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View Full Version : [Law] 1st half ends with foul play, how to restart 2nd half



Huck2Spit
30-09-16, 17:09
Got much protest from coaches and Captain following my decision to start the second half with a PK. But I think it was the right call?
We're past the 40-minute mark and play is still going on, Attacking side manages 10+/- phases of pick and roll rucking to score a try. As I whistle to award the try an angry defender comes in and kicks the body of the try scorer-- much pushing and guys running in ensues but nothing "dramatic" happens before they break apart.
Red Card issued to defender for the kicking and warnings to both captains for running in/ retaliation..... conversion is taken and I blow for half time.
After the break, I award the scoring team a PK at half way to start the second half. Everyone unsure why there is no kickoff and offending side had much to say about it.
Correct?

ctrainor
30-09-16, 18:09
Gut feeling foul play has occurred before the end of the half as the conversion wasn't taken so you could carry on with a penallty on half way. I'm probably wrong though!

leaguerefaus
30-09-16, 18:09
No idea from a law perspective, but I don't like it at all from a management perspective. Penalising a team 10mins after something has happened (when they've probably only just calmed down from the RC) is just asking for trouble.

chbg
30-09-16, 19:09
You need to determine which o fthe two Laws applies:

5.7(e) If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.

or

10.4 (n) Misconduct while the ball is out of play. A player, must not, while the ball is out of play, commit any misconduct, or obstruct or in any way interfere with an opponent.

Sanction: Penalty kick

The sanction is the same as for sections 10.4 (a)-(m) except that the penalty kick is awarded at the place where play would restart.

I believe that I would have done what you did, but it sounds as if you did not communicate it immediately after the offence. When talking to both captains you should have told them how you would be starting the 2nd Half.

The follow-up question is what would you do if the same cirumstance occurred after full-time is up? Is the match over (except for the conversion), or does it continue with a PK re-start on halfway?

Again I feel that time is up at the point that the try is scored, less for the conversion. There would not be a re-start and therefore there cannot be "a place where play would re-start".

ChrisR
30-09-16, 20:09
The half ended when the try was scored. Restarting the 2nd half with a PK is correct (see 10.4(n) above) but as chbg said: Indicate that at the time you address the RC. If this occurred at full time then the try would still end the match and there wouldn't be a PK.

pwhaling
30-09-16, 21:09
5.7 e)
If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead. The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an option to the non-infringing team, drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick at goal. If a scrum has to be reset, the scrum has not been completed. If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.

Huck2Spit
30-09-16, 21:09
Don't disagree that it could have been addressed at time of RC, however, had to think about this one for a bit.
I did call both captains after half time to make sure they had spoken with the teams, then explained there was a foul play penalty when ball was out of play and it is going to be awarded now to restart the game.

crossref
30-09-16, 21:09
I think this is a great question!
I think that you were completely correct in Law.
I think that practically speaking you also had the option to restart the half normally... Which to do depended on the mood of game

Christy
30-09-16, 22:09
We were advised of this at a society meeting few weeks ago .
Start 2nd half with a penalty .
But if it was in 2nd half , same situation ,try scored after 80 mins ,,tight score ,,
Im not sure of that out come ..
Surely game not over & restart penalty again ????

didds
01-10-16, 00:10
Gut feeling foul play has occurred before the end of the half as the conversion wasn't taken so you could carry on with a penallty on half way. I'm probably wrong though!


sound s right to me.

here is an example of a potential "10 point try". Or even a 14 point try...

try+conversion+PK on centre spot... next dead ball (sans PK!) = half time.

didds

didds
01-10-16, 00:10
We were advised of this at a society meeting few weeks ago .
Start 2nd half with a penalty .
But if it was in 2nd half , same situation ,try scored after 80 mins ,,tight score ,,
Im not sure of that out come ..
Surely game not over & restart penalty again ????


there's the rub. If you take the PK in the 2nd half, what would you have done if this has been a score+silliness in the 2nd half on full time?

shrug and say to the agresssed team "ask your ref for a PK at the start of your game next week?".

didds

Pegleg
01-10-16, 07:10
Game management.

winchesterref
01-10-16, 21:10
Game management.

Doesn't really help answer the question; some things you can't "manage out".

I'd have restarted with a penalty at the end of the first half, rather than the beginning of the second, for the same reason that if it happens at the end of the game I can't start next week with a penalty. Foul play happened in the first half, foul play is penalised in the first half.

chbg
01-10-16, 23:10
If the foul play occurs as the conversion is taken in this scenario i.e. when the Try was scored after time was up? A defender charging down the kick deliberately carries straight on into the kicker. Doess it matter whether the ball went over the cross-bar or not before the foul play occurred? Or does it depend on when you blew your whistle to award the conversion, or end the game?

If the foul play (e.g. assault) occurs as the teams come together to (otherwise) shake hands? Or a player verbally abuses you after the conversion? But before you blew your final whistle?

The line has to be drawn somewhere. Where do you draw it?

I draw it when normal time would have finished, i.e. on the scoring of the try. Other than the converrsion, there should then be no more opportunity to score. Anything else happens outside game time.

Mind you, I would not be afraid of using the RC at a lower threshold to ensure that the infringer and team were penalised for their future games.

DocY
03-10-16, 08:10
For me, I'd have the penalty straight away and end the half at the next stoppage.

Firstly, as others have said, if the second half ended in such a way the offence would go unpunished.

Secondly, from a management point of view - you deal with the situation there and then, far better than waiting up to 10 minutes when half the players and all the supporters will have forgotten.

And thirdly, I think that it's a restart on half way is obscuring things a bit. Say a situation similar to the OP's happens, but where the ball is in touch. I don't think there'd be any question that you restart with a 15m penalty and continue the half.

DocY
03-10-16, 11:10
If the foul play occurs as the conversion is taken in this scenario i.e. when the Try was scored after time was up? A defender charging down the kick deliberately carries straight on into the kicker. Doess it matter whether the ball went over the cross-bar or not before the foul play occurred? Or does it depend on when you blew your whistle to award the conversion, or end the game?

If the foul play (e.g. assault) occurs as the teams come together to (otherwise) shake hands? Or a player verbally abuses you after the conversion? But before you blew your final whistle?

The line has to be drawn somewhere. Where do you draw it?

I draw it when normal time would have finished, i.e. on the scoring of the try. Other than the converrsion, there should then be no more opportunity to score. Anything else happens outside game time.

Mind you, I would not be afraid of using the RC at a lower threshold to ensure that the infringer and team were penalised for their future games.

I don't think a hard and fast rule is always the best approach, but as a rule of thumb, I'd go for the final whistle. I certainly don't think the scoring of the try should be the end - if the OP's situation happened at the end of the second half I think you'd be remiss not to penalise it.
Likewise with the late charging the kicker situation, regardless of where the ball is.

But going to the example of a player verbally abusing you - I'd probably consider that to be after the game, even if I'd not blown my whistle, and raise a code of conduct. I think that would be a better way of managing that particular scenario, though I expect there are referees who would go for the penalty.

ChrisR
03-10-16, 11:10
For me, I'd have the penalty straight away and end the half at the next stoppage.

I could buy that but as it's a 'restart', as well as a penalty, can they kick directly to touch and claim the lineout?

OB..
03-10-16, 11:10
I agree that in Equity the PK should be taken after the conversion. Is there enough ambiguity in the law to allow that?

5.7 (e)If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead. The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an option to the non-infringing team, drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick at goal. If a scrum has to be reset, the scrum has not been completed. If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.
(f)If time expires after a try has been scored the referee allows time for the conversion kick to be taken.
When a try is scored, we normally consider the ball to be dead (not even zombie) when the conversion is taken, but Law 5 does not actually say that. The highlighted parts suggest time does not expire until after the conversion, and the Definition of "Dead" says "after a conversion has been taken." Since the offence occurred before that, then perhaps play can technically continue.

Law 13 does not define the start of each half as a restart kick (I think Law 13 is full of holes on this point anyway). However we normally restart play after a score with a restart kick from the centre, so that seems to be the best thing to do.

I would not criticise a referee for taking what seems to be the equitable line and restarting with a PK at the centre before ending the half. However I would note it as a tricky point of law in my report.

Notice that restarting with a PK means it can legally be kicked straight into touch to end the half/game.

DocY
03-10-16, 11:10
For me, I'd have the penalty straight away and end the half at the next stoppage.

I could buy that but as it's a 'restart', as well as a penalty, can they kick directly to touch and claim the lineout?

I think that'd depend on which hemisphere you're in! We're still playing the "is there time for the lineout?" rules (as far as I know, anyway!), so a kick into touch would end the half, but if you're saying the lineout is part of the penalty it'd be different.

crossref
03-10-16, 11:10
Notice that restarting with a PK means it can legally be kicked straight into touch to end the half/game.

This is an important point, and means we need to bring some pragmatism into the decision. If the team that will be taking the PK are going to do just that , then I don't really see the point of bringing everyone into formation and going through the motions, just so that can happen.

On the other hand, if it's the end of the second half, and there are four points in it, and the PK is going to go to the losing team, then things look a lot tastier...

DocY
03-10-16, 12:10
I agree that in Equity the PK should be taken after the conversion. Is there enough ambiguity in the law to allow that?


I think so. Looking at 10.4 (n)
... the penalty kick is awarded at the place where play would restart

Doesn't say anything about when it should happen.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
03-10-16, 12:10
I had a "similar" incident about 2 years ago. I'd never though much about it until I saw this thread.

Gold v Red.

Red are defending and in possession. They are attempting to run it out from their own 22 as HT approaches (quickly). Red make a cat's arse of it and the ball is dropped and goes into touch. I blow for HT as Red 14 (he of the shit hands) attempts to stop Gold 11 from taking a QT. The ball is forgotten as the two start grappling. I blow again (louder) as Red 14 lets go a roundhouse right that Rocky Marciano would have proud off - straight on the nose end of Gold 11.

After the two are separated (easily as turns out as Gold 11 is on the floor holding his nose) I RC Red 14. After Red 14 is dispatched. I tell both Captains I'd blown for HT prior to Marciano v Walcott III. Neither the captains nor I were smart enough to ask/realise we perhaps should have started the 2nd half with a Gold PK.

3470

SimonSmith
03-10-16, 13:10
This is an important point, and means we need to bring some pragmatism into the decision. If the team that will be taking the PK are going to do just that , then I don't really see the point of bringing everyone into formation and going through the motions, just so that can happen.

"Effing ref. Can't believe he missed that punch. Effing useless. How can he ignore that?!" is not the sort of discussion you want to generate on the simple premise of expediency.

See foul play -> address foul play.

DocY
03-10-16, 13:10
"Effing ref. Can't believe he missed that punch. Effing useless. How can he ignore that?!" is not the sort of discussion you want to generate on the simple premise of expediency.

See foul play -> address foul play.

I see it more as "Captains and [miscreant], here please! You punched one of their players, you're off. Non-offending (assuming he's winning) captain, it's a penalty to you on half way, but if you're going to kick it straight out I'll end the game now."

crossref
03-10-16, 14:10
"Effing ref. Can't believe he missed that punch. Effing useless. How can he ignore that?!" is not the sort of discussion you want to generate on the simple premise of expediency.

See foul play -> address foul play.

I have carded him, of course.

What I am saying is : I don't see the point on insisting that they all get back to the half way line, and line into formation for a PK, if all that's going to happen is that they are going to kick it off the pitch again to end the game.

didds
03-10-16, 14:10
thing is - and i'm playing devils advocate here maybe - if he IS going to kick it out, but then doesn't actually make touch, that deprives the opposition of the kicker (that fluffed the kick) from then catching the ball and counter attacking with it.

Now, I hear the calls about now the offending team benefit - but that's no different from any other PK taken to touch during a game that is fluffed.

Meanwhile, for me, its whether time has been blown or not. If the silliness occurs before that whistle, notwithstanding evenrything about the ball being dead after a try etc, then you can sell the PK in the same half. If the whistle had blowen for ytime 9whether half of ull) that;'s it... silliness aafter the HT whistle can start with a PK on half way at the start of the 2nd half, but if its full time then that's it, tough. Them's the breaks.

I can't support it in law, it just seems an easy way to "measure" it.

didds

DocY
03-10-16, 15:10
thing is - and i'm playing devils advocate here maybe - if he IS going to kick it out, but then doesn't actually make touch, that deprives the opposition of the kicker (that fluffed the kick) from then catching the ball and counter attacking with it.


That's true, but I guess it depends if you think bringing all the players back to half way is worth the chance of that happening.

Camquin
03-10-16, 17:10
It is a penalty - the kicker can retreat as far as he wants - so he could retreat to just inside the dead ball line and kick it backwards.

So the ball could be placed such that if it moves it would touch the dead ball line - the offending team would be awarded a 5m attacking scrum but as it is no-side we will head to the changing room.
If for any reason the ball does not move the offending team would be awarded a 5m attacking scrum but as it is no-side we will head to the changing room.

The offending team must stay ten metres behind the mark - so 70m away on a decent pitch.
In fact the closest the opposition could be for any penalty taken this way is 20m even if the mark is 5m from goal and it is a 5m dead ball area.

So I see no reason why a captain should not simply have the option of no-side in these circumstances.