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rugbyslave
25-08-16, 08:08
I am now slightly confused, when a maul was formed no matter if the ball carrier went to ground the other players had no obligation to release the ball or the ball carrier, so if a referee calls maul how can he then ask for the other players to release the ball carrier. This tendency has started from the 7's circuit.
I guess if the referee kept his option open and does not call maul then he can ask the other players to release the ball carrier once his knees touch the ground.

Any ideas on this tendency !!!

Phil E
25-08-16, 10:08
The way we referee it here:

If a maul goes to ground legally and players in the maul are bound onto the ball carrier there is no obligation for them to release. Peep; Unplayable, turnover.

What they can't do is pounce on, lie on, or hold onto the ball carrier AFTER it goes to ground. "Release!"

Pegleg
25-08-16, 11:08
Sadly Phil, your interpretation - which I share - is not universally adopted in the north. The Roll away call is all too common. The "justifications" seems to be "it looks wrong" and it calling for a roll away keeps it all tidy.

DocY
25-08-16, 12:08
I'm with Phil. If you've called 'maul', nobody has to release, even if it collapses, though I'd potentially ping someone diving into a collapsed maul (though would manage it first).

Not calling 'maul' is one of my bugbears. Very frustrating to see a clear maul, but for the referee not to call it, it to collapse and the put in go to the wrong team.

Sounds like the northerners might need reeducation.

ChrisR
25-08-16, 13:08
I agree that 7s has possibly confused the issue. Mauls rarely happen in 7s. Usually it's the BC engaged by multiple defenders holding him up and attempting to strip him of the ball. This is still general play and can continue as long as the defenders hold up the BC and the BC can't get to ground and the BC support don't come in and join.

The BC will fight to get a knee on the deck and if he succeeds the situation changes to tackle and then the 'graspers' (they are not 'tacklers if they stay on their feet) have to release and the BC has to make a play with the ball. This scenario in 15s can be confused with a maul and a maul (with 2nd/3rd BC support joining) can be confused with a tackle. Hence the inappropriate call to 'Release'.

If a maul has formed in either 15s or 7s and the player with the ball goes to ground it is covered by 17.6 Unsuccessful End to a Maul:

(g) If the ball carrier in a maul goes to ground, including being on one or both knees or sitting, the referee orders a scrum unless the ball is immediately available.

Therefore it is not automatically a scrum call unless the ball is unavailable. If the defenders have their hands on the ball and prevent the BC from from making it available they do not have to release him should he get a knee on the ground and the defenders should get the scrum feed.

Should the BC find himself trapped in a maul, unable to pass the ball to his support, instead of trying to get to ground (and giving up a turnover scrum) he should force the ball to ground and convert the maul to a ruck. If the ball becomes unplayable in the subsequent ruck they should get the scrum feed.

DocY
25-08-16, 13:08
If the defenders have their hands on the ball and prevent the BC from from making it available they do not have to release him should he get a knee on the ground and the defenders should get the scrum feed.


I'm not sure I agree.

If the BC gets his knee to ground (before a maul is formed) it's a tackle and he's obliged to release the ball and the 'graspers' are obliged to let go of him (or the ball) before going for it again (15.6(c)).

I practice, neither of these obligations will be met, so I treat it as the ball becoming unplayable in a ruck.

ChrisR
25-08-16, 14:08
I was referring to after a maul is formed not a tackle. I thought that was clear from the previous paragraph.

I practice, neither of these obligations will be met, so I treat it as the ball becoming unplayable in a ruck.

Except the subsequent scrum feed for unplayable ruck and unplayable maul are different. So the question is: did the ball make it to ground (and convert to a ruck) before it became unplayable?

winchesterref
25-08-16, 14:08
I'm not sure I agree.

If the BC gets his knee to ground (before a maul is formed) it's a tackle and he's obliged to release the ball and the 'graspers' are obliged to let go of him (or the ball) before going for it again (15.6(c)).

I practice, neither of these obligations will be met, so I treat it as the ball becoming unplayable in a ruck.

I'd penalise the defenders if I've called to them that it's a tackle/release/tried to manage it and they ignore me.

DocY
25-08-16, 14:08
I'd penalise the defenders if I've called to them that it's a tackle/release/tried to manage it and they ignore me.

Wouldn't you apply the same management/sanctions to the BC, too?

Phil E
25-08-16, 15:08
Wouldn't you apply the same management/sanctions to the BC, too?

We generally work in the order...
Tackler release
Ball carrier release

DocY
25-08-16, 15:08
We generally work in the order...
Tackler release
Ball carrier release

Fair enough. In general I agree, but in such situations (at least the one in my head) I'm not so sure - I just think expecting a 'grasper' holding a BC who could be on his feet at the time (IME, often a knee will hit the ground then come back up, particularly if the grasper is trying to hold him up) is a bit unnatural and a scrum is an equitable outcome.

If the BC was very obviously on his knees, though, I'd agree the graspers should release.

ChrisR
25-08-16, 16:08
I just think expecting a 'grasper' holding a BC who could be on his feet at the time (IME, often a knee will hit the ground then come back up, particularly if the grasper is trying to hold him up) is a bit unnatural and a scrum is an equitable outcome.

If the BC gets a knee to the ground, even if he gets stood up again, he has won the battle. It breaks the impasse. The BC must immediately go to ground and make his play with the ball. If he doesn't then ....... manage it.

OB..
25-08-16, 17:08
If the BC gets a knee to the ground, even if he gets stood up again, he has won the battle.Only if the referee sees it, however.

thepercy
25-08-16, 18:08
Fair enough. In general I agree, but in such situations (at least the one in my head) I'm not so sure - I just think expecting a 'grasper' holding a BC who could be on his feet at the time (IME, often a knee will hit the ground then come back up, particularly if the grasper is trying to hold him up) is a bit unnatural and a scrum is an equitable outcome.

If the BC was very obviously on his knees, though, I'd agree the graspers should release.

Communication is key, shout "Tackle" and everyone knows, or should, that they need to release the BC, and the BC knows he can't just hold on to the ball and keep running. PKs to those who fail to comply.

DocY
26-08-16, 07:08
Communication is key, shout "Tackle" and everyone knows, or should, that they need to release the BC, and the BC knows he can't just hold on to the ball and keep running. PKs to those who fail to comply.

Indeed. IME, in some circumstances this rarely happens, even when shouting. In that case I'm loathe to penalise one team or the other when they're both offending.

Decorily
26-08-16, 09:08
I'm not sure I agree.

If the BC gets his knee to ground (before a maul is formed) it's a tackle .......



Not everyone would agree with this statement.

Is the BC going to ground voluntarily a tackle?

winchesterref
26-08-16, 09:08
Not everyone would agree with this statement.

Is the BC going to ground voluntarily a tackle?

Yes, because if the player has been held as in the definitions, law 15.3 says so

15.3 Brought to the ground defined
(a) If the ball carrier has one knee or both knees on the ground, that player has been ‘brought to ground’.

Fatboy_Ginge
28-08-16, 20:08
Indeed. IME, in some circumstances this rarely happens, even when shouting. In that case I'm loathe to penalise one team or the other when they're both offending.

If you shout Tackle and the tackler doesn't release the ball carrier, given Phil's observation then he/she gets penalised. The first offence is the main one here. If the tackler is still holding the BC then how are they supposed to make the ball available, likewise the tackler is supposed to roll away. If they just lie there you'd penalise that.

SimonSmith
28-08-16, 23:08
If you shout Tackle and the tackler doesn't release the ball carrier, given Phil's observation then he/she gets penalised. The first offence is the main one here. If the tackler is still holding the BC then how are they supposed to make the ball available, likewise the tackler is supposed to roll away. If they just lie there you'd penalise that.

I'm not as 100% on that latter statement as you might think, and I think it's an easy trap to fall into.

I think my role is to allow a fair competition for the ball, and to create space and time.
If the ball carrier is isolated and is tackled round the ankles, with a jackler about to strip, I'm not going to worry too hard about the tackler's failure to release the ankles. My priority order at the tackle is entirely informed by the circumstance of the tackle, and not by a a rigid 1 - 2 - 3 that has no game relevance.

YMMV

SmeejDad
06-10-16, 15:10
Sorry to bring this up again chaps - I'm a new referee and only recently joined the forum so have been scouring the old threads and this one is very relevant to a situation I had last weekend.

So just to clarify: If the maul has formed with players from both teams bound, but, the ball carrier manages to get a knee to the ground at this stage is it play on? My point being - the graspers don't have to release the ball carrier once the maul has formed even if he gets a knee to the ground yes?

Thanks,
SD

DocY
06-10-16, 15:10
Sorry to bring this up again chaps - I'm a new referee and only recently joined the forum so have been scouring the old threads and this one is very relevant to a situation I had last weekend.

So just to clarify: If the maul has formed with players from both teams bound, but, the ball carrier manages to get a knee to the ground at this stage is it play on? My point being - the graspers don't have to release the ball carrier once the maul has formed even if he gets a knee to the ground yes?

Thanks,
SD

If you've already called 'maul' it's still a maul and his knee is irrelevant - it's when he gets his knee down before the maul is formed that you have to release.

A maul is only over if the ball touches the ground (or leaves the maul, or crosses the goal line, or becomes a mess).

SmeejDad
06-10-16, 15:10
Brilliant - thank you very much!

ChrisR
06-10-16, 17:10
If you've already called 'maul' it's still a maul and his knee is irrelevant - it's when he gets his knee down before the maul is formed that you have to release.

A maul is only over if the ball touches the ground (or leaves the maul, or crosses the goal line, or becomes a mess).

The knee is not irrelevant.

17.6 Unsuccesful end to a maul

(g) If the ball carrier in a maul goes to ground, including being on one or both knees or sitting,
the referee orders a scrum unless the ball is immediately available.

"Immediately available" is relevant. If the BC gets a knee down he better get the ball to the deck ASAP or the ops will be feeding a scrum.

If he gets a knee down but forces the ball to the deck immediately then the maul is over and the ball is back in play in a ruck.

Not everyone will agree with that last sentence but that is how I read the law.

Christy
06-10-16, 22:10
The knee is not irrelevant.

17.6 Unsuccesful end to a maul

(g) If the ball carrier in a maul goes to ground, including being on one or both knees or sitting,
the referee orders a scrum unless the ball is immediately available.

"Immediately available" is relevant. If the BC gets a knee down he better get the ball to the deck ASAP or the ops will be feeding a scrum.

If he gets a knee down but forces the ball to the deck immediately then the maul is over and the ball is back in play in a ruck.

Not everyone will agree with that last sentence but that is how I read the law.

For me , ild only go with your bit in red , bc gone to floor , use ball immedoately or turn over scrum .
If he only a knee on ground , & forces ball back ,,i wouldnt be too focused on this is now a ruck ..
I would look for ball to be played immediately still ,,or turn over ball.

If bc drops ball in a maul .
1 of 2 things will possibly occure .
Ball unplayable , unsucsefull end to maul = turn over .
Ball will be either kicked out , or kicked back or forward ,,if either team can get ball to back maul with feet & it be played like a ruck situation ,,i see this as ok ?????
If ball kicked out & away from maul i would play on ?????

?????? = am i correct or please advise

Dickie E
06-10-16, 23:10
If bc drops ball in a maul .
1 of 2 things will possibly occure .


3rd possible occurrence. If ball is dropped forward it is a knock on.

ChrisR
07-10-16, 10:10
Christy, it comes down to how you define "immediately available". To me, the ball released to the deck is immediately available to be played by the feet in the ruck. It doesn't mean the ball has been put back into general play. This is where there will be disagreement.

DocY
07-10-16, 10:10
Christy, it comes down to how you define "immediately available". To me, the ball released to the deck is immediately available to be played by the feet in the ruck. It doesn't mean the ball has been put back into general play. This is where there will be disagreement.

IME I don't think the definition of 'immediately' really matters - if the BC's gone to ground the ball isn't coming out, immediately or otherwise.

didds
07-10-16, 11:10
well, I think that is WADR too trite. BC goes to ground and is able to plac ethne ball as soon as he lands at the feet of the rear most player, then the ball is immediately available?

didds

Christy
07-10-16, 13:10
Christy, it comes down to how you define "immediately available". To me, the ball released to the deck is immediately available to be played by the feet in the ruck. It doesn't mean the ball has been put back into general play. This is where there will be disagreement.

ok , maybe i can explain better my view ,
for me if the ball is not played immediately { with in approx 5 secs , or more if i can see ball coming }

rugbyslave
17-10-16, 05:10
If we are going to be so pedantic about the knee on the ground then we need to be pedantic about ball carrier plus team mate and a defender trying to pull ball carrier down, that is a maul ,there is no grey area, the big forwards need this to be enforced and it stops the ball carrier been driven by his team mate( like a battering ram), as they could end up with a "use it or lose it". The problem is coaches are shouting from the side" knee on the ground "and the referees are capitulating. I think to be safe, if it is a maul show the signal and shout it out loud, then all will know what is expected.

Decorily
17-10-16, 11:10
............... if it is a maul show the signal and shout it out loud, then all will know what is expected.

What signal is that?