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DocY
14-06-16, 17:06
Here's the situation:

Reds are winning close to full time and blue knock on (or commit some other infringement leading to a scrum) with the ball in Red's position and advantage being played.

With my scrum half's hat on, this is pretty much game over. Have the forwards keep hold of the ball in the usual 'wait as long as possible, pick up, take a step, form a new ruck' way. If the ball's knocked on it's a red scrum, if it isn't it's going to be FT.

It's not something I've really come across as a referee (not having a big clock helps with that), but would anyone manage the advantage differently in this situation than in the middle of the game?

If this happened with plenty of time to spare I'd probably say not going anywhere, no advantage and take the scrum, but I'm conflicted about this happening right at the end.

Sure, eating up time is a tactical advantage, but I don't think it's really in the spirit of the law.

crossref
14-06-16, 17:06
8.1 Advantage in practice
(a) The referee is sole judge of whether or not a team has gained an advantage. The referee has wide discretion when making decisions.
(b) Advantage can be either territorial or tactical.
(c) Territorial advantage means a gain in ground.
(d) Tactical advantage means freedom for the non-offending team to play the ball as they wish.

so if what they wish is secure, calm possession that they can safely recycle a few times to use up them, then once they have that possession secured, I'd say you can call advantage over.

Christy
14-06-16, 18:06
Hi peoples.
Reds are winning & realistically im assuming looking for the game to end.
If we talking with in dying seconds of game.
Would it be wrong to say ,,lads we are in last play..
( thus assuming reds will kick ball off park ,,hoping an aussie water boy doesnt flick it back on ,,sorry )

I have often finished 1st & 2nd half with those words.
Last play.
Regardless , of weather i am playing advantage for knock on / similar..

I suppose if there maybe 40 secs left./ or more
And if playing advantage.
Its possibly something for reds to worry about & not you the ref.

Im sure if they want the scrum , they will fumble their own ball , to force their scrum with their put in.
With view on keeping ball in posetion from scrum , for scrum half to kick off
( for an aussie water boy to catch & run in & score a try )
Sorry its my sense of humour in relation to aussie water boy.
Its a good question & im sure will be an interesting thread.

thepercy
14-06-16, 18:06
Same situation, hooter goes, "Sir, we don't want advantage" Peep, game over?

Staffs_Ref
14-06-16, 21:06
You don't say quite how close to full time it is, DocY, but I can't imagine that I would let a scrum advantage run on overly long (as opposed to a penalty advantage), as that would not be consistent with the way I would have been applying it throughout the match. If we were a matter of seconds away from time, then I would let it run those extra few seconds, but otherwise I think I would blow up for the scrum. Red are going to have the put in anyway and are therefore likely to win it. If we were that close to time prior to the scrum being called, then time is likely to have elapsed by the time the scrum is over and the scrum half can boot the ball into touch and end the game.

DocY
15-06-16, 08:06
Thanks all,

I was deliberately vague about exactly how long was left. I suppose my question could have been "how much time used up constitutes advantage?".

I see Staffs' argument, but I'd be reluctant to have a scrum without a good reason. Though that very much depends on how long's left.

I suppose to gain an advantage they would have had to hold on to the ball for as long as a scrum would have taken had I blown immediately. Though that given them the option of playing for 10 seconds and deliberately knocking-on, eking out a bit more time.

Obviously this isn't going to be an issue if you've called 'last play', but competent players can often keep the ball alive for a few minutes at a time, so calling last play isn't always an option.

DocY
15-06-16, 08:06
Same situation, hooter goes, "Sir, we don't want advantage" Peep, game over?

That's an interesting point.

I wouldn't allow that - if the infringement happened before the hooter and they didn't gain advantage (and I'd consider kicking it out to be advantage) we'd have the scrum. Not sure how I'd manage it if they did ask for the scrum, mind.

Ian_Cook
15-06-16, 09:06
The Laws of the Game apply from kick off to no-side, and Law 8 is not exempt from this, so I see no reason to manage that Law any differently at the end of the match than at any other time.

If pick and go (under advantage) is what they are doing in the 27th minute of the game, then however you managed that is exactly how you should manage it at 79m 50s on the clock.

FlipFlop
15-06-16, 09:06
Given my games don't have a big clock (or at least one that is anyway close to accurate).

Knock on close to the end of time (such that this is a potential play). Peep. Knock on. Peeep peep peep. Game over.

Nothing to be gained over those few seconds. End the game.

DocY
15-06-16, 09:06
The Laws of the Game apply from kick off to no-side, and Law 8 is not exempt from this, so I see no reason to manage that Law any differently at the end of the match than at any other time.

If pick and go (under advantage) is what they are doing in the 27th minute of the game, then however you managed that is exactly how you should manage it at 79m 50s on the clock.

No, but what constitutes advantage can vary a lot throughout the game. Picking and going with no intention of gaining ground would not, to me, be advantageous in the 27th minute (and if they did this, I'd probably conclude that they wanted the scrum and just had a funny way of asking for it), but could be in the 80th.

DocY
15-06-16, 09:06
Given my games don't have a big clock (or at least one that is anyway close to accurate).

Knock on close to the end of time (such that this is a potential play). Peep. Knock on. Peeep peep peep. Game over.

Nothing to be gained over those few seconds. End the game.

Quite so - it's not something I anticipate having to deal with accurately any time soon (I was actually thinking about the end of the Wales-England WC game when writing it), but I thought it could be an interesting discussion.

Decorily
15-06-16, 09:06
[QUOTE=Christy;317403]Hi peoples.

Would it be wrong to say ,,lads we are in last play..


I have often finished 1st & 2nd half with those words.
Last play.

Christy, I would strongly advise against the use of the words "last play", I personally use the phrase 'Time is expired' in this situation.

The reason I feel 'last play' is inappropriate is because we do not know that it is in fact last play!

If for instance you award a penalty after calling 'last play' the game can continue for any period of time and could result in a score many phases later that changes the result that would have been expected when last play was called.

It can lead to confusion and whispers of unfairness!!

Pegleg
15-06-16, 09:06
You have the watch. So time is your call. Also, you are the sole judge of what constitutes advantage. If they have the ball and can run down the clock that is a tactical advantage for me. If they successfully set up one ruck / maul and recycle the ball, they have had all the advantage they would normally get from a scum (unless forced well backwards) so call it over. They can then decide how to progress from there. But it's your call (sorry if that does not really help but that's why we are there.). I guess the best thing to do is ask your self the question "Would I be happy with this much advantage if I was the side playing advantage?"

Pegleg
15-06-16, 09:06
Given my games don't have a big clock (or at least one that is anyway close to accurate).

Knock on close to the end of time (such that this is a potential play). Peep. Knock on. Peeep peep peep. Game over.

Nothing to be gained over those few seconds. End the game.

Are you sure? Position (score and territorially) may change that assessment. Time for a scrum 6 or 7 meters out in a 12-10 game. Scrum against the head and its drop goal and suddenly it's a 12-13 win for the other side. Nothing to be gained? I'd agree if it was 25-7 or such.

Pegleg
15-06-16, 09:06
The Laws of the Game apply from kick off to no-side, and Law 8 is not exempt from this, so I see no reason to manage that Law any differently at the end of the match than at any other time.

If pick and go (under advantage) is what they are doing in the 27th minute of the game, then however you managed that is exactly how you should manage it at 79m 50s on the clock.

Spot on.

Pegleg
15-06-16, 09:06
Hi peoples.

Would it be wrong to say ,,lads we are in last play..


I have often finished 1st & 2nd half with those words.
Last play.

Christy, I would strongly advise against the use of the words "last play", I personally use the phrase 'Time is expired' in this situation.

The reason I feel 'last play' is inappropriate is because we do not know that it is in fact last play!

If for instance you award a penalty after calling 'last play' the game can continue for any period of time and could result in a score many phases later that changes the result that would have been expected when last play was called.

It can lead to confusion and whispers of unfairness!!

Indeed. How many of us have been caught out with this one? "last play ......Unless blah blah blah". Carefull with choice of wording. You can dig a hole for yourself. "We have time to take the line out / scrum". Care too with: "There's time for the line out AFTER the Penalty" as well. Stick to "5 seconds left Red Weslh) 10." !) asks "is ther time for the line out after the kick to touch sir?" Ref " 4 Seconds now red. YOUR call There may not be time for a line out!"

Camquin
15-06-16, 18:06
I thought there was a trial that there was always time for the line out following a penalty.

crossref
15-06-16, 18:06
The Laws of the Game apply from kick off to no-side, and Law 8 is not exempt from this, so I see no reason to manage that Law any differently at the end of the match than at any other time.

If pick and go (under advantage) is what they are doing in the 27th minute of the game, then however you managed that is exactly how you should manage it at 79m 50s on the clock.

the difference is that advantage can be tactical, and what amounts to a tactical advantage will vary according to context.

What is tactical advatage?

8.1 (d) Tactical advantage means freedom for the non-offending team to play the ball as they wish

In this context - if all that they wish is to set up a nice, secure, tidy ruck with the ball safely available so that they can repeat until time expires then. if they have achieved that, got then why not call advantage over, and let them get on with it...

Pegleg
15-06-16, 20:06
I'm guessing Ian Cook means that you apply the same criteria. That is: "Is there a tactical or territorial advantage for the non offenders?" Your answer to that question may be different at different stages of the game or in different parts of the field.

Ian_Cook
15-06-16, 23:06
the difference is that advantage can be tactical, and what amounts to a tactical advantage will vary according to context.

What is tactical advatage?

8.1 (d) Tactical advantage means freedom for the non-offending team to play the ball as they wish

There is an expression you hear elite referees use "No advantage - always under pressure". They usually use it when the team have managed to clear the ruck, but has not been able to get the ball wide of the ruck because of opposition pressure by, for example, rush defence.


In this context -

We've had this debate before in the "knock-on into in-goal" thread. There is no mention of "context" in Law 8. Either a team has gained an advantage or they haven't.


if all that they wish is to set up a nice, secure, tidy ruck with the ball safely available so that they can repeat until time expires then. if they have achieved that, got then why not call advantage over, and let them get on with it...

Now, provided that is how you managed pick and drive under advantage earleir in the game, then that's OK at 79:50. The players will know how you managed the advantage earlier in the game, and they have every right to expect you to manage it the same way at the end of the game. If you manage it differently, then you are committing the biggest sin a referee can commit, inconsistency!

crossref
16-06-16, 08:06
There is an expression you hear elite referees use "No advantage - always under pressure". They usually use it when the team have managed to clear the ruck, but has not been able to get the ball wide of the ruck because of opposition pressure by, for example, rush defence.

that's the point though --

(d) Tactical advantage means freedom for the non-offending team to play the ball as they wish.

normally a team will wish to attack, so if they haven't got the ability to do this then no advantage is gained.

but in the circumstances of the OP we are told that the team do NOT wish to attack, but instead what they wish to do is ---


Have the forwards keep hold of the ball in the usual 'wait as long as possible, pick up, take a step, form a new ruck' way..

so once they form a tidy ruck, and any pressure they did have is relieved then they have got the freedom to play the ball as they wish (which is to recycle it a few more times until the whistle goes)...

You have to make a call one way or another, you can't wait any longer as they are never going to achieve territory, or an attacking option, as they aren't trying to.
So while the Law is the same in the 79th minute, what the team is trying to do has changed.

you could think territorially and call no adv gained, scrum

or you could think tactically and take the view that they have gained the freedom to play the ball exactly as they wish, and have therefore gained a tactical advantage as defined: adv over.

DocY
16-06-16, 09:06
I think I can see Ian's point. It's not often I'd call advantage over after recycling the ball once (I think crossref is being a bit stingy with his single recycle, but I can see where he's coming from), but I'd usually call something after two or three phases.

My gut feeling (which this thread hasn't really changed) is that I'd probably wait a similar number of phases as I would earlier in the game, but in the 80th minute, if they've gone back 10 meters and still have secure possession I'd say that's probably advantage over whereas earlier in the game when they were trying to attack I'd almost certainly go back for the scrum.

crossref
16-06-16, 09:06
but in the 80th minute, if they've gone back 10 meters and still have secure possession I'd say that's probably advantage over whereas earlier in the game when they were trying to attack I'd almost certainly go back for the scrum.

that's exactly the point I am making, yes.

Pegleg
16-06-16, 09:06
A "tactical" advantage can mean different things at different times to different people. EMPATHY!

Ian_Cook
16-06-16, 09:06
that's the point though --

(d) Tactical advantage means freedom for the non-offending team to play the ball as they wish.

normally a team will wish to attack, so if they haven't got the ability to do this then no advantage is gained.

but in the circumstances of the OP we are told that the team do NOT wish to attack, but instead what they wish to do is ---



so once they form a tidy ruck, and any pressure they did have is relieved then they have got the freedom to play the ball as they wish (which is to recycle it a few more times until the whistle goes)...

You have to make a call one way or another, you can't wait any longer as they are never going to achieve territory, or an attacking option, as they aren't trying to.
So while the Law is the same in the 79th minute, what the team is trying to do has changed.

you could think territorially and call no adv gained, scrum

or you could think tactically and take the view that they have gained the freedom to play the ball exactly as they wish, and have therefore gained a tactical advantage as defined: adv over.

So you think that the team is "playing playing the ball as they wish" when they run a series of "pick and drives" in the last minute, but they are NOT "playing the ball as they wish" when they did so in the 27th minute? If that is true, why were they doing it?

Let me outline for you a perfectly plausible scenario (one that is often repeated at all levels of rugby) that will help you to understand why I strongly object to your approach to managing advantage.

Same situation as the OP, BUT the Red team is 6 points ahead, and needs one try to claim a bonus point and deny their opponents a close loss bonus point. Red start to pick and drive under advantage; are they...

► Simply trying to wind down the clock to end the game, happy with the win?
► Trying to gain some ground to draw a PK so they can kick a goal and at least deny Blue a BP?
► Trying to score the try to get a BP themselves and deny Blue a BP?

Maybe they aren't even aware of the BP situation, or are not thinking of it, but how are you going to know that? What has happened to your context now?

As I said earlier, both teams have every right to expect consistency; to expect you to apply and manage advantage in exactly the same way in the 79th minute that you did in every other minute of the game. If you applied advantage differently in the 79th minute to the way you applied it to the rest of the game, you have not been consistent.

You have spent the first 75 minutes not calling advantage over until the ball is well clear, a couple of passes wide of the ruck, then suddenly in the 79th minute, you are calling advantage over after a pick and go. If I am your MO, you are in for a discussion about consistency in your rulings.

Trying to second guess what teams are doing or trying to do is fraught with danger. The safest path is to play exactly what is in front of you and remain consistent in the way you manage all aspects and phases of the game, including advantage.

crossref
16-06-16, 09:06
Trying to second guess what teams are doing or trying to do is fraught with danger. The safest path is to play exactly what is in front of you and remain consistent in the way you manage all aspects and phases of the game, including advantage.

On the contrary in training sessions often been told that a good ref understanda what a team is trying to do, and the more experienced and better ref you are, the more easily you can read the game, and the better you can ref it... whether it's to help you position yourself in the best place, or particularly to make good calls on materiality and advantage

On advantage

(d) Tactical advantage means freedom for the non-offending team to play the ball as they wish.
so their wishes come into it.


A "tactical" advantage can mean different things at different times to different people. EMPATHY!
quite right


The safest path is to play exactly what is in front of you and remain consistent in the way you manage all aspects and phases of the game, including advantage .

If you are saying that you pay no attention at all to what the team are trying to achieve - then I think you are being too rigid

Ian_Cook
16-06-16, 10:06
On the contrary in training sessions often been told that a good ref understanda what a team is trying to do, and the more experienced and better ref you are, the more easily you can read the game, and the better you can ref it... whether it's to help you position yourself in the best place, or particularly to make good calls on materiality and advantage

That does not apply to changing the way you apply the Laws.

I seriously doubt that any referee coach is telling you that changing your management of the advantage law in the dying seconds of a match is OK. If he is telling you that, then he ain't much of a referee coach.


If you are saying that you pay no attention at all to what the team are trying to achieve - then I think you are being too rigid

No, that is your strawman

I'm saying that you apply the Laws the same way from kick off to no-side

You haven't addressed the scenario I laid out for you. How are you going to apply context to a situation when there is no way that you can possibly know what Red are trying to do?


---


The Referee has been playing advantage the same way for 79 minutes; a couple of passes wide of the ruck under no defensive pressure is "advantage over".

Red are picking and driving with 30 seconds to go, They have decided to go for the BP try, safe in the knowledge that they have a scrum advantage, so if they make an error, they come back for the scrum. They continue to use pick and drives to try to draw in Blue defenders (even if they are not gaining ground) in an effort to make space out wide.

As they are about to go wide, the referee, Mr Gotcha (who is trying to be a clever dick and second guess that Red are trying to wind the clock down) suddenly changes what he has been doing all match, and calls advantage over, and as he does so, a Red player drops the ball, which a Blue player picks up and proceeds to run the length to score the try under the sticks. Blue kick the conversion to win.

I have a fair idea what the Red coach and players are going to say about Mr Gotcha; some of the words are likely to rhyme with "hunt" and "anchor"

If I am Mr Gotcha's match observer, he is in for a bollocking.

crossref
16-06-16, 10:06
Ian, you are so rude.

DocY
16-06-16, 11:06
The Referee has been playing advantage the same way for 79 minutes; a couple of passes wide of the ruck under no defensive pressure is "advantage over".

Red are picking and driving with 30 seconds to go, They have decided to go for the BP try, safe in the knowledge that they have a scrum advantage, so if they make an error, they come back for the scrum. They continue to use pick and drives to try to draw in Blue defenders (even if they are not gaining ground) in an effort to make space out wide.

As they are about to go wide, the referee, Mr Gotcha (who is trying to be a clever dick and second guess that Red are trying to wind the clock down) suddenly changes what he has been doing all match, and calls advantage over, and as he does so, a Red player drops the ball, which a Blue player picks up and proceeds to run the length to score the try under the sticks. Blue kick the conversion to win.

I have a fair idea what the Red coach and players are going to say about Mr Gotcha; some of the words are likely to rhyme with "hunt" and "anchor"

If I am Mr Gotcha's match observer, he is in for a bollocking.

I don't necessarily see an inconsistency here. There's more than one way to call advantage over and if the only time the ref has done so previously is two passes clear of a ruck then it's either been a very boring game or he's been very blinkered.

A scrum advantage can't be open ended - if a team is picking and going (even in the 27th minute) I'm not going to let them do so indefinitely with the safety net of advantage.
In your situation, how many times had they tried to suck in defenders? If they'd tried more than 6 times and the referee brought them back for the scrum I'd be giving him a bollocking for not calling it over. Sure, if they'd gone two or three times he might have called advantage over too soon, but that would be the same whenever it happened.

Ian_Cook
16-06-16, 11:06
A scrum advantage can't be open ended - if a team is picking and going (even in the 27th minute) I'm not going to let them do so indefinitely with the safety net of advantage.

I agree and I never suggested this at all.

If that is what you have been doing for the rest of the match, I have no problem with you doing it in the last seconds

What I will object to is you springing it on them with less that a minute on the clock after having not managed single advantage that way for the other 79 minutes.'

Refereeing by "gotcha" is always a bad idea!

DocY
16-06-16, 14:06
I don't think anyone's trying any "gotchas", just trying to allow advantage to be played as best as possible. Guessing what the players are wanting to do is part of that - and nine times out of ten we get it right.

Another (not unrealistic) example might be: blues are getting hammered in the scrums - every scrum so far has resulted in a red penalty. Red knock-on. If you were refereeing are you really not going to surmise that blue would rather advantage be called over, even if they've lost a few meters, than have a scrum?

ChrisR
16-06-16, 14:06
Guessing the intent of players is a slippery slope. Better to go by a standard of advantage lost or gained even as time runs out.

crossref
16-06-16, 14:06
judging tactical advantage by definition requires some understanding of their tactics -- you don't often have to guess: just to pay attention.

ChrisR
16-06-16, 15:06
CR, I agree that a referee can, over the course of the match, discern the general tactical play of a team.

However, should that influence how you manage advantage? I'd have to think long and hard about before I'd say "yes".

OB..
16-06-16, 16:06
If you argue that tactical advantage must always be judged the same way throughout a match, you are saying a team should not adjust its tactics according to the state of the match.

Yes, that presents difficulties, but I am uncomfortable with a rigid approach. If you play advantage when they don't want it, they can always say so.

crossref
16-06-16, 16:06
CR, I agree that a referee can, over the course of the match, discern the general tactical play of a team.

However, should that influence how you manage advantage? I'd have to think long and hard about before I'd say "yes".

well,
d) Tactical advantage means freedom for the non-offending team to play the ball as they wish.

so to say adv over, seems you have to have some idea of what they wish ..

Pegleg
16-06-16, 17:06
If you argue that tactical advantage must always be judged the same way throughout a match, you are saying a team should not adjust its tactics according to the state of the match.

Yes, that presents difficulties, but I am uncomfortable with a rigid approach. If you play advantage when they don't want it, they can always say so.

Common sense!