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didds
24-08-16, 10:08
I've just been asked a couple of queries and I thought it best to throw them open to you guys...



I have done an hours search on the World Wide Web and the consensus for picking the ball up at the back of the ruck/Scrum is.

Once the ball has been raised from the floor then the play is open and the defense can approach the player carrying the ball.

This implies the scrum half can have 2 hands on the ball as long as he doesn't lift it from the floor. Correct?


didds

Thunderhorse1986
24-08-16, 10:08
I consider the ball is out when it is:

Lifted off the floor (whether two hands or one hand)
or
Past the back foot

I tell this to 9s before the game in PMB. Obviously if the ball flies out the side of a ruck it is not past the back foot, but it's fair clear then when it's out hopefully!

Dickie E
24-08-16, 10:08
I consider the ball is out when it is past the back foot irrespective of whether or not SH has his hands on it.

The Fat
24-08-16, 11:08
I've just been asked a couple of queries and I thought it best to throw them open to you guys...

[QUOTE]
I have done an hours search on the World Wide Web and the consensus for picking the ball up at the back of the ruck/Scrum is.

Once the ball has been raised from the floor then the play is open and the defense can approach the player carrying the ball.

This implies the scrum half can have 2 hands on the ball as long as he doesn't lift it from the floor. Correct?
[QUOTE/]

didds

Well the problem here are the mixed (mixed up) messages provided by WR/Old IRB.
Our instruction down under is that the ball is out of the ruck when it is "clear of bodies" i.e. the SH has picked the ball up and lifted it clear of bodies.
Therefore;
1. When the SH puts a hand/hands on the ball, it is not open play
2. When the SH reaches in and lifts the ball off the ground (2 hands on) but it is still "inside" the ruck, it is not open play

I have asked ARU presenters if this is WR's interpretation and they tell me "most definitely".

All good until WR release the following in their Law Application Guidelines.

Offside at the ruck

May 2014

When a scrum half attempts to retrieve the ball from a ruck, the ball is not out until that player has picked the ball up from the ground.

In the clip the scrum half is taken out by the player before the ball is off the ground and this would be deemed to be offside by the player tackling the scrum half. If, however, the scrum half had picked up the ball and a defending player tackles the scrum half, that player does so without sanction.

http://laws.worldrugby.org/?domain=9&guideline=7

There is an accompanying video that shows what is illegal (in one instance) but there is not a 2nd video to show when a defender CAN advance and tackle the SH. The text implies that as soon as the ball is lifted, the SH is fair game (IMO and also by directives from ARU the text should say "If, however, the scrum half had picked up the ball clear of bodies"). The text would appear to contradict what Unions have been told as to when the ball is out (and therefore back to open play).

So to answer your question,

"Once the ball has been raised from the floor then the play is open and the defense can approach the player carrying the ball."

Not necessarily. There are instances when the SH is digging/extracting the ball from within a tangle of bodies/legs and we don't allow opposition players to tackle/interfere with him.

"This implies the scrum half can have 2 hands on the ball as long as he doesn't lift it from the floor. Correct?"

We don't allow a SH to put hands on the ball and dick around summing up his options whilst leaving the ball on the ground to gain "immunity".

Nigib
24-08-16, 11:08
I go with past the back foot, or clear of bodies (or out the side).
In the case of a 9 dicking about, there is 'use it', then a quiet reminder not to delay unnecessarily.
I can also call 'clear' or similar to indicate the defence can proceed - with the two way fingerpointing signal for the avoidance of doubt.

winchesterref
24-08-16, 11:08
I go with past the back foot, or clear of bodies (or out the side).
In the case of a 9 dicking about, there is 'use it', then a quiet reminder not to delay unnecessarily.
I can also call 'clear' or similar to indicate the defence can proceed - with the two way fingerpointing signal for the avoidance of doubt.

http://www.londontranslations.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/instant-quote-man.jpg

Phil E
24-08-16, 12:08
If the ball is lifted off the floor its out.

I don't care how many hands the SH has (Yes, i'm looking at you Forest of Dean!)

TheBFG
24-08-16, 13:08
I've just been asked a couple of queries and I thought it best to throw them open to you guys...



didds

past the back foot or Off the ground is out, suggest you pass this on to your seniors, cus that's how it'll be reffed Thursday night :wink:

thepercy
24-08-16, 17:08
For me once it is lifted from the ground it is out, and the SH is fair game to be tackled.

thepercy
24-08-16, 20:08
[QUOTE=didds;319421]I've just been asked a couple of queries and I thought it best to throw them open to you guys...



Well the problem here are the mixed (mixed up) messages provided by WR/Old IRB.
Our instruction down under is that the ball is out of the ruck when it is "clear of bodies" i.e. the SH has picked the ball up and lifted it clear of bodies.
Therefore;
1. When the SH puts a hand/hands on the ball, it is not open play
2. When the SH reaches in and lifts the ball off the ground (2 hands on) but it is still "inside" the ruck, it is not open play


Regarding 2.

If I understand correctly, in Oz, the SH can lift the ball, and as long as it is above the bodies, it is considered to be still in the ruck, and the ruck continues?

Ian_Cook
24-08-16, 20:08
If I understand correctly, in Oz, the SH can lift the ball, and as long as it is above the bodies, it is considered to be still in the ruck, and the ruck continues?

Not quite. The ball needs to be "clear of bodies"



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK9Wb6hLfbw

OB..
24-08-16, 20:08
For me once it is lifted from the ground it is out, and the SH is fair game to be tackled.That means the SH needs to drag the ball along the ground until it is clear enough of the bodies for him to be able to lift it and pass it.

I am not in favour of an interpretation that allows the SH to be tackled before the ball has been cleared.

The Fat
24-08-16, 21:08
[QUOTE=The Fat;319429]

Regarding 2.

If I understand correctly, in Oz, the SH can lift the ball, and as long as it is above the bodies, it is considered to be still in the ruck, and the ruck continues?

No. Once it is lifted clear of bodies (i.e. above, behind), it is out. If a SH is digging for the ball and is reaching in and lifts the ball in order to remove it, as soon as the ball is clear of the tangled mess, the ball is out. At the instant he lifts the ball off the ground, he could still be up to his elbows in players' legs/arms and at that stage the ball is still in the ruck.

In the 2 photos, both have the ball off the ground but only one is clear of bodies and therefore out.
34523453

SimonSmith
25-08-16, 00:08
for me once it is lifted from the ground it is out, and the sh is fair game to be tackled.

rtfgmg

Dickie E
25-08-16, 05:08
In the 2 photos, both have the ball off the ground but only one is clear of bodies and therefore out.


Agree. For me (as I've said before) it is as much about safety. A vulnerable SH with eyes down, bent at waist and digging for ball shouldn't be clattered by monster flankers

Thunderhorse1986
25-08-16, 07:08
I like this explanation (clear of bodies) but even then it will no doubt be subject to varying interpretations by both players and referees. I think players should be able to adapt to the ref in most cases, but most importantly, as a ref it's generally obvious when it is out or not, you just know from seeing it. And if it isn't out and you see defensive players encroach, manage them back onside to ensure they don't actually offend.

didds
25-08-16, 08:08
rtfgmg

que?

didds

Camquin
25-08-16, 10:08
Read the flaming game management guide.

Ian_Cook
25-08-16, 11:08
Read the flaming game management guide.


Err, knowing Simon as I do, I don't think "flaming" was the word he had in mind :biggrin: :norc:

SimonSmith
25-08-16, 13:08
From TFGMG:

BALL OUT
A. RUCK1. The ball is out when it is totally exposed and clear of bodies (of players in the ruck).
2. While the competition for the ball in a ruck is ongoing, hands by players in the ruck, are NOT allowed. PK
3. Once the ball has been clearly won, pushing the ball back by using the hand,by a player of the team that have won possession of the ball is permissible,
4. Digging for the ball, by the player of the team who has won possession of the ball, who is in the scrumhalf position and not part of the ruck, is permissible and the BALL IS NOT OUT.
5. If a player in the scrum half position is not retrieving (digging for) the ball, but holding the ball, with one or two hands, the BALL IS NOT OUT, picking up the ball is OUT.
6. Players in the ruck may under no circumstance slap the ball out of the scrumhalf’s hands or interfere with the scrumhalf. PK

B. MAUL
1. Players in the maul may under no circumstance slap the ball out of the scrumhalf’s hands or interfere with the scrumhalf. PK

C. SCRUM
1. The ball is out when it is totally exposed and clear of bodies (of players in the scrum).2. If the hindmost player detaches from the scrum (both shoulders) with the ball at the feet, and attempts to pick up the ball, the BALL IS OUT.

ChrisR
25-08-16, 14:08
3. Once the ball has been clearly won, pushing the ball back by using the hand,by a player of the team that have won possession of the ball is permissible,

This is not consistent with law. Simon, are we OK to do this?

2. If the hindmost player detaches from the scrum (both shoulders) with the ball at the feet, and attempts to pick up the ball, the BALL IS OUT.

I wish they'd dump the part in red. It's unnecessary.

DocY
25-08-16, 14:08
2. If the hindmost player detaches from the scrum (both shoulders) with the ball at the feet, and attempts to pick up the ball, the BALL IS OUT.

I wish they'd dump the part in red. It's unnecessary.

I guess it's because that's what it says in the lawbook, but isn't it worded that way to make it clear that the 8 can't break off without the ball?

Camquin
25-08-16, 15:08
No we are no OK with this, but it is how the game is managed - by secret memo.
Why can't they simply edit the laws of the game.

DocY - as we have seen from the other parts of the fetid gmg the laws of the game have nothing to do with the case tra-la

Phil E
25-08-16, 16:08
I guess it's because that's what it says in the lawbook, but isn't it worded that way to make it clear that the 8 can't break off without the ball?

But that isn't what it says in the lawbook.

Lawbook says unbinds and picks up the ball, not "attempts" to pick up the ball.

DocY
25-08-16, 16:08
But that isn't what it says in the lawbook.

Lawbook says unbinds and picks up the ball, not "attempts" to pick up the ball.

Oops - missed the "attempts" above!

SimonSmith
25-08-16, 16:08
3. Once the ball has been clearly won, pushing the ball back by using the hand,by a player of the team that have won possession of the ball is permissible,

This is not consistent with law. Simon, are we OK to do this?

Yes, and have been for aeons.

Ian_Cook
25-08-16, 20:08
Yes, and have been for aeons.

Yes. There is a very important part of all Game Management Guidelines that some people are missing... its the word "management"

If you applied the black-letter Laws of the game at ruck time, you would PK every SH who reached in for the ball.

ChrisR
25-08-16, 23:08
Yes, and have been for aeons.

So, a player bound into a ruck, can reach out and move the ball by hand to the back of the ruck ... given that they have won it and it's on his side of the ruck.

I know it's been in the USA GMGs for some years but I figure it would just get pinged. Simon, all your guys know this?

Dickie E
26-08-16, 01:08
But that isn't what it says in the lawbook.

Lawbook says unbinds and picks up the ball, not "attempts" to pick up the ball.

Dancing on pinhead IMO.

If #8 breaks off, puts hands on ball but knocks it on instead of picking it up, I'm going with scrum for knock-on, not penalty for failing to pick up ball.

SimonSmith
26-08-16, 17:08
So, a player bound into a ruck, can reach out and move the ball by hand to the back of the ruck ... given that they have won it and it's on his side of the ruck.

I know it's been in the USA GMGs for some years but I figure it would just get pinged. Simon, all your guys know this?
The ones who are refereeing at the kind of level where this would be a thing, yes.

It's been a standard practice in refereeing since...forever. I'm sure Ed Morrison mentions it in his book

Dixie
30-08-16, 14:08
rtfgmg Play nicely Simon!


2. If the hindmost player detaches from the scrum (both shoulders) with the ball at the feet, and attempts to pick up the ball, the BALL IS OUT.

I wish they'd dump the part in red. It's unnecessary. Not really. If the #8 detaches and makes no attempt to pick up the ball, you ping him under 20.1(e) coupled with 20.10(c).

20.1(e) Number of players: eight. A scrum must have eight players from each team. All eight
players must stay bound to the scrum until it ends. Each front row must have three players
in it, no more and no less. Two locks must form the second row.
Sanction: Penalty kick

20.10(c) Hindmost player unbinds. The hindmost player in a scrum is the player whose feet are
nearest the team’s own goal line. If the hindmost player unbinds from the scrum with the
ball at that player’s feet and picks up the ball , the scrum ends.

ChrisR
30-08-16, 16:08
Play nicely Simon! Not really. If the #8 detaches and makes no attempt to pick up the ball, you ping him under 20.1(e) coupled with 20.10(c).20.1(e) Number of players: eight. A scrum must have eight players from each team. All eightplayers must stay bound to the scrum until it ends. Each front row must have three playersin it, no more and no less. Two locks must form the second row.Sanction: Penalty kick20.10(c) Hindmost player unbinds. The hindmost player in a scrum is the player whose feet arenearest the teamís own goal line. If the hindmost player unbinds from the scrum with theball at that playerís feet and picks up the ball , the scrum ends.Dixie,Why complicate it and produce another reason to stop the game. What advantage is there to adding the words "... and attempts to pick up the ball."? Why not simply: "If the hindmost player unbinds with the ball at his feet the scrum has ended successfully". Bingo! Play on! Yes, he'd better be quick about picking it up.

OB..
30-08-16, 17:08
Dixie,Why complicate it and produce another reason to stop the game. What advantage is there to adding the words "... and attempts to pick up the ball."? Why not simply: "If the hindmost player unbinds with the ball at his feet the scrum has ended successfully". Bingo! Play on! Yes, he'd better be quick about picking it up.If you don't have that requirement, then the #8 could be considered to be obstructing the opposing #9. I think it makes things tidier.

Dixie
01-09-16, 16:09
If you don't have that requirement, then the #8 could be considered to be obstructing the opposing #9. I think it makes things tidier. That was exactly my thought on reading Chrisr's post. If the hindmost player could legally detach, thereby ending the scrum, he'd be coached to do so in such a way as to impede the opposing #9 and give his own #9 the best unchallenged service. If we then ask "and so what?", I'd refer back to one of the primary objectives of the game - the principle of a fair contest for the ball as detailed in the Principles of the Game:

As one team attempts to maintain continuity of possession, the opposing team strives to contest for possession. This provides the essential balance between continuity of play and continuity of possession. This balance of contestability and continuity applies to both set piece and general play.

ChrisR
02-09-16, 11:09
.... and if the #8 unbound and obstructed the ops #9 he would be liable for penalty.

Not sure if this link is still good: www.youtube.com/watch?v=BU5Yk9ug5W8

ABs vs. Wales 2003 WC. First scrum 2 minutes into the game.

tim White
03-09-16, 09:09
Note 8 changing position after the engage binding now onto lock and flanker -and then applying the block on opposition 9.