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CrouchTPEngage
14-01-17, 21:01
9 mins into this Leicester v racing 92 match.
Leicester player clearly moves his hands and arms out of the way so as to avoid a knock on when gathering a bobbling ball. Ref awards a knock on against him and explains the decision as " it came of your chest".
I was always on the understanding that it had to hit your arms or hands for a knock on?

Rushforth
14-01-17, 21:01
You are not wrong. Amazing that the ref in question said that. Perfectly ok if there is a suspicion of a hand/arm contact and the whistle goes, in my view.

But a former international coach (here in NL) insisted on this incorrect interpretation 20 or more years ago, and the next day I decided that when I retired as a player I would become a referee.

Balones
14-01-17, 21:01
I must admit that I was speechless that a referee at this level could make such a decision and make such a comment.

Taff
14-01-17, 22:01
... I was always on the understanding that it had to hit your arms or hands for a knock on?

DEFINITION: KNOCK-ON: A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

Christy
14-01-17, 22:01
I didnt see the game .
You say ball was bobbing along and player moved his hands / arms to allow a knock on to not happen ?.
But surely unless ball comes off his head , it is effectively played & lost forward . Off his chest

For me , play advantage if permissable .
If none gained , scrum .

Taff
14-01-17, 22:01
I didnt see the game. You say ball was bobbing along and player moved his hands / arms to allow a knock on to not happen? But surely unless ball comes off his head , it is effectively played & lost forward . Off his chest. For me , play advantage if permissable. If none gained , scrum .
The ball was bouncing low towards the Leicester player. Rather than risk trying to catch it, he spread his arms out wide to make it obvious he wasn't going for it. The ball bounced up and forward off his chest - still with his arms spread wide.

Christy
14-01-17, 22:01
Ok , so what happened to the ball next ?,
If it hits the ground or another player 1st , who is in front
Its lost forward .
Scrum to opposition . ( am i thinking no body else agrees ) ???

Balones
14-01-17, 22:01
Ok , so what happened to the ball next ?,
If it hits the ground or another player 1st , who is in front
Its lost forward .
Scrum to opposition . ( am i thinking no body else agrees ) ???
He was not in possession of the ball so he did not lose it forward. He made no attempt to catch and the ball did not touch his hands or arms. Therefore no offence.

Christy
14-01-17, 22:01
Surely it would have to be scrum opposition .
Other wise you would see a trend of deliberate actions of players running out with just their chests trying to slap down balls .
Saying , sorry ref but it came off my chest .

We are not talking here of a player who was already on the floor are we ???? & a ball has come into contact with him .am i correct in thinking the player was on his feet and deliberately stopped a ball with his chest & didnt regather ball before ball hit ground or somebody else
If so , its lost forward , scrum oppositipn

Balones
14-01-17, 22:01
Surely it would have to be scrum opposition .
Other wise you would see a trend of deliberate actions of players running out with just their chests trying to slap down balls .
Saying , sorry ref but it came off my chest .

We are not talking here of a player who was already on the floor are we ???? & a ball has come into contact with him .am i correct in thinking the player was on his feet and deliberately stopped a ball with his chest & didnt regather ball before ball hit ground or somebody else
If so , its lost forward , scrum oppositipn

Please look at the definition of a knock on. The criteria was not met. You are correct if a player runs onto the ball and makes no attempt to catch and the ball does not touch his arms or hands then it is play on. Just as it would be if the player headed the ball forward. That is the law. You don't often see players do it because they are afraid the referee might miss the fact that there was no attempt to catch or might think that the ball did actually touch the hands/arms. At the same time referees don't often blow and allow the play to continue because they may not know the law or may try to play 'safe' since it may not be clear. In the case we are mentioning it was very very clear that there was no attempt to catch.

CrouchTPEngage
14-01-17, 22:01
So if something similar happens and he controls it with his legs or feet, is that a knock on too? I doubt it.
I actually thought it was good skill. He took the energy out of the ball with his (actually stomach) and then, when the ball had stopped bobbling, he used his hands to pick it up.
I would like to reward that good skill really.

Balones
14-01-17, 22:01
So if something similar happens and he controls it with his legs or feet, is that a knock on too? I doubt it.
I actually thought it was good skill. He took the energy out of the ball with his (actually stomach) and then, when the ball had stopped bobbling, he used his hands to pick it up.
I would like to reward that good skill really.
Yes, good awareness and skill by the player concerned. Not so much by the ref on this occasion. But then we all make mistakes and on this occasion it was a bit more high profile than most.

DocY
15-01-17, 00:01
The first post made it sound like what used to be called a rebound - so play on. But from CrouchTPEngage's post it sounds like he controlled it with his chest/stomach, so to play devil's advocate, he might have lost control of it and it went forwards (I didn't see it, BTW). I think you'd struggle to say he was obviously in possession in such a case, though.
But the referee saying "it came off your chest" sounds wrong. "You lost control of it forward", or "I thought it came off your hand/arm" are the only legal justifications for giving a knock on.

Balones
15-01-17, 00:01
The first post made it sound like what used to be called a rebound - so play on. But from CrouchTPEngage's post it sounds like he controlled it with his chest/stomach, so to play devil's advocate, he might have lost control of it and it went forwards (I didn't see it, BTW). I think you'd struggle to say he was obviously in possession in such a case, though.
But the referee saying "it came off your chest" sounds wrong. "You lost control of it forward", or "I thought it came off your hand/arm" are the only legal justifications for giving a knock on.
The ball came bouncing towards him and he stood on the spot and held his arms out to the side and allowed the ball to hit his chest and made no attempt to touch/catch it. It hit his chest, went to ground and then he bent down to pick it up. The ref was not unsighted since it happened in clear open space. You probably would have understood what had happened if you had been standing behind the player at the back of the stand! :)

P.S. Yes, it was a deliberate attempt to get the ball under controlled.

Not Kurt Weaver
15-01-17, 03:01
At bout nine minutes in video, not even close to his chest, absolute blunder, absolute blunder, absolute blunder. there is no other possible explanation


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpiW0-hL3j8

Blackberry
15-01-17, 10:01
Look at the players' reactions... or rather non-reactions. This is one of the reasons ..if not the main reason... that we teach youngsters to play rugby.

Look at the coverage, many players out there have realised the ref has made a mistake, but they man up, shut their mouths, and get on with playing the cards they have been dealt. This is a priceless life skill.

L'irlandais
15-01-17, 10:01
Ben Whitehouse (Wales) was the man in the middle. Suspect it's been pointed out to him by now.
Source (http://www.premiershiprugby.com/news/match-officials-for-this-weekends-european-rugby/)

Taff
15-01-17, 10:01
Look at the players' reactions... or rather non-reactions. This is one of the reasons ..if not the main reason... that we teach youngsters to play rugby. Look at the coverage, many players out there have realised the ref has made a mistake, but they man up, shut their mouths, and get on with playing the cards they have been dealt. This is a priceless life skill.
Either that, or the players weren't 100% sure of the law themselves, so thought it best to say nothing. :biggrin:

Balones
15-01-17, 11:01
What's more if the ref thought it was a knock on he should have given a penalty not a scrum since it was clearly deliberate!

didds
15-01-17, 11:01
9 mins into this Leicester v racing 92 match.
Leicester player clearly moves his hands and arms out of the way so as to avoid a knock on when gathering a bobbling ball. Ref awards a knock on against him and explains the decision as " it came of your chest".
I was always on the understanding that it had to hit your arms or hands for a knock on?


It does.



DEFINITION: KNOCK-ON12
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.


What an idiot. If you can't get something as fundamental as this right, what credibility do you have left?

didds

didds
15-01-17, 12:01
Scrum to opposition . ( am i thinking no body else agrees ) ???

You are correct in your thinking wrt me for sure.!

didds

didds
15-01-17, 12:01
Yes, good awareness and skill by the player concerned. Not so much by the ref on this occasion. But then we all make mistakes

This doesn't appear to have been a "mistake". This seems to be a gross error in - frankly very basic - law knowledge.



Ref awards a knock on against him and explains the decision as " it came of your chest".


didds

The Fat
15-01-17, 12:01
WOW!
Just watched it.
30 people on the field knew the Law but unfortunately, one didn't.
Ball actually hits the player in the stomach low down. Hands/arms nowhere near the ball.
Sad part is that Whitehouse had the opportunity to say something like, "I thought there was contact with the arm", but he doesn't as he clearly thinks that what just happened constitutes a knock-on. Oh dear.

didds
15-01-17, 12:01
At bout nine minutes in video, not even close to his chest, absolute blunder, absolute blunder, absolute blunder. there is no other possible explanation


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpiW0-hL3j8

No - its not a blunder. Its a gross error in law. A blunder suggests next time in the game if it happened again he may have not given it as a KO. With this belief in law he always would award a KO.

didds

didds
15-01-17, 12:01
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpiW0-hL3j8

https://youtu.be/JpiW0-hL3j8?t=531 should take you right there.

didds

leaguerefaus
15-01-17, 12:01
That's shocking. As I've said before, I'm willing to cop judgement errors at all levels of the game, but law errors? No. And on something so simple... Disgraceful.

OB..
15-01-17, 14:01
Christy - there have been many discussions about what constitutes a knock on when a player juggles the ball. Some have argued that if the last thing it touched was the player's chest, then it cannot be a knock-on. I believe the consensus is that once you make an effort to catch the ball, such minutiae are impossible to determine and therefore cannot be taken into account.

However I can see no justification whatsoever for arguing that knocking the ball forward when your arms are clearly nowhere near is an offence, whether the ball comes off your head or your chest. I would mark any such decision as a law error, and expect to be supported in that.

Christy
15-01-17, 18:01
Ok i watched the vidio.
I had a game last week where a ball come off opposition head , i allowed play to continue .
Got a bit of knock on ref from the crowd , but i stuck to my guns & played on .

The vidio was interesting to watch , as its not an every day occurance you see it .
I still feel player deliberately played ball forward off his stomach , & for me it was lost forward .

However i am happy to be taught that my understanding is incorrect .
And through others knowledge , im happy to learn from this .
Thanks all ,
Hopefully i wont see it in any of my matches .
But if i do , i will play on

Pegleg
15-01-17, 19:01
I didnt see the game .
You say ball was bobbing along and player moved his hands / arms to allow a knock on to not happen ?.
But surely unless ball comes off his head , it is effectively played & lost forward . Off his chest

For me , play advantage if permissable .
If none gained , scrum .



DEFINITION: KNOCK-ON][/B]: A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.


I didnt see the game .
You say ball was bobbing along and player moved his hands / arms to allow a knock on to not happen ?.
But surely unless ball comes off his head , it is effectively played & lost forward . Off his chest

For me , play advantage if permissable .
If none gained , scrum



DEFINITION: KNOCK-ON: A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.


The player did not have possession to lose and the bits already highlighted for you makes it quite clear that only when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, can it be deemed a knock on.

DocY
16-01-17, 10:01
Ok i watched the vidio.
I had a game last week where a ball come off opposition head , i allowed play to continue .
Got a bit of knock on ref from the crowd , but i stuck to my guns & played on .


If (when) it happens again, shout something like "off his head, play on!" and make it loud enough for the crowd to hear. If they know why you've made a decision they get on your back far less.