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View Full Version : knock on? really?



didds
14-11-16, 18:11
We have discussed in the past the actions of a player putting the ball onto a heel such that it gets "chipped" over his head towards the oppo DBL. Its often (though not universally) been called as a knock on.

How about this then?

http://www.rugbyonslaught.com/2016/11/player-summons-spirit-of-bod-to-score.html


(run the video!)



Its also here on facebook for those with accounts (ot seems the permissions are set to public)
https://www.facebook.com/alan.knuckey/videos/10155434203483294/

didds

Guyseep
14-11-16, 20:11
Why would this be called a knock on?! It in no way meets any of the qualifications of a knock on.
He drops/releases the ball behind himself, and kicks it with his heel forward.

If we are ok with a regular kick of the ball from the hand or a drop kick(where the ball carrier actually releases the ball forward and in front of them) then surely this example can't be deemed a knock on.

It's a legal kick forward - end of discussion.

thepercy
14-11-16, 21:11
Why would this be called a knock on?! It in no way meets any of the qualifications of a knock on.
He drops/releases the ball behind himself, and kicks it with his heel forward.

If we are ok with a regular kick of the ball from the hand or a drop kick(where the ball carrier actually releases the ball forward and in front of them) then surely this example can't be deemed a knock on.

It's a legal kick forward - end of discussion.

Kick: (http://laws.worldrugby.org/?search=Kick) A kick is made by hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee; a kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.

Guyseep
14-11-16, 21:11
Kick: (http://laws.worldrugby.org/?search=Kick) A kick is made by hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee; a kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.

I still don't know how you classify that as a knock on.
And the stipulation that a kick can't be from the heel, despite being in law, has no logic to it.
I would dare any ref to call that a knock on or apply any other sanction for being hit with a heel, and try to walk off the pitch without being laughed at.

Not Kurt Weaver
14-11-16, 22:11
[QUOTE=Guyseep;322744
And the stipulation that a kick can't be from the heel, despite being in law, has no logic to it.
[/QUOTE]

Well uh, players in ruck or scrum heel the ball back to SH. So if it were considered a kick to heel, rucking or scrum teammates fore of player heeling would be offside and obstructing.

Guyseep
14-11-16, 22:11
Well uh, players in ruck or scrum heel the ball back to SH. So if it were considered a kick to heel, rucking or scrum teammates fore of player heeling would be offside and obstructing.

Again I would be floored if a heel was not considered a kick and someone heeled the ball back and a ref decided to call a penalty based on the situation described above.

It's just completely illogical. How could hitting the ball deliberately with your foot (any part of your foot) not be considered a kick?!

The umpire
14-11-16, 22:11
Kick: (http://laws.worldrugby.org/?search=Kick) A kick is made by hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee; a kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.

That is the definition of a "formal" kick, e.g. kick off, penalty, etc, to stop the "bounce it on the knee and run away" things that used to happen. A knock on has to come off the hand or arm, in theory, so we would judge someone who threw it up and headed it forward to have knocked on, or thrown forward deliberately. This just seems to be cleverer way around that problem.

didds
15-11-16, 00:11
Kick: (http://laws.worldrugby.org/?search=Kick) A kick is made by hitting the ball with any part of the leg or foot, except the heel, from the toe to the knee but not including the knee; a kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand, or along the ground.

law number?

The only one I could find was 21.3(a) [see my other thread] - which is in the penalty and free kicks section. Which are not in open play.

didds

SimonSmith
15-11-16, 01:11
It's in definitions

didds
15-11-16, 01:11
Why would this be called a knock on?! It in no way meets any of the qualifications of a knock on.
He drops/releases the ball behind himself, and kicks it with his heel forward.

If we are ok with a regular kick of the ball from the hand or a drop kick(where the ball carrier actually releases the ball forward and in front of them) then surely this example can't be deemed a knock on.

It's a legal kick forward - end of discussion.

I totally agree Guysdep... but in previous discussions some have claimed such an a knock -on... (as it is in this video it is clear that the ball never goes forward off the hand)

its usually lumped in with chips off the knee which get called forward, and even deliberate head buts (never seen one!) despite the clear possibility that the ball can be propelled backwards onto the knee or head. and as you've identified the totally accepted possible throw forward to kick normally..

didds

Pinky
15-11-16, 01:11
Knock on does not have to be knocked by hand or arm as definition includes losing possession of the ball and it going forward without being re-gathered. So for me the backheel would have to be caught by the ball carrier before it hits the ground otherwise it dies fall within the definition of a KO and not be regarded as a kick.

didds
15-11-16, 02:11
but I can throw the ball forward onto my foot and that's Ok then?

didds

didds
15-11-16, 02:11
It's in definitions

sorry Simon... definitions of law 21?

didds

The Fat
15-11-16, 08:11
sorry Simon... definitions of law 21?

didds

No, the proper DEFINITIONS section at the front of the hard copy and I think under the "More" tab in the online version.

FlipFlop
15-11-16, 11:11
The ball leaves the hands backwards, so not a knock on.

After that it doesn't matter if it is a kick or not, there is nothing to say it is illegal. Personally I don't think it is a kick, but I don't care. The ball left the hands backwards, it is not a knock on, we play on.

Phil E
15-11-16, 12:11
Not a kick.
Not a knock on.
Play on.

Any other decision would lose you every ounce of credibility you might have.