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DocY
26-07-16, 08:07
The other advantage threads reminded me of a problem I've had a few times:

The attacking team are playing penalty advantage close to the goal like ('close' as in the only advantage would be a try), but are both incapable of scoring and also managing to hold onto the ball without infringing.

In this case, how do we stop playing advantage without letting it go on too long?

After a few phases I'll usually look for slow ball, someone being knocked backwards in the tackle or further offences by the defending team, but would be interested to hear others' thoughts.

Drift
26-07-16, 08:07
If neither side have been holding onto the ball well I'll generally blow the PK straight away. Otherwise I am looking for a dominant tackle and the attacking side getting driven backwards or something like that until advantage is over and we're back for the PK.

DocY
26-07-16, 09:07
Sorry, I wasn't being clear - the attacking side are holding onto the ball well, they're just unable to score. It's much easier if they lose the ball!

Pegleg
26-07-16, 09:07
THis is what separates the men from the boys, and is why you can't make sweeping statemente like "once it is in goal it's advantage over." It's all about judgement. Advantage is not playing on in the hope that some advantage will accrue. A couple of phases and if they are not getting there blow up. Otherwise you've just wasted a few minutes to no point.

Be careful with coments like: "... the only advantage would be a try". Let's say there is a Penalty advantage 5 mts out. So you are applying the "... the only advantage would be a try" mantra. The ball is spun down the back line and the attacking side has a 3 man over lap and the ball is passed to the center who has the line at his mercy with no defender. He make a clean take and then he gets to within a foot of the line and drops the ball. That is advantage over. You can't protect him against his stupidity.

crossref
26-07-16, 09:07
Let's say there is a Penalty advantage 5 mts out. So you are applying the "... the only advantage would be a try" mantra. The ball is spun down the back line and the attacking side has a 3 man over lap and the ball is passed to the center who has the line at his mercy with no defender. He make a clean take and then he gets to within a foot of the line and drops the ball. That is advantage over. You can't protect him against his stupidity.

this is one of ChrisR's scenarios, and I just don't agree with your answer!

When the center had the line at his mercy with no defender, did you call advatage over?
- If you did call it over, then of course advantage is over. And him then dropping it is bad luck.

Or were you continuing to play advantage right up to the moment he dropped it?
- If so then when he dropped it advantage wasn't over (if it had been over, you'd have said so), so back to the PK



[caveat : yes, if you are talking about something happening in the 100ms inbetween thinking and speaking, then yes, it's tricky, but I don't think that's the real point here]

DocY
26-07-16, 10:07
Be careful with coments like: "... the only advantage would be a try".

You're quite right, it was sloppy language. My point, though, was to construct the most difficult 'how do I stop playing advantage?' situation I could think of, so I'm assuming none of these possible advantage overs have come up either (not that I agree with the dropping the ball with the line at your mercy advantage over - for me, you'd have to be doing something wilfully stupid for AO).

Paule23
26-07-16, 10:07
This is one of the main challenges I have with advantage, how long do you go on when the attacking team is going nowhere before you a) blow up as no advantage or b) call advantage over?

In this situation, I think most people would agree b) is not correct unless they score, as the advantage was given in a very kickable position. This then leaves you waiting for the team to score, but how long do you wait? I know it's a different game but I've seen this go on for ages on TV, and multiple phases, before being brought back for the infringement 3 minutes and 12 phases earlier. For me that is too long. I'm likely to give them 3 or 4 phases before blowing up, but it is very game and situation dependent.

If they are just banging continually on a brick wall, I'm going to bring them back sooner. If they are creating an overlap or getting very close to scoring, I'm likely to let it go on a bit longer, but the operative word here is a bit. Another 30 seconds and we're coming back regardless.

FlipFlop
26-07-16, 10:07
I normally after a few phases will ask. If it goes too long, it is crazy, but the team might be happy to keep going. Advantage is for the players, so if I can, I ask. I might say something like: "Do you want the Penalty?" might also add: "Advantage almost over" or similar.

I'm telling them to knock on, or say they want the PK. (I'm happy with the deliberate knock on, I know others are not)

If they play on, I'll call advantage over.

Then there can be no objections if they then knock-on, lose the ball etc.

90% of the time, they take the PK. But if time is tight, and they need a try, then sometimes they decline and keep going. But it is their choice. And I am happy letting it be their choice.

This is no different to any other PK advantage - they can always decline the advantage. All I am doing here is letting them know the time for declining is almost over.

crossref
26-07-16, 11:07
you can't say 'adv over' just because too much time has gone.

if so much time has passed that playing adv is looking silly, then it's not 'advantage over' it's 'no advantage gained, back to the PK'

ChrisR
26-07-16, 12:07
"No advantage" comes quick and easy if the defenders immediately pressure the attack such that they can't play the ball.

In the scenario you describe it helps to be a coach. When I watch a game I'm constantly switching my focus from form at the breakdown to team shape, both in attack and defense.

If after a couple of phases the defenders are holding shape and the attackers haven't created any critical mass at a point of attack then back to PK.

If the attackers have moved the defenders so there is space give them the chance to use it.

So, when advantage starts look to team shape. That will quickly tel you the chances for a breakthrough.

The last 5m is the toughest because the defenders don't have to cover deep so will everyone on the line.

crossref
26-07-16, 14:07
"
In the scenario you describe it helps to be a coach. When I watch a game I'm constantly switching my focus from form at the breakdown to team shape, both in attack and defense.

If after a couple of phases the defenders are holding shape and the attackers haven't created any critical mass at a point of attack then back to PK.

If the attackers have moved the defenders so there is space give them the chance to use it.

So, when advantage starts look to team shape. That will quickly tel you the chances for a breakthrough.


just from this description- I get the feeling that you are going on too long.

8.2 When advantage does not arise
The advantage must be clear and real. A mere opportunity to gain advantage is not enough. If the non-offending team does not gain an advantage, the referee blows the whistle and brings play back to the place of infringement.

you seem to be describing an opportunity to gain advantage.

(of course I have never seen you ref, it's probably just the way you come over in that particular post)

DocY
26-07-16, 14:07
just from this description- I get the feeling that you are going on too long.


What I took from Chris' post was that if the defence aren't being pulled this way and that, that's a good sign you should go for the penalty, otherwise give them a bit more time.

I guess you're focusing on the 'bit more time', but if the defence are being pulled out of shape effectively, they'll either concede a try or concede another penalty.

ChrisR
26-07-16, 15:07
What I'm offering is a cue to whether an advantage is likely to be gained not a rule of thumb to determine if advantage is over.

How do you manage advantage from a PK? Three phases and you're done? Thirty seconds? Twenty seconds? Ten seconds?

Take a quick read on the shape of the teams. If the attacking team doesn't have the numbers or is poorly organized you don't need three phases to figure out they're not going anywhere.

If the defenders are out gunned or in poor shape then give the attackers the opportunity to capitalize.

Again, these are cues to determine the possibilities, not rule on advantage.

Pegleg
26-07-16, 20:07
this is one of ChrisR's scenarios, and I just don't agree with your answer!

When the center had the line at his mercy with no defender, did you call advatage over?
- If you did call it over, then of course advantage is over. And him then dropping it is bad luck.

Or were you continuing to play advantage right up to the moment he dropped it?
- If so then when he dropped it advantage wasn't over (if it had been over, you'd have said so), so back to the PK



[caveat : yes, if you are talking about something happening in the 100ms inbetween thinking and speaking, then yes, it's tricky, but I don't think that's the real point here]

No I'm trying to answer his point by showing that hard and fast rules do not count. You can't say that with an offence close to the line only a try will do. Once there is real advatange and a clear voer lap wit hthe line in sight is advantage over. If the ball is dropped there is no sympathy from me for the poor sod who will be buying the beer in the bar later. Yes as covered in other threads I 'd call advantage over so players knew where they stand.

Pegleg
26-07-16, 21:07
The more you ref the better you will be at judging advantage. Too often refs allow the game to go on in the HOPE that advantage might eventually accrue. That is not what it's about. Try to stay clear of the pro boys example, they are serving their masters and pandering to TV.

As mentioned above look at the shape of the sides. Ask yourself is advantage likely. Remember whether the advantage is P or S the degree of advantage is very different.

Dickie E
27-07-16, 05:07
I normally after a few phases will ask. If it goes too long, it is crazy, but the team might be happy to keep going. Advantage is for the players, so if I can, I ask. I might say something like: "Do you want the Penalty?" might also add: "Advantage almost over" or similar.



Who do you ask?

FlipFlop
27-07-16, 09:07
Who do you ask?

Normally the SH, loudly. He is normally the one who can choose to decline (deliberate knock on etc), but anyone around the ball will hear. Any of them can make the decision (this is why I like the deliberate knock on - there is no complaint, no "but he can't say that" etc, and everyone can do it)

So to really answer your question - I ask those around the ball. In reality - in a game - you know who to ensure can hear the question. Maybe the main forward (pack leader possibly), maybe the #9, maybe the captain, maybe the #10.

It is actually normally very easy to direct it at those who need to know. If it isn't, then I make the decision. Which is normally - going no-where, back the PK (and they can choose to tap and go, and get back to pounding the line if they want).

DocY
27-07-16, 16:07
I'm not sure I like this approach (asking while still playing advantage), particularly if it's in the context of "you're about to lose advantage - speak now if you want the PK".

It seems to go against the purpose of the advantage law somewhat.

And I can envisage a particularly sneaky scrum half saying "right, this is what he's been doing all game. We need to run the clock down so if we're playing advantage just hold onto the ball until 'advantage is nearly over', then knock on and waste time". That's what I'd do, anyway.

Pegleg
27-07-16, 17:07
That can of worms again.

OB..
27-07-16, 18:07
One clear benefit of the PMB: tell the captain that if they don't want to play the advantage, they (captain or scrum half usually) just need to tell you. (If the wrong person pipes up, it's their fault!)

TheBFG
28-07-16, 11:07
If non offending side are in possession and we're inside the defenders 10m (this will depend on the level of the game and maybe even the conditions) we'll play on until they make at least a clear line break as a minimum, but chances are unless they score a try they'll be getting a choice of a shot at goal at worst.

With regards to who calls it over, i'll expect it to come from the capt, but might also accept it from the SH, that said, the SH is not getting "yes sir we'll have it" and also the chance to take it quickly knowing the defenders are unable to tackle him :nono:

crossref
28-07-16, 11:07
With regards to who calls it over, i'll expect it to come from the capt, but might also accept it from the SH, that said, the SH is not getting "yes sir we'll have it" and also the chance to take it quickly knowing the defenders are unable to tackle him :nono:

not sure why you wouldn't let him take it quickly. It's the other team that committed the PK offence who are being penalised, why must they now be given time to organise their defence?

If he's not allowed to go quickly when he tells you 'yes sir, we'll have it' then next time he'll contrive to accidentally fumble the ball, after which, presumably, you do let him go quickly.

DocY
28-07-16, 12:07
not sure why you wouldn't let him take it quickly. It's the other team that committed the PK offence who are being penalised, why must they now be given time to organise their defence?


I can see BFG's point, though I don't think it should be a hard and fast rule.

Take this example: Ruck offence 5m out, ball is coming out nonetheless, "penalty advantage", "we'll have the PK, sir", [PEEEP], the 9 (already on the mark with the ball) taps and scores before the defenders have realised what's happening.

I wouldn't say you can't take a quick tap if you've asked for the PK, but when it can be taken immediately it can be overly advantageous. If he were to deliberately drop the ball, that would add an extra half second between the PK being awarded and taken.

crossref
28-07-16, 13:07
Take this example: Ruck offence 5m out, ball is coming out nonetheless, "penalty advantage", "we'll have the PK, sir", [PEEEP], the 9 (already on the mark with the ball) taps and scores before the defenders have realised what's happening.
.

they get a PEEEEEP --- which is exactly the same warning as they get when you don't play advantage at all.

In fact more so -- as not only did they get the PEEEEP - they were actually pre-warned that the PEEEEP was coming, as they heard you announce penalty advantage, and they heard the oppo ask for the kick. They don't really have any reason to act surprised.

The key here is actually the PEEEEP which needs to be exactly the same as every PK peep.

DocY
28-07-16, 15:07
The key here is actually the PEEEEP which needs to be exactly the same as every PK peep.

Agreed, though the difference I see is the SH (for it is usually he) getting ready for the quick tap before asking for the kick. At lower levels the defence just won't think to react, though I agree that that's their own fault. It's one of those things that, to me, looks wrong, so my reaction is to stop it.

TBH, the only time I've seen this happen successfully (though I brought him back and made him take it again, being very strict on the precise place) was when there was a huge mismatch and the defending team obviously didn't want to be there. I might have had a bit more heat had they not been 40 points clear, but as it was, nothing was said.

crossref
28-07-16, 15:07
Agreed, though the difference I see is the SH (for it is usually he) getting ready for the quick tap before asking for the kick. At lower levels the defence just won't think to react, though I agree that that's their own fault. It's one of those things that, to me, looks wrong, so my reaction is to stop it.


I think a couple of things

- when they ask for the penalty, wait a beat before the PEEP, so that no one knows exactly when the whistle is coming. Both sides have to react to the whistle (not you reacting to them)

- I don't know exactly why, but somehow there's a temptation in these circumstances to deliver a quieter PEEP -- because they know it's coming I guess, whereas the 'normal' PK blast is an urgent instruction to stop. That temptation is to be avoided, as it plays into the SH's hands, helping the surprise - it must be the normal PK PEEEEP, that puts both sides on an equal footing.

But also : rugby is a game for brains as well as brawn, and a team that thinks clearly and cleverly, stays calm, listens to the referee, and reacts quickly to his decisions, will have a lot of opportunites to gain an advantage over 80 minutes. This is a key rugby skill (IMO) which we shouldn't be seeking to muzzle.

ChrisR
28-07-16, 18:07
The one advantage that I can see in asking for the PK quickly is being close to the mark. If advantage is played and the ball is run cross field and then it has to come back to the mark giving the defenders time to reorganize.

The up side of playing out advantage is getting free chances to score.

TheBFG
29-07-16, 08:07
You can of course control the whole situation in taking your time to "give the mark" :wink:

I'm not against them taking a quick one, but a smart SH, might well wait until play is moving away from the mark, defenders following play and then say, "yes sir we'll have it", he dashes back to where we've all just come from etc.

It's also a case of self preservation too! You have the situation above, the SH rushes back to the mark and then someone tackles him as they believe they're hard done by (again depending on the level) you have another situation to deal with! Let's not make ourselves centre of attention :wink: