leaving the hands, bouncing off his teammates head and bouncing back into No 10s hands must be tiny. I take your point Roblev, but I just think No 10 won't have the time to react, and that a PK for offside would be a bit harsh.

If that's what's happened - if you can credibly argue that #10 couldn't avoid the ball - then accidental offside. But if he reacted fast deliberately to catch it - that is not accidental offside.

talbazar
13-04-16, 14:04
If that's what's happened - if you can credibly argue that #10 couldn't avoid the ball - then accidental offside. But if he reacted fast deliberately to catch it - that is not accidental offside.

So if we play together and you're slightly in front of me, retreating. I kick and miss it badly (as always coz I can't kick) so that the ball travels straight to your face:
Option 1: out of reflex you catch the ball --> ref blows PK for offside.
Option 2: too slow to do anything you take the ball on your nose --> ref blows scrum for accidental offside.
:pepper:
That's how it should happen according to you?
Did I get it right?
:hap:
PS: this is meant to be a funny way of putting the "absolute rule" you describe above.
All I'm saying is: let's use a bit of common sense and empathy and see what actually has happened...
:biggrin:

Cheers,
Pierre.

RobLev
13-04-16, 16:04
So if we play together and you're slightly in front of me, retreating. I kick and miss it badly (as always coz I can't kick) so that the ball travels straight to your face:
Option 1: out of reflex you catch the ball --> ref blows PK for offside.
Option 2: too slow to do anything you take the ball on your nose --> ref blows scrum for accidental offside.
:pepper:
That's how it should happen according to you?
Did I get it right?
:hap:
PS: this is meant to be a funny way of putting the "absolute rule" you describe above.
All I'm saying is: let's use a bit of common sense and empathy and see what actually has happened...
:biggrin:

Cheers,
Pierre.

No. Could I avoid being touched by the ball?

Phil E
13-04-16, 16:04
No. Could I avoid being touched by the ball?

You could avoid being touched by the ball, by NOT being in an offside position :chin:

RobLev
13-04-16, 16:04
You could avoid being touched by the ball, by NOT being in an offside position :chin:

I'm assuming that the ball has been kicked to Talbazar over my head - a fair assumption given his disclaimer of any skill in returning fire - which is why I'm retreating. But were you correct, then Law 11.6(a) could never apply.