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View Full Version : Consequences of egregious refereeing errors at the pro level (in Wales)



Dixie
31-10-16, 13:10
Over the weekend, the referee of the Blues v Scarlets game made a horrendous error, YC-ing a player who was held back and dragged to ground while chasing a kick ahead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVh-jmw9yts

Ignoring the irony that it was his own brother playing for the oppo who held him back, how would we expect a pro ref (or at least, the ref of a pro game) to react to the player's (predictable and rarely reliable) protestations of innocence? And if the decision (as here) was not to avail himself of a replay (are they even available in the Pro 12), what should be the consequences for the ref concerned?

Not Kurt Weaver
31-10-16, 13:10
Nothing

talbazar
31-10-16, 14:10
Dixie,

A tough one indeed, but unfortunately, it most probably depends on what the ref has seen, what the players says, how the players react. PlayerS because the way others react can probably tell you as much...


In that particular case, I wouldn't be surprised if:
- On one hand the ref saw "something" during the first contact between Red 6 and Blue 9 (from the video it kinda looks like Red 6 is grabbing Blue 9's shorts)
- On the other hand, the ref thought Red 6's complaint was about the infringement he saw not deserving that "hard sanction"

As such, I actually doubt the ref even doubted himself in this particular case.

Now, more in a "general" view, I wouldn't mind the ref, when -he genuinely has a doubt- to call for time out and check with his AR quickly first or even TMO (though that might not be protocol at all).
After all, all we want as referees is "the right outcome", don't we?

Cheers,
Pierre.

Not Kurt Weaver
31-10-16, 15:10
Gents,

T bazar is correct. PMwoB is what ref saw and infraction that occurred first.

I've never seen offsetting penalties (except for retaliation). He had to call first.

T bazar is looking at situation fairly with open mind. I'll tell you the ref got it correct. There should be no contact other than shoulder to shoulder when chasing a ball.

didds
31-10-16, 16:10
which offense is clear and obvious?

6 on 9?

or his own brother on 6?

didds

DocY
31-10-16, 16:10
how would we expect a pro ref (or at least, the ref of a pro game) to react to the player's (predictable and rarely reliable) protestations of innocence?

Given almost every card ever issued was met with a well practised 'innocent face', nothing.

As talblazar says, if he wasn't at all unsure, why check? It would have been good if the TMO could have said "Are you sure you don't want to watch a replay of that?" but there you go - maybe he wasn't sure how to make sure that question wasn't broadcast!

Pegleg
31-10-16, 17:10
The ref was truley shocking throughout the game. He even managed to tell players in a Maul to release! Still that is what we are used to in the pro 12.

We have TMOs most of the time but not all. That along with the situation a few weeks ago when Dublin's "finest" refereed Cardiff and Leinster. The league is generally regarded as a joke.

DocY
31-10-16, 17:10
The ref was truley shocking throughout the game. He even managed to tell players in a Maul to release! Still that is what we are used to in the pro 12.


TBH I thought he was okay for the first 30 minutes, aside from excessive use of the TMO, but that series of scrums (and the cause of the first scrum) was pretty bad and he didn't really recover from that.

Ian_Cook
31-10-16, 20:10
I have not seen the whole match but I have seen an extended 30 min highlights package on Sky.

The decision in the OP really takes the cake; it was a shocker. Not only was it the wrong decision to award a PK against Red, it should never have been a YC to the Red player. While you could argue that he tugged at the first Blue player's shorts, the second Blue player tackled him without the ball... that is not just Foul Play, its Dangerous Play and it should have taken precedence for punishment.

Now If that had been his only mistake, he could perhaps have been forgiven, but it wasn't all he did wrong. This referee was bloody awful TBH, way out of his depth, make=ing severl clear errors, a couple of which showed a gap in his Law knowledge around Law 17.

► He called Maul a few times when the ball carrier was being held up on his own by two opponents, i.e. no team-mate of the ball carrier bound on!!

► At one collapsed Maul (which actually was a Maul this time - he called it) he told the ball carrier to release. WTF?

If this referee were in Super Rugby or NPC, he would have some serious questions to answer, and would probably be stood down for a month at least. He would also be required to undergo some remedial Law knowledge training, particularly around the Maul Laws.

Is this indicative of the general standard of refereeing in the Pro12?

Pegleg
31-10-16, 22:10
I have not seen the whole match but I have seen an extended 30 min highlights package on Sky.

The decision in the OP really takes the cake; it was a shocker. Not only was it the wrong decision to award a PK against Red, it should never have been a YC to the Red player. While you could argue that he tugged at the first Blue player's shorts, the second Blue player tackled him without the ball... that is not just Foul Play, its Dangerous Play and it should have taken precedence for punishment.

Now If that had been his only mistake, he could perhaps have been forgiven, but it wasn't all he did wrong. This referee was bloody awful TBH, way out of his depth, making several clear errors, a couple of which showed a gap in his Law knowledge around Law 17.

► He called Maul a few times when the ball carrier was being held up on his own by two opponents, i.e. no team-mate of the ball carrier bound on!!

► At one collapsed Maul (which actually was a Maul this time - he called it) he told the ball carrier to release. WTF?

If this referee were in Super Rugby or NPC, he would have some serious questions to answer, and would probably be stood down for a month at least. He would also be required to undergo some remedial Law knowledge training, particularly around the Maul Laws.

Is this indicative of the general standard of refereeing in the Pro12?


He was the worst for a long time but certainly we have had to suffer a lot of stuff nearly as bad. We all have nightmares after enduring the Changalang brothers in the past.

Once he lost it (early doors for me) it just unravelled rapidly and by the end it would have been a joke had it not been both a league game and a derby match. It could easily turned nasty on him.

beckett50
01-11-16, 21:11
I was astounded that he neither referred it to the TMO, or that one of the ARs suggested that he refer the call to the TMO.

Paule23
04-11-16, 10:11
I'm a little concerned at all the severe criticism being given to Pro 12 referees here. It is very easy with the beauty of hindsight, TV replays etc to second guess a referee decision. But surely everyone on this forum is aware of how difficult the game is to referee, and how a referee only gets one look from one angle prior to making a decision, whilst the game goes on.

Yes these are the top referees in the country, but they are human, will make mistakes, and will also make good decisions based on what they see, which might turn out to be incorrect with the beauty of 14 television angles and slow mo replays (Craig Joubert being a good example here).

How about we show some solidarity with fellow referees? Nothing wrong with highlighting or debating mistakes, but to say referees are crap or poor and offering lots of criticism is unjustified in my view.

Ian_Cook
04-11-16, 11:11
I'm a little concerned at all the severe criticism being given to Pro 12 referees here. It is very easy with the beauty of hindsight, TV replays etc to second guess a referee decision. But surely everyone on this forum is aware of how difficult the game is to referee, and how a referee only gets one look from one angle prior to making a decision, whilst the game goes on.

Yes these are the top referees in the country, but they are human, will make mistakes, and will also make good decisions based on what they see, which might turn out to be incorrect with the beauty of 14 television angles and slow mo replays (Craig Joubert being a good example here).

How about we show some solidarity with fellow referees? Nothing wrong with highlighting or debating mistakes, but to say referees are crap or poor and offering lots of criticism is unjustified in my view.


Craig Joubert had to make a decision based on what he saw, and importantly, he had no option available to him to go to the TMO

The referee under discussion did have that option open to him, and astonishingly, he chose not to. That was his mistake.

DocY
04-11-16, 13:11
I'm a little concerned at all the severe criticism being given to Pro 12 referees here. It is very easy with the beauty of hindsight, TV replays etc to second guess a referee decision. But surely everyone on this forum is aware of how difficult the game is to referee, and how a referee only gets one look from one angle prior to making a decision, whilst the game goes on.

Yes these are the top referees in the country, but they are human, will make mistakes, and will also make good decisions based on what they see, which might turn out to be incorrect with the beauty of 14 television angles and slow mo replays (Craig Joubert being a good example here).

How about we show some solidarity with fellow referees? Nothing wrong with highlighting or debating mistakes, but to say referees are crap or poor and offering lots of criticism is unjustified in my view.

I think there is a lot of merit in discussing refereeing mistakes and how they can be avoided (that's the basis for almost every society meeting). It's unfortunate that we don't have much discussion about good decisions (i.e. decisions that you'd expect a referee to get wrong, but he actually gets right - there was actually one shortly after the incident in question). I don't like to speculate on what that says about us.

When we get decisions like this, though, it's difficult not to be critical, but as long as it's constructive and doesn't devolve into ad hominen attacks or generalities I don't think there's a huge problem with it.

Pegleg
04-11-16, 15:11
I'm a little concerned at all the severe criticism being given to Pro 12 referees here. It is very easy with the beauty of hindsight, TV replays etc to second guess a referee decision. But surely everyone on this forum is aware of how difficult the game is to referee, and how a referee only gets one look from one angle prior to making a decision, whilst the game goes on.

Yes these are the top referees in the country, but they are human, will make mistakes, and will also make good decisions based on what they see, which might turn out to be incorrect with the beauty of 14 television angles and slow mo replays (Craig Joubert being a good example here).

How about we show some solidarity with fellow referees? Nothing wrong with highlighting or debating mistakes, but to say referees are crap or poor and offering lots of criticism is unjustified in my view.

Indeed we all make mistakes. However, He has ARs & TMO with many camera angles to help him. He chose not to use that help. Also we are not pubicly shaming him this is a REFEREES' forum. His "pain" may be our gain.

There is a wider point. Referees at the elite end of the game are part of the industry. Poor referee displays can cause players and coaches etc to lose their jobs. Relegation / missing out of a tournament etc could be critical. So we are open to critisism. Players who play badly can lose their international careers as can coaches. Why not the referee as well?

ChrisR
04-11-16, 15:11
"...... we are not pubicly shaming him ...."

Pegleg
04-11-16, 15:11
Ouch. Should have read it again befor "sending". No double someone will go nuts over it.

Dixie
04-11-16, 16:11
It's unfortunate that we don't have much discussion about good decisions (i.e. decisions that you'd expect a referee to get wrong, but he actually gets right - there was actually one shortly after the incident in question). I don't like to speculate on what that says about us. I think it validates our common sense. Consider a ruck where the ball comes out and play continues. The ref has made myriad good decisions there to enable play to continue without the whistle going. Was the tackle OK? Did the tackler release? Did the ball carrier release? Did the arriving players come through the gate? Was anyone materially offside? Are we comfortable with the extent of the #9 digging the ball out? Was the pass forward?

We could indeed debate each ruck in those terms - but would it add anything of value?

DocY
04-11-16, 16:11
"...... we are not pubicly shaming him ...."


Now that's an unwelcome image!

DocY
04-11-16, 16:11
I think it validates our common sense. Consider a ruck where the ball comes out and play continues. The ref has made myriad good decisions there to enable play to continue without the whistle going. Was the tackle OK? Did the tackler release? Did the ball carrier release? Did the arriving players come through the gate? Was anyone materially offside? Are we comfortable with the extent of the #9 digging the ball out? Was the pass forward?

We could indeed debate each ruck in those terms - but would it add anything of value?

Maybe I should have said 'exceptionally good' decisions - I agree that the above would get very tedious - but those when you think "he obviously got that wrong; oh no, fair play" are often quite interesting.

As an example, the same referee (after the YC incident) didn't penalise a tackler when he'd made the tackle, ball placed, ruck hadn't formed (though attacking players were in position as if it had), so the tackler got up and took the ball. There were lots of players around and it just looked wrong before the slow motion replay showed the referee to be right.

I frequently see penalties in such situations, but it would be useful to analyse times it was done right to see why they were. Typically, I can't find a clip of it.

ChrisR
04-11-16, 19:11
Ouch. Should have read it again befor "sending". No double someone will go nuts over it.

I see what you did there. He doesn't deserve to be shamed for getting such a hairy situation wrong.

Mandrason
14-11-16, 23:11
The referee in the OP did referee the Germany vs. Uruguay test match and did a very good job, so he recovered from the bad performance at least ;)