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Dickie E
22-04-16, 00:04
http://www.rugbyonslaught.com/search?updated-max=2016-04-20T19:19:00%2B01:00&max-results=1&start=4&by-date=false

Thoughts on this?

For me ref called "use it" too early but, once he has done so, what are obligations on the team in possession? Does getting a shove on count as using it?

Law says:
Law 20.10
When a team has the ball at the #8’s feet but the scrum is not moving forward, the referee will call
“Use it!” The team must use the ball immediately (turnover scrum).

It doesn't say SH or #8 must pick the ball up.

Paule23
22-04-16, 07:04
My interpretation is if the referee has said "use it" the option of getting a shove on has gone. The team either use the ball through a number 8 pick up or SH using it, or there is a scrum turnover.

Phil E
22-04-16, 08:04
It was stationary for quite a few seconds and the ref told them to use it three times, the last time saying use it or lose it. They can't complain if they then lose it by doing nothing.

Yes they got a shove on, but it was hardly convincing, they maybe moved a foot at most.

I assume the referee was following a directive?

Rich_NL
22-04-16, 08:04
I'd think most people implicitly understand "use it or lose it" to mean "end the phase, back to open play", as with rucks and mauls. Not "keep driving".

The first call was *very* early, though; the ball is still under the number 4's belly!

Lee Lifeson-Peart
22-04-16, 09:04
The first call was *very* early, though; the ball is still under the number 4's belly!

Will Skelton?

Rich_NL
22-04-16, 09:04
Oops, #19 - the loosehead lock, in any case.

DocY
22-04-16, 10:04
I'm not sure if it's a WR directive, but certainly something I've been advised on: "use it" means "get it out of the scrum", supposedly to stop teams trying to milk penalties at the top level, or improve safety at lower levels.

Definitely made the first call too early, but realised what he'd done. "Use it or lose it" is pretty unambiguous.

merge
22-04-16, 13:04
When the referee says "Use it 8" the ball is still under the second row, it's not until the final "Use it or lose it" that the ball is at the No 8s feet and he can unbind and pick it up. Would the referee be better talking to the scrum half who could legally pick up the ball, though probably under pressure?

menace
22-04-16, 14:04
http://www.rugbyonslaught.com/search?updated-max=2016-04-20T19:19:00%2B01:00&max-results=1&start=4&by-date=false

Thoughts on this?

For me ref called "use it" too early but, once he has done so, what are obligations on the team in possession? Does getting a shove on count as using it?

Law says:
Law 20.10
When a team has the ball at the #8’s feet but the scrum is not moving forward, the referee will call
“Use it!” The team must use the ball immediately (turnover scrum).

It doesn't say SH or #8 must pick the ball up.

Simple. Don't be dick and call 'use it' too early when the ball hasn't gone past the 2nd row.

Dickie E
22-04-16, 14:04
I'm not sure if it's a WR directive, but certainly something I've been advised on: "use it" means "get it out of the scrum", supposedly to stop teams trying to milk penalties at the top level, or improve safety at lower levels.



But isn't it reasonable that getting a shove on after the "use it" meets both the letter and the intent of the law?

crossref
22-04-16, 14:04
I thought "use it" means "phew, the scrum is still pretty much recognisable as a scrum, and the ball has reached somewhere near the back of it, so now FFS please get the ball away before something goes wrong, the scrum disintegrates and I am forced into yet another reset or, worse, forced pick a random PK out the hat, because I am buggered if I know what's happening"

DocY
22-04-16, 15:04
But isn't it reasonable that getting a shove on after the "use it" meets both the letter and the intent of the law?

I agree that it meets the letter of the law, but I'm not sure about the intent. I can believe the intent really is to get the ball out, though wouldn't be surprised if it was just to stop timewasting.

On a logistical point, though, getting a shove on immediately is not easy - certainly harder than picking the ball up. I think you'd really be running the risk of the ref deciding you've not used it immediately enough if you go for the shove.

OB..
22-04-16, 15:04
I note that 20.10 (d) is in the 2016 law book, but not the 2015 one. I thought we were using the 2015 one for the current season?

thepercy
22-04-16, 16:04
I note that 20.10 (d) is in the 2016 law book, but not the 2015 one. I thought we were using the 2015 one for the current season?

No not in the southern or western hemispheres. But yes, you (Europe) are still using outdated laws.

TheBFG
22-04-16, 17:04
I note that 20.10 (d) is in the 2016 law book, but not the 2015 one. I thought we were using the 2015 one for the current season?

Goes "live" on 1st July for NH

Camquin
22-04-16, 18:04
I cannot find a definition for "use".
As ever the lack of a good editor shows

The Fat
22-04-16, 19:04
I note that 20.10 (d) is in the 2016 law book, but not the 2015 one. I thought we were using the 2015 one for the current season?

Even though we are using the 2016 law book, what the ref did in the OP doesn't resemble 20.10(d) as his initial call was way too early.


20.10(d)
When a team has the ball at the number 8’s feet, and is trying to move forward but is not succeeding in doing so, the referee will call “use-it” once the ball has been at the number 8’s feet for a reasonable amount of time (3-5 seconds). The team must then use the ball immediately.



What he was trying to do was manage the situation to comply with this (below) which is a summary of WR Law changes for 2016. It is how the changes were communicated to referees in Australia and I suspect is probably similar to how they were communicated to the SANZAR refs. Note the significant differences open to interpretation between this and the actual wording in 20.10(d).

Law 20.10
When a team has the ball at the #8’s feet but the scrum is not moving forward, the referee will call
“Use it!” The team must use the ball immediately (turnover scrum).


In the OP, the ref does not follow either of these as his initial call is too early. His problem then is that he cannot take the words back and is basically forced to make the Brumbies use it. That means either the #8 or SH pick the ball up, not have the pack get another shove on.

What he should have done at the start of that scrum was to,
(a) get the scrum stable before the feed or
(b FK against Brumbies (dark blue) for early push

Chris_j
22-04-16, 22:04
20.10 (d) When a team has the ball at the number 8’s feet, and is trying to move forward but is not succeeding in doing so, the referee will call “use-it” once the ball has been at the number 8’s feet for a reasonable amount of time (3-5 seconds). The team must then use the ball immediately.

So if it is at 8's feet and they are clearly not trying to move forward we should let them stay there for 5 minutes until time is up?

Do these law writers do it deliberately?

I hope we get clear guidance in the NH before the start of next season.

Dickie E
22-04-16, 23:04
I agree that it meets the letter of the law, but I'm not sure about the intent. I can believe the intent really is to get the ball out, though wouldn't be surprised if it was just to stop timewasting.



The latter. It was introduced to stop a team winding down the clock at a ruck then brought across to apply to scrums too. The law makers don't care what a team does with the ball as long as they are not cynically time wasting.

thepercy
23-04-16, 00:04
20.10 (d) When a team has the ball at the number 8’s feet, and is trying to move forward but is not succeeding in doing so, the referee will call “use-it” once the ball has been at the number 8’s feet for a reasonable amount of time (3-5 seconds). The team must then use the ball immediately.

So if it is at 8's feet and they are clearly not trying to move forward we should let them stay there for 5 minutes until time is up?

Do these law writers do it deliberately?

I hope we get clear guidance in the NH before the start of next season.

From USARugby GMG

If the scrum becomes stationary (for 3-5 seconds), and the ball is at the hindmost player’s feet. The referee should instruct the team to “USE IT”. They should play the ball immediately, otherwise award a turnover scrum.

didds
23-04-16, 00:04
My interpretation is if the referee has said "use it" the option of getting a shove on has gone. The team either use the ball through a number 8 pick up or SH using it, or there is a scrum turnover.


I'd agree - excpet he made it the #8's SPECIFIC responsibility to use it when the ball wasn;t even at the #8s reach let alone feet.


Very very poor.


The call was incredibly early too by any measure!


didds

Ian_Cook
23-04-16, 01:04
But isn't it reasonable that getting a shove on after the "use it" meets both the letter and the intent of the law?

Nope. No more than getting a shove on after the team has been told to "use it" in a maul.

You've had your chance to get your scrum goings forward, and failed. That means you are not clearly dominant in that scrum, and we don't have all day for a pushing contest. The longer it goes on, the more chance there is for a collapse and/or a scrum penalty.

IMO, "use it" in the scrum is one of the best scrum initiatives WR has come up with, and the trial that keeps the non-ball winning SH from going past the opposing flanker is close behind it.

menace
23-04-16, 01:04
IMO, "use it" in the scrum is one of the best scrum initiatives WR has come up with, and the trial that keeps the non-ball winning SH from going past the opposing flanker is close behind it.

I dont think anyonr would disagree with you ian. Pity the ref in this case didnt read the memo.

JSAK
23-04-16, 19:04
As several others have pointed out, the problem stemmed from the ref calling "use it" far to early. What would have been the downside had he just said "my bad" and reset the scrum?