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BCH24
16-01-17, 22:01
May I have your views on this please?

U14 school match.

Blue is attacking and are five metres out from Red try line.

Red turnover the ball, and pass it back, over the try line towards the dead ball line. Red kick to clear their lines. Most of red are in front of the kicker. Blue touch the ball in flight, it balloons up and is coming down, inside the 22, about 15 metres from the try Line.

Blue player reaches up to try and catch the ball above his head as it falls, only to parry it backwards over his head straight into the arms of the very lazy Red prop wandering back. The Red prop instinctively catches it as he can't react quick enough to do anything else.

is Red prop onside or offside?

Dickie E
16-01-17, 23:01
Onside. The touch in flight has put him onside. We would consider that a charge-down (albeit a fairly unsuccessful one).

Similar (but better) happened to me years ago back in my playing days (I was not a very good player).

Play had gone deep into opponents' territory and I found myself in their in-goal. Opponents kicked ball back up to halfway-ish and one of my team-mates caught the ball and kicked it back. Bugger me if it wasn't touched in flight by one of their players and ball fell nicely into my arms for a try :)

The Fat
16-01-17, 23:01
Was the prop offside from a previous ruck?
Discuss.

Taff
16-01-17, 23:01
Red prop was played onside when the ball was "intentionally touched" / touched in flight by Blue.

11.3 Being put onside by opponents
In general play, there are three ways by which an offside player can be put onside by an action of the opposing team. These three ways do not apply to a player who is offside under the 10-Metre Law.
(a) Runs 5 metres with ball. When an opponent carrying the ball runs 5 metres, the offside player is put onside.
(b) Kicks or passes. When an opponent kicks or passes the ball, the offside player is put onside.
(c) Intentionally touches ball. When an opponent intentionally touches the ball but does not catch it, the offside player is put onside.
The problem you will get when this or ricochets happen is that everything happens bloody fast; so you need to get it clear in your own head. Personally I find it useful to verbalise it (eg "Touched in flight. Red all onside") but some don't like it. It's mainly for my own benefit, but if the players benefit as well ... everyone's a winner. :biggrin:

didds
17-01-17, 00:01
Just for clarity though, touching in flight doesn't "save" the 10m law?

didds

Ian_Cook
17-01-17, 01:01
Just for clarity though, touching in flight doesn't "save" the 10m law?

didds



Yes and no

LAW 11.4 OFFSIDE UNDER THE 10M LAW
(f) The 10-metre Law does not apply when a player kicks the ball, and an opponent charges
down the kick, and a team-mate of the kicker who was in front of the imaginary 10-metre
line across the field then plays the ball. The opponent was not ‘waiting to play the ball’ and
the team-mate is onside. The 10-metre Law applies if the ball touches or is played by an
opponent but is not charged down.

If the ball is touched as part of a charge down, then all members of the kicking team are onside wherever they are.

Dickie E
17-01-17, 01:01
If the ball is touched as part of a charge down, then all members of the kicking team are onside wherever they are.

Cue 10 million post thread on what the difference is between a charge down and a non-charge down :)

Ian_Cook
17-01-17, 01:01
Cue 10 million post thread on what the difference is between a charge down and a non-charge down :)

Well, my old mentor at CRFU (Laurie Mahoney) had the best answer to that I have ever heard

"If the player who made contact with the ball wasn't attempting to prevent or block the kicker from kicking, then it wasn't a charge down"

He also used to say

"if the player who touched the ball was reacting to the flight of the ball and not the action of the kicker, then it wasn't a charge down"

Paule23
17-01-17, 08:01
Well, my old mentor at CRFU (Laurie Mahoney) had the best answer to that I have ever heard

"If the player who made contact with the ball wasn't attempting to prevent or block the kicker from kicking, then it wasn't a charge down"

He also used to say

"if the player who touched the ball was reacting to the flight of the ball and not the action of the kicker, then it wasn't a charge down"


This is very good, but I'd add a charge down results in the ball going towards the kickers goal line, a ball touched or unsuccessfully charged down​ may change direction but will continue away from the kickers goal line.

DocY
17-01-17, 10:01
Could he have been loitering?

didds
17-01-17, 10:01
Could he have been loitering?

That is what I was meaning when I enquired about the 10m law , but Ian explained


If the ball is touched as part of a charge down, then all members of the kicking team are onside wherever they are

So a kick, touched in flight by an opponent that continues towards the oppo DBL can be played by a kicker's teammate even if he is standing right beside the opponent that wold otherwise have caught it (and was standing there initially etc etc ).

I confess until ian corrected me I was pretty sure this was still offside under the 10m law.

didds

Dickie E
17-01-17, 10:01
9,999,996 to go ! :pepper:

crossref
17-01-17, 10:01
Was the prop offside from a previous ruck?
Discuss.

this is the bit that concerns me --

if there is a ruck, and a red prop is 20m offside (having a breather,say)
- red #9 executes a box kick
- does a touch from blue really put the prop onside ? I don't think so.

Ian_Cook
17-01-17, 10:01
This is very good, but I'd add a charge down results in the ball going towards the kickers goal line, a ball touched or unsuccessfully charged down​ may change direction but will continue away from the kickers goal line.

Nope.

There is no Law that imposes any restriction about the direction the ball travels after it is charged down

LAW 12 DEFINITION: KNOCK-ON
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.

If a player in tackling an opponent makes contact with the ball and the ball goes forward from the ball carrier’s hands, that is a knock-on.

If a player rips the ball or deliberately knocks the ball from an opponent’s hands and the ball goes forward from the ball carrier’s hands, that is not a knock-on.

EXCEPTION
Charge down. If a player charges down the ball as an opponent kicks it, or immediately after the kick, it is not a knock-on even though the ball may travel forward.

I have seen charge-downs where the ball has deflected to left or right and behind the charger. Its still a charge down. The ONLY players that can be offside after a charge down are teammates of the player who charged the ball down.


this is the bit that concerns me --

if there is a ruck, and a red prop is 20m offside (having a breather,say)
- red #9 executes a box kick
- does a touch from blue really put the prop onside ? I don't think so.

Is that player really offside at the ruck if

a. the ruck is over, AND
b. his teammate has kicked the ball, AND
c. an opponent has intentionally played the ball.

Sounds to me like you are subscribing to browner's ludicrous "player is always offside" theory. I hope not!

Lets say the ruck was on the goal-line, and the red prop was on the 22m. Are you really going to require the red prop to run all the way back to the goal-line to put himself onside when the rest of the game has moved on to 2 more rucks and is now taking place at half way?

DocY
17-01-17, 11:01
That is what I was meaning when I enquired about the 10m law , but Ian explained

So a kick, touched in flight by an opponent that continues towards the oppo DBL can be played by a kicker's teammate even if he is standing right beside the opponent that wold otherwise have caught it (and was standing there initially etc etc ).

I confess until ian corrected me I was pretty sure this was still offside under the 10m law.

didds

At the risk of starting an argument, I'm not sure that that's the case. If you're loitering you specifically can't be put on side by the actions of an opponent, whether they were within 10m or not. In fact, IIRC, the loitering law was in place before the 10m law.

crossref
17-01-17, 11:01
Sounds to me like you are subscribing to browner's ludicrous "player is always offside" theory. I hope not!

Lets say the ruck was on the goal-line, and the red prop was on the 22m. Are you really going to require the red prop to run all the way back to the goal-line to put himself onside when the rest of the game has moved on to 2 more rucks and is now taking place at half way?

here's the Law

11.8 Putting onside a player retiring during a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout

When a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout forms, a player who is offside and is retiring as required by Law remains offside even when the opposing team wins possession and the ruck, maul, scrum or lineout has ended. The player is put onside by retiring behind the applicable offside line. No other action of the offside player and no action of that player's team mates can put the offside player onside.

If the player remains offside the player can be put onside only by the action of the opposing team. There are two such actions:
Opponent runs 5 metres with ball. When an opponent carrying the ball has run 5 metres, the offside player is put onside. An offside player is not put onside when an opponent passes the ball. Even if the opponents pass the ball several times, their action does not put the offside player onside.

Opponent kicks. When an opponent kicks the ball, the offside player is put onside.

so there's the answer - he's not onside until an opponent gathers and runs 5m, or kicks.

The Fat
17-01-17, 11:01
[QUOTE=crossref;325770]this is the bit that concerns me


Your scenario is probably more one of loitering.
For me, a player must be making an effort to get back onside. If the player is just milling around, sucking in the big ones and making no effort to even walk back to an onside position, that player is loitering and is liable to sanction.

11.9 Loitering
A player who remains in an offside position is loitering. A loiterer who prevents the opposing team from playing the ball as they wish is taking part in the game, and is penalised. The referee makes sure that the loiterer does not benefit from being put onside by the opposing team’s action.
Sanction: Penalty kick at the offending player’s offside line

There is a particular reason I made my previous comment/post,

Originally Posted by The Fat

Was the prop offside from a previous ruck?
Discuss.


11.8 has some quite specific wording and would seem to be dependent on who wins possession from the last ruck. This is the part I want people to consider and decide if 11.8 could/could not be applied to the OP.

11.8 Putting onside a player retiring during a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout

When a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout forms, a player who is offside and is retiring as required by Law remains offside even when the opposing team wins possession and the ruck, maul, scrum or lineout has ended. The player is put onside by retiring behind the applicable offside line. No other action of the offside player and no action of that player's team mates can put the offside player onside.

If the player remains offside the player can be put onside only by the action of the opposing team. There are two such actions:

Opponent runs 5 metres with ball. When an opponent carrying the ball has run 5 metres, the offside player is put onside. An offside player is not put onside when an opponent passes the ball. Even if the opponents pass the ball several times, their action does not put the offside player onside.

Opponent kicks. When an opponent kicks the ball, the offside player is put onside.

Ian_Cook
17-01-17, 11:01
here's the Law

11.8 Putting onside a player retiring during a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout

When a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout forms, a player who is offside and is retiring as required by Law remains offside even when the opposing team wins possession and the ruck, maul, scrum or lineout has ended. The player is put onside by retiring behind the applicable offside line. No other action of the offside player and no action of that player's team mates can put the offside player onside.

If the player remains offside the player can be put onside only by the action of the opposing team. There are two such actions:
Opponent runs 5 metres with ball. When an opponent carrying the ball has run 5 metres, the offside player is put onside. An offside player is not put onside when an opponent passes the ball. Even if the opponents pass the ball several times, their action does not put the offside player onside.

Opponent kicks. When an opponent kicks the ball, the offside player is put onside.

so there's the answer - he's not onside until an opponent gathers and runs 5m, or kicks.

You didn't answer my question.

DocY
17-01-17, 11:01
Lets say the ruck was on the goal-line, and the red prop was on the 22m. Are you really going to require the red prop to run all the way back to the goal-line to put himself onside when the rest of the game has moved on to 2 more rucks and is now taking place at half way?

No, but he has to make an effort to get back on side. If he's making an effort and the kick is half charged down, no problem, but if he's not making an effort I'll treat that as loitering.

crossref
17-01-17, 11:01
You didn't answer my question.

I did.
He remains offside until an an opponent gathers and runs 5m, or kicks.


and while it's not in the Law: common sense says that he's also made onside once he's on the right side of the ongoing play

Not Kurt Weaver
17-01-17, 12:01
I did.
He remains offside until an an opponent gathers and runs 5m, or kicks.


and while it's not in the Law: common sense says that he's also made onside once he's on the right side of the ongoing play

The offside loiterer you are talking about is no longer a "loiterer" when his team wins the ruck, maul, LO, or scrum. Loiterers are defined a interfering with opponents play from ruck, maul, LO, or scrum. This once in position to loiter player in now just an offside teammate. Who can be put onside by actions of opponent

Not Kurt Weaver
17-01-17, 13:01
11.9 Loitering
A player who remains in an offside position is loitering. A loiterer who prevents the opposing team from playing the ball as they wish is taking part in the game, and is penalised. The referee makes sure that the loiterer does not benefit from being put onside by the opposing team’s action.
Sanction: Penalty kick at the offending player’s offside l


Crossref, I think you have a good argument, this is an example of the ambiguousity (not a word) of the laws. It is the downfall of law, and yet the jolly of the game. It is so easy to take the game seriously,but it is part of the joy of the game. Nobody really knows WTF they are doing and we ll think we do.

OB..
17-01-17, 13:01
In fact, IIRC, the loitering law was in place before the 10m law.Loitering first appears in 1979. What is now the ten metre rule was also introduced as a five yard rule in 1889, being increased to ten yards in 1896. (RAB Crowe, London Society; The Evolution of the Laws over the Last Century)

DocY
17-01-17, 14:01
Loitering first appears in 1979. What is now the ten metre rule was also introduced as a five yard rule in 1889, being increased to ten yards in 1896. (RAB Crowe, London Society; The Evolution of the Laws over the Last Century)

I stand corrected!

crossref
17-01-17, 14:01
The offside loiterer you are talking about is no longer a "loiterer" when his team wins the ruck, maul, LO, or scrum. Loiterers are defined a interfering with opponents play from ruck, maul, LO, or scrum. This once in position to loiter player in now just an offside teammate. Who can be put onside by actions of opponent

I wasn't actually talking about loiterers.

Scenario
- ruck, with red #3 miles offside
- red win the ball red #9 box kicks and it's touched in flight by blue (trying to block)
- the ball lands near red #3, can he play it ?

1) IF Red #3 was loitering then it's pretty clear - he can't

11.9 Loitering
A player who remains in an offside position is loitering. A loiterer who prevents the opposing team from playing the ball as they wish is taking part in the game, and is penalised. The referee makes sure that the loiterer does not benefit from being put onside by the opposing team’s action.
Sanction: Penalty kick at the offending player’s offside line

2) IF Red #3 was NOT loitering , then actually i agree the Law isn't clear


11.8 Putting onside a player retiring during a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout

When a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout forms, a player who is offside and is retiring as required by Law remains offside even when the opposing team wins possession and the ruck, maul, scrum or lineout has ended. The player is put onside by retiring behind the applicable offside line. No other action of the offside player and no action of that player's team mates can put the offside player onside.

If the player remains offside the player can be put onside only by the action of the opposing team. There are two such actions:
Opponent runs 5 metres with ball. When an opponent carrying the ball has run 5 metres, the offside player is put onside. An offside player is not put onside when an opponent passes the ball. Even if the opponents pass the ball several times, their action does not put the offside player onside.
Opponent kicks. When an opponent kicks the ball, the offside player is put onside

the Law talks about what happens when the opposing team win possession, was that deliberate, to mean that it's not meant to apply when his own team wins possession? Or was it accidental as that's the scenario that normally causes a problem?

My feeling is that it's accidental.
But interesting discussion. I am pausing to reflect!

didds
17-01-17, 14:01
I suspect here's a case of the 12 year old only having the capacity to consider a loiterer as somebody not making an effort to get onside, hanging around in the 9-10 channel blocking continuation of play. Rather than a player such as red #3 above who then actually catches the ball.

didds

Not Kurt Weaver
17-01-17, 16:01
the Law talks about what happens when the opposing team win possession, was that deliberate, to mean that it's not meant to apply when his own team wins possession? Or was it accidental as that's the scenario that normally causes a problem?

My feeling is that it's accidental.
But interesting discussion. I am pausing to reflect!

My feeling is that is deliberately accidental. Placed in law by either, The Club of Rome, illuminati, or the Russians as a rouse to distract us theNew World Order part 2.

I also think we have several Snowden in our midst aiding to the ploy, see below



Was the prop offside from a previous ruck?
Discuss.


Could he have been loitering?

Ian_Cook
17-01-17, 19:01
No, but he has to make an effort to get back on side. If he's making an effort and the kick is half charged down, no problem, but if he's not making an effort I'll treat that as loitering.

OK, then can you explain this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U8wNPqIdss


► Marland Yarde was clearly 15m+ ahead of the last ruck offside line
► He was making no effort to get himself back onside
► The opposition never touched the ball or had possession of it so no actions of theirs could put him onside
► The play never passed him

I wonder how many rucks Marland Yarde was offside at before he popped up and scored? At least one the we can see in this clip, but probably more.

OB..
17-01-17, 19:01
OK, then can you explain this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U8wNPqIdss


► Marland Yarde was clearly 30m+ ahead of the last ruck offside line
► He was making no effort to get himself back onside
► The opposition never touched the ball or had possession of it so no actions of theirs could put him onside
► The play never passed him

I wonder how many rucks Marland Yarde was offside at before he popped up and scored? At least one the we can see in this clip, but probably more.
Are you claiming the pass to him was forward?

Ian_Cook
17-01-17, 20:01
Are you claiming the pass to him was forward?


No. How do you glean that from what I said?

(NOTE: In any case, a player who receives a forward pass is not made offside by that act)

11.1 OFFSIDE IN GENERAL PLAY
(a) A player who is in an offside position is liable to sanction only if the player does one of three
things:
• Interferes with play or,
• Moves forward, towards the ball or
• Fails to comply with the 10-Metre Law (Law 11.4).
A player who is in an offside position is not automatically penalised.
A player who receives an unintentional throw forward is not offside.
A player can be offside in the in-goal
I'm saying he was offside at the last ruck (his team won the ruck and he was at least 15m ahead of it) and he made no effort to get onside before taking part in play.

If he was offside in general play, then he's fine because, although...

Law 11.1 OFFSIDE IN GENERAL PLAY
(b) Offside and interfering with play. A player who is offside must not take part in the game. This means the player must not play the ball or obstruct an opponent.
...he was made onside by his team-mate, the one who went past him and passed the ball to him.

11.2 BEING PUT ONSIDE BY THE ACTION OF A TEAM-MATE
In general play, there are three ways by which an offside player can be put onside by actions of that player or of team mates:
(b) Action by the ball carrier. When a team-mate carrying the ball runs in front of the offside player, that player is put onside.
But he was not offside in General Play, he was offside at the previous ruck...

16.5 OFFSIDE AT THE RUCK
(a) The offside line. There are two offside lines parallel to the goal lines, one for each team.
Each offside line runs through the hindmost foot of the hindmost player in the ruck. If the hindmost foot of the hindmost player is on or behind the goal line, the offside line for the defending team is the goal line.

(d) Players not joining the ruck. If a player is in front of the offside line and does not join the ruck, the player must retire behind the offside line at once. If a player who is behind the offside line oversteps it and does not join the ruck the player is offside.

... so his only remedy was...

11.8 PUTTING ONSIDE A PLAYER RETIRING DURING A RUCK, MAUL,
SCRUM OR LINEOUT
When a ruck, maul, scrum or lineout forms, a player who is offside and is retiring as required
by Law remains offside even when the opposing team wins possession and the ruck, maul,
scrum or lineout has ended. The player is put onside by retiring behind the applicable
offside line. No other action of the offside player and no action of that player’s team mates
can put the offside player onside.

NOTE: He wasn't offside under the 10m Law because there was no kick by a teammate.

crossref
17-01-17, 20:01
so what's your conclusion then, Ian - how did he get onside?

Ian_Cook
17-01-17, 21:01
so what's your conclusion then, Ian - how did he get onside?


That is what I am asking.


(I am wondering whether who is in possession at the ruck is relevant to how the ruck offside Law is being applied.)

crossref
17-01-17, 21:01
- he was put onside by the ball carrier going past him, obviously.

Not Kurt Weaver
17-01-17, 21:01
That is what I am asking.


(I am wondering whether who is in possession at the ruck is relevant to how the ruck offside Law is being applied.)

Possession at ruck is irrelevant, winning possession after the ruck is. Loitering players are not loitering in their teams wins possession. Offside in general play is all that exist.

BCH24
17-01-17, 21:01
Thanks all for your thoughts.

In the original incident, the ref gave a penalty for the prop being offside at the place he caught the ball. He said nothing of loitering. The prop was heading in the right direction, albeit very slowly. When he caught the ball, it was probably accidental as he normally drops it and wouldn't be agile enough to get out of its way.

The general feeling of the few watching was touched in flight so play on.

crossref
17-01-17, 21:01
Loitering players are not loitering if their teams wins possession.

but there's no Law reference for that.

and it does say


11.9 Loitering
A player who remains in an offside position is loitering. A loiterer who prevents the opposing team from playing the ball as they wish is taking part in the game, and is penalised. The referee makes sure that the loiterer does not benefit from being put onside by the opposing team’s action.
Sanction: Penalty kick at the offending player’s offside line

Ian_Cook
17-01-17, 22:01
- he was put onside by the ball carrier going past him, obviously.


IF he was offside in General Play, then I would agree, but he was 15m ahead of a ruck at which his team was in possession. This makes him offside under Law 11.8, and, as you said earlier "he's not onside until an opponent gathers and runs 5m, or kicks"


Now, if he actually WAS offside in General Play at the time he received the pass, then when and how did he become no longer offside at the ruck. As far as I can see, none of the remedial provisions under Law 11.8 took place.

crossref
17-01-17, 22:01
IF he was offside in General Play, then I would agree, but he was 15m ahead of a ruck at which his team was in possession. This makes him offside under Law 11.8, and, as you said earlier "he's not onside until an opponent gathers and runs 5m, or kicks"


Now, if he actually WAS offside in General Play at the time he received the pass, then when and how did he become no longer offside at the ruck. As far as I can see, none of the remedial provisions under Law 11.8 took place.

which is what I said in #20


and while it's not in the Law: common sense says that he's also made onside once he's on the right side of the ongoing play


So - it's your turn - how do you think Yarde got onside?

OB..
17-01-17, 23:01
Ian - you said "The play never passed him", but unless the pass was forward, then it must have done.
You are actually arguing that this fact is irrelevant.

"A player who receives an unintentional throw forward is not offside." Not from the pass, of course, but as you say he might be offside for some other reason.

I understand the general thinking that it is unfair for a "dead" player to suddenly come to life in such a convenient fashion. The law does not really tackle the matter of a player who is initially unable to retire, but then recovers. I wonder if panel referees have an agreement on such things? They certainly need one.

didds
17-01-17, 23:01
I wonder how many rucks Marland Yarde was offside at before he popped up and scored? At least one the we can see in this clip, but probably more.

that is just taking the piss. YC for being a ******

didds

The Fat
17-01-17, 23:01
Thanks all for your thoughts.

In the original incident, the ref gave a penalty for the prop being offside at the place he caught the ball. He said nothing of loitering. The prop was heading in the right direction, albeit very slowly. When he caught the ball, it was probably accidental as he normally drops it and wouldn't be agile enough to get out of its way.

The general feeling of the few watching was touched in flight so play on.

Hang around BCH24.
The discussion is going where I hoped it would.
In a day or so, we might give you some more info on the ref's decision in your OP

Ian_Cook
18-01-17, 01:01
Ian - you said "The play never passed him", but unless the pass was forward, then it must have done.
You are actually arguing that this fact is irrelevant.

"A player who receives an unintentional throw forward is not offside." Not from the pass, of course, but as you say he might be offside for some other reason.

OK. What I meant by "The play never passed him" was that there had not been another phase of play such as a ruck or a maul, with a new phase play offside line that he would be behind.


For example, lets say that a ruck forms (we'll call it Ruck #1).

► The Red SH passes a "hospital" pass from Ruck #1 back to his 10, who is immediately tackled and another quick ruck forms (Ruck #2)

► All the Red players involved Ruck #1 begin to retire to join Ruck #2 but before they can reach the Ruck #2 offside line, the acting Blue SH grabs the ball and bolts upfield, passing those players and passing where Ruck #1 formed, before he is tackled.

This is where it is really important to determine how those Red players are offside.

If they are offside at Ruck #2 under Law 11.8, then they cannot simply turn around and enter that tackle to form Ruck #3?. They haven't been made onside under Law 11.8. They would need to return all the way to the Ruck #2 offside line.

If they are offside in General Play, then can turn and join the tackle, because the SH passing them with the ball in hand made them onside under Law 11.2 (b)

IMO (and I think this might be what TheFAT is angling at), the offside at the Ruck Law should apply only to players who were onside, and who then overstepped the Ruck offside line before the ruck ended. The intent of the ruck offside Law appears to be one of fairness, to prevent defenders from getting a "'head start". I don't believe this Law is intended to deal with players who are already upfield in an offside position for some other reason (got left behind, injured, being treated etc) at the time a ruck is formed. Offside in General Play deals with them, and Offside Under the 10M Law deals with them in the event of a kick by a teammate..

The Fat
18-01-17, 02:01
Here's a hint.
The red players who find themselves in an offside position after ruck #1 are only an immediate problem if their opposition (let's say blue team), win possession of the ball at the next phase of play. If red maintain possession after ruck #2 and move the ball down field past those "retiring" red players, it makes sense that they have now been "played onside". If not, who is going to watch each of them jog back to the previous offside line whilst the ref is concentrating on the continuing play?
This is why 11.8 specifically mentions the opposition gaining possession.

Ian_Cook
18-01-17, 02:01
Here's a hint.
The red players who find themselves in an offside position after ruck #1 are only an immediate problem if their opposition (let's say blue team), win possession of the ball at the next phase of play. If red maintain possession after ruck #2 and move the ball down field past those "retiring" red players, it makes sense that they have now been "played onside". If not, who is going to watch each of them jog back to the previous offside line whilst the ref is concentrating on the continuing play?
This is why 11.8 specifically mentions the opposition gaining possession.


So, those red players were offside in General Play?

didds
18-01-17, 10:01
well Id say offside at the ruck, and offside in general play until the ball carrier has passed them.

Yarde was understandably in a position whereby he coulnd't do anything about that ... initially... but then profited from being there when it became convenient.

He may of course have been in support if he hadn't been down injured but playing normally - but that's a beam me up scotty scenario...

didds

TheBFG
18-01-17, 11:01
Hang around BCH24.
The discussion is going where I hoped it would.
In a day or so, we might give you some more info on the ref's decision in your OP

This is just typical of some on this site, a case of "one-up-manship" and ignoring a genuine question by a "new ref". :shrug:

The Fat
18-01-17, 11:01
Let's look at the practical application of the Laws.

Scenario #1:
Blue are in possession of the ball. Following a tackle on red's 22m line, a ruck forms. Red 6 was the tackler and red 3 was a tackle assist who stayed on his feet. Red 3 is standing beside the ruck and is past blue's last feet. Blue maintains possession from the ruck and red 3 is making no effort to retire behind his own offside line as required under 16.5(b). Red 3 is already having an effect on blue's options so penalty advantage blue (red 3 is loitering but the infringement if sanctioned by the referee is offside). Blue 9 has passed to blue 10 who runs 5m and is grabbed by red 3. Red 3 was loitering and therefore gets no advantage by blue 10 running 5m (11.8). PK to blue, red 3 offside.

Scenario #2:
Blue are in possession of the ball. Following a tackle on red's 22m line, a ruck forms. Red 6 was the tackler and red 3 was a tackle assist who stayed on his feet. Red 3 is standing beside the ruck and is past blue's last feet. Blue maintains possession from the ruck and red 3 is moving towards his own offside line as required under 16.5(b). Blue 9 has passed to blue 10 who runs 5m and close to red 3 who instinctively grabs blue 10. Red 3 was not loitering and has now been played onside by blue 10. It may look slightly wrong, but red 3 has complied with the requirement to move towards his own offside line and blue has run 5m with the ball (11.8). Play on.

Scenario #3:
Blue are in possession of the ball. Following a tackle on red's 22m line, a ruck forms. Red 6 was the tackler and is slightly winded, temporarily remaining on the ground. Red win a turn over and red 9 passes the ball to red 4 who is about 10m from his own goal line. Another ruck forms (new offside line created) with red winning that ruck and maintaining possession. Red 9 passes to red 5 who is 8m from his own goal line. Red 6 has regained his feet and is still about 22m from his own goal line and starts moving towards his goal line as red 5 runs forward with the ball.
At this point in time, red 6 is in an offside position, i.e. he is in front of a team mate who is carrying the ball. If we try to apply 11.8 to red 6, the whole thing becomes complicated and turns to shit. It is impossible for red 6 to be put onside by blue as they are not in possession.
Red 5 runs past red 6 about 16m from red's goal line. Freeze play at this point. Does the referee allow red 6 to turn and rejoin play or does the referee call to red 6 to retire another 6m before taking part in play? How does the referee follow play and still monitor red 6 continuing on to the last ruck's offside line? He doesn't because 11.8 applies only when the opposition (blue) are in possession.

In Scenario #3, if blue wins possession at the 2nd ruck, red 6 can only be put onside by
1. Retiring to the 2nd ruck's offside line (10m from his own goal line)
2. Blue player kicks the ball
3. Blue player runs 5m with the ball

In Scenario #3, if red maintain possession, red 6 is offside in general play and 11.2 applies.

The Fat
18-01-17, 11:01
This is just typical of some on this site, a case of "one-up-manship" and ignoring a genuine question by a "new ref". :shrug:

It is definitely not a case of one-up-manship.
It is a case of getting people here to consider all parts of the Laws and then bringing it back to the OP.
Some Laws are black and white. Other laws need to be looked at considering the application of several laws.

If my post gave you the impression that I was just trying to be a smart arse or a dick, then you have interpreted it in a way other than it was intended. Can't do much about that now other than let people discuss all parts of law 11 and ultimately give the OP a definitive answer.
It sounded like BCH24 thought he had all the relative information. I was simply asking him to watch this space.
Sorry if that offended you TheBFG

Ian_Cook
18-01-17, 12:01
The Offside Laws of rugby are among the most complicated parts of the game; sometimes there is simply no "straight line" answer to a question.

Phil E
18-01-17, 12:01
The Offside Laws of rugby are among the most complicated parts of the game; sometimes there is simply no "straight line" answer to a question.

And sometimes there is a simple answer, but some posters will convolute a scenario to completely muddy the waters and attempt to make a simple scenario unbelievably complicated, thereby confusing a new poster beyond all reason, when a simple answer was required and would be the norm in practical refereeing.

There are a few theoretical referees on this forum who forget pragmatic application of the laws on the pitch.

Christy
18-01-17, 14:01
OK, then can you explain this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-U8wNPqIdss


► Marland Yarde was clearly 15m+ ahead of the last ruck offside line
► He was making no effort to get himself back onside
► The opposition never touched the ball or had possession of it so no actions of theirs could put him onside
► The play never passed him

I wonder how many rucks Marland Yarde was offside at before he popped up and scored? At least one the we can see in this clip, but probably more.


can we clarify this for me please .{ surely try shouldnt of been awarded }
for me he was off side on floor getting treatment .{ ok ill live with this }
his own team mates have to run in front of him to put him on side { marland got up & moved forward from an off side position whilst still off side }
ball carrier over took him { whilst marland had already started his own run forward } ...surely penalty off side & moving forward .

Not Kurt Weaver
18-01-17, 14:01
And sometimes there is a simple answer
There are a few theoretical referees on this forum who forget pragmatic application of the laws on the pitch.

I'll try and help even though this isn't original post. I'll try a simple answer and see if it works.


can we clarify this for me please .{ surely try shouldnt of been awarded }
for me he was off side on floor getting treatment .{ ok ill live with this }
his own team mates have to run in front of him to put him on side { marland got up & moved forward from an off side position whilst still off side }
ball carrier over took him { whilst marland had already started his own run forward } ...surely penalty off side & moving forward .

The play/ploy took place in general play

Christy
18-01-17, 15:01
all the others were in generall play ,,yes i agree .
but here is a guy who it is simple for the ref to see , clearly was off side .
this isnt an off side at hind foot ,,fifty / fifty call /
he was on the opposite side of pitch . and got up & ran forward whilst still off side ...

for me had his team mate ran past marland , before marland actually ran forward , i would say yes try .

Not Kurt Weaver
18-01-17, 15:01
a
he was on the opposite side of pitch . and got up & ran forward whilst still off side ...

for me had his team mate ran past marland , before marland actually ran forward , i would say yes try .

My bold above, he sure did run forward. But at one point there was an elephant on the field, i do not believe the elephant was material.

Now was Marland running fwd while offside material? I'd have to agree with you that doing so put him in a better position to receive the ball after he was put onside. He, however, did not interfere with opponents ability to play ballcarrier.

That is the crux,eh? Marland's fwd run is similar to a decoy runner from a set piece. This decoy runner actually could later find himself in a beneficial position by virtue of running fwd from ball carrier.

No simple answer form me, I'm out.

DocY
18-01-17, 16:01
My bold above, he sure did run forward. But at one point there was an elephant on the field, i do not believe the elephant was material.

Now was Marland running fwd while offside material? I'd have to agree with you that doing so put him in a better position to receive the ball after he was put onside. He, however, did not interfere with opponents ability to play ballcarrier.

That is the crux,eh? Marland's fwd run is similar to a decoy runner from a set piece. This decoy runner actually could later find himself in a beneficial position by virtue of running fwd from ball carrier.

No simple answer form me, I'm out.

I can see both arguments. If you were going by the letter of the law then he should have been penalised, but I think it's quite reasonable to use your empathy and say it was immaterial.
Reminded me a bit of Gareth Davies' try against Scotland last year - he ran forward while offside, but only played the ball when he'd been put on side.

I don't know if there was much fall out from the Yarde try, but there was from the Davies one. Does that suggest that the ref should have made the opposite decision? I don't think anything would be said of either incident if the ref had given a penalty.

crossref
18-01-17, 16:01
And sometimes there is a simple answer, but some posters will convolute a scenario to completely muddy the waters and attempt to make a simple scenario unbelievably complicated, thereby confusing a new poster beyond all reason, when a simple answer was required and would be the norm in practical refereeing.

There are a few theoretical referees on this forum who forget pragmatic application of the laws on the pitch.

seems to me we are mostly discussing the Marland incident, which is not theoretical at all, but real.

Phil E
18-01-17, 17:01
seems to me we are mostly discussing the Marland incident, which is not theoretical at all, but real.

I was talking generally.

L'irlandais
18-01-17, 17:01
Thanks all for your thoughts.

In the original incident, the ref gave a penalty for the prop being offside at the place he caught the ball. He said nothing of loitering. The prop was heading in the right direction, albeit very slowly. When he caught the ball, it was probably accidental as he normally drops it and wouldn't be agile enough to get out of its way.

The general feeling of the few watching was touched in flight so play on.From what I understand of this lengthy discussion, only a charge down by Blue puts the lazy prop back onside. Touched in flight only and the ref's call on the day was correct, (option of scrum 5 would have been more advantageous to blue however.). especially in the context of U14 grassroots rugby match.

See Ian's #8 for details of what isn't a charge down.LAW 11.4 OFFSIDE UNDER THE 10M LAW
(f) The 10-metre Law does not apply when a player kicks the ball, and an opponent charges
down the kick, and a team-mate of the kicker who was in front of the imaginary 10-metre
line across the field then plays the ball. The opponent was not ‘waiting to play the ball’ and
the team-mate is onside. The 10-metre Law applies if the ball touches or is played by an
opponent but is not charged down.

Keep it simple, let TV rugby do the convolutions.
(Btw, Not sure the Maryland discussion helps my understanding of OP scenario.)

didds
18-01-17, 17:01
Going back to Yarde. Of course his offside position, albeit whilst being treated, was material. It helped him be where he needed to be to take a scoring pass. Its akin to beam me up Scotty time - he MAY have got there had he started form an onside position. But he wasn't in an onside position to start with for us to find out. So starting in an offside position he was subsequently able to be in the right place at the right time.

PK and YC from me.

didds

L'irlandais
18-01-17, 18:01
Genuine question: How difficult is it to start a new discussion entitled "Maryland Yarde offside or not?"

- - - Updated - - -

BCH24 has asked an interesting question and is surely entitled to a answer; one that covers the OP, "ball touched in flight" situation. Injured player in offside position, gets up to receive a try scoring pass, surely only confuses the search for an answer to BCH24's question.

Practically every single discussion on these forums gets bogged down in the way Phil-E suggests in #50

crossref
18-01-17, 19:01
one topic per thread is nice idea - -- that's a MOD job, to split a thread inot two if it starts to drift

the OP scenario is similar to Yarde, I think

crossref
18-01-17, 19:01
May I have your views on this please?

U14 school match.

Blue is attacking and are five metres out from Red try line.

Red turnover the ball, and pass it back, over the try line towards the dead ball line. Red kick to clear their lines. Most of red are in front of the kicker. Blue touch the ball in flight, it balloons up and is coming down, inside the 22, about 15 metres from the try Line.

Blue player reaches up to try and catch the ball above his head as it falls, only to parry it backwards over his head straight into the arms of the very lazy Red prop wandering back. The Red prop instinctively catches it as he can't react quick enough to do anything else.

is Red prop onside or offside?

My straightforward answer to the OP is

Was the Red prop loitering ?
- if he was loitering then it's a PK, because the referee makes sure no one can benefit from loitering
- if he wasn't loitering (ie he was making a bona fide and speedy effort to get onside) then it's play on, the blue touch played him onside from the kick

From your description alone , it's impossible to judge whether or not he was loitering. You have to be there

The one clue, perhaps, is that he is described as lazy,so perhaps he was loitering

11.9 Loitering
A player who remains in an offside position is loitering. A loiterer who prevents the opposing team from playing the ball as they wish is taking part in the game, and is penalised. The referee makes sure that the loiterer does not benefit from being put onside by the opposing team’s action.
Sanction: Penalty kick at the offending player’s offside line

L'irlandais
18-01-17, 19:01
It's not really what I am suggesting.

The OP is about underage rugby offside when ball was touched in flight. Bringing up an example from the Elite game, (which some feel is vaguely similar,) but is so different it probably just confuses the issue, is not that helpful.
No need for mods to split threads, just for a little common sense, answer the question asked, ignore the usual attempts to hop on soap boxes.

Which touch plays him on side? First touch, only does so if it's a charge down, right?

Ian_Cook
18-01-17, 20:01
Genuine question: How difficult is it to start a new discussion entitled "Maryland Yarde offside or not?"

- - - Updated - - -

BCH24 has asked an interesting question and is surely entitled to a answer; one that covers the OP, "ball touched in flight" situation. Injured player in offside position, gets up to receive a try scoring pass, surely only confuses the search for an answer to BCH24's question.

Practically every single discussion on these forums gets bogged down in the way Phil-E suggests in #50


BCH24's question was answered correctly by DickieE in post #2!!!
In Post #35, BCH24 thanked for our thoughts. However to elaborate further...

The OP said "Blue touch the ball in flight, it balloons up and is coming down, inside the 22, about 15 metres from the try Line". This makes me think the Blue player who touched the ball got a sizeable chunk of it. This sounds like a charge down as described, but without seeing it, I can't be certain

As soon as a player kicks the ball with teammates ahead of him, then offside under the 10M Law may come into play.

11.4 OFFSIDE UNDER THE 10-METRE LAW
(a) When a team-mate of an offside player has kicked ahead, the offside player is considered to be taking part in the game if the player is in front of an imaginary line across the field which is 10 metres from the opponent waiting to play the ball, or from where the ball lands or may land. The offside player must immediately move behind the imaginary 10-metre line or the kicker if this is closer than 10 metres. While moving away, the player must not obstruct an opponent or interfere with play
Since the Kick by the red player was made in-goal, and the ball was coming down 15m from the goal-line, the Red prop was certainly offside under the 10M Law. However, if it was a charge down, then the Red prop is made onside. The Law is clear and unequivocal on this

11.4 (f) The 10-metre Law does not apply when a player kicks the ball, and an opponent charges down the kick, and a team-mate of the kicker who was in front of the imaginary 10-metre line across the field then plays the ball. The opponent was not ‘waiting to play the ball’ and the team-mate is onside. The 10-metre Law applies if the ball touches or is played by an opponent but is not charged down.
However, even if by some fluke of player positioning, the red prop was not offside under the 10M law, but only offside in General Play, he would still be made onside by the touch of the ball by the Blue player

11.3 BEING PUT ONSIDE BY OPPONENTS
In general play, there are three ways by which an offside player can be put onside by an action of the opposing team. These three ways do not apply to a player who is offside under the 10-Metre Law.
(c) Intentionally touches ball. When an opponent intentionally touches the ball but does not catch it, the offside player is put onside.
Conclusion: The answer to the OP's question depends on one or two things
1. whether the Red prop was offside in General Play or Offside under the 10M Law
2. if the latter in 1. above, then whether Blue's touch of the ball was a charge down or not.

If the Red Prop was offside in General Play, then he is made onside by any touch of the ball in flight by the Blue player.... play on!

If the Red player was offside under the 10M Law, and the Blue player's touch was a charge down the red prop has been made onside by that touch... play on!

If the Red player was offside under the 10M Law, and the Blue player's touch was NOT a charge down, then the Red prop has NOT been mad onside.... PEEP! PK to Blue!

There is NO wiggle room under other offside Laws to make him offside because it might "look wrong" or you don't like the fact that he is made onside.

tim White
19-01-17, 08:01
Re; Yarde; I'm going to throw in Law 10.4.m -acts contrary to good sportsmanship. When apparently injured he was apparently out of the game and receiving attention from the physio and as such the defence disregarded him, this was clearly a deception. I'm not sure I would blow for it but I am sure it feels wrong not to blow for it -let's ask the defenders how they felt.

Thunderhorse1986
19-01-17, 09:01
Am I being thick in saying that once the ruck or maul ends, the offside lines from that ruck or maul are obsolete? We move into general play and the offside lines apply from that area of the game not from the prior ruck?

So for Yarde, the ruck was over, we are now in general play, and he plays the ball from an onside position (behind that of a team mate who previously played the ball)?

You might consider him "loitering" or "acts contrary to good sportsmanship" (I agree it doesn't "look" right which is sometimes a good reason to blow the whistle) but I don't think it can be offside in a general sense.

Phil E
19-01-17, 10:01
Am I being thick in saying that once the ruck or maul ends, the offside lines from that ruck or maul are obsolete? We move into general play and the offside lines apply from that area of the game not from the prior ruck?

So for Yarde, the ruck was over, we are now in general play, and he plays the ball from an onside position (behind that of a team mate who previously played the ball)?

You might consider him "loitering" or "acts contrary to good sportsmanship" (I agree it doesn't "look" right which is sometimes a good reason to blow the whistle) but I don't think it can be offside in a general sense.

Think about it...So, it would be alright (with you) if half my team stay upfield behind the defence, and just stand there.
They wait for a ruck to finish, then one of their team kick the ball ahead and we have half their team waiting to catch it and score.

Loitering isn't contrary to good sportsmanship, it's offside and is a specific offence with a sanction of a penalty kick.

Dickie E
19-01-17, 10:01
Think about it...So, it would be alright (with you) if half my team stay upfield behind the defence, and just stand there.


That can't happen. Half my team is 7.5 people :)

crossref
19-01-17, 10:01
Think about it...So, it would be alright (with you) if half my team stay upfield behind the defence, and just stand there.
They wait for a ruck to finish, then one of their team kick the ball ahead and we have half their team waiting to catch it and score.

Loitering isn't contrary to good sportsmanship, it's offside and is a specific offence with a sanction of a penalty kick.

but Yarde wasn't waiting, he was injured.. should a player receiving treatment be counted as a loiterer ?

crossref
19-01-17, 10:01
Re; Yarde; I'm going to throw in Law 10.4.m -acts contrary to good sportsmanship. When apparently injured he was apparently out of the game and receiving attention from the physio and as such the defence disregarded him, this was clearly a deception. I'm not sure I would blow for it but I am sure it feels wrong not to blow for it -let's ask the defenders how they felt.

would it be the same if he WASN'T offside -- eg if you are being treated 40m behind the play, and completely onside, and then the oppo make a break, is it bad sportsmanship to get up and make a tackle ?

If not, if that's OK, then it means it all revolves around offside and specifically - does being injured in an offside postion amount to loitering ?

Not Kurt Weaver
19-01-17, 12:01
Think about it...So, it would be alright (with you) if half my team stay upfield behind the defence, and just stand there. Yes, we would be defending 7.5 attacking players with 15
They wait for a ruck to finish, then one of their team kick the ball ahead and we have half their team waiting to catch it and score. Good The 7.5 players are offside in general play, easiest way to get ball back and 3 pts

Loitering isn't contrary to good sportsmanship, it's offside and is a specific offence with a sanction of a penalty kick. It is also tactically detrimentally, any benefit of loitering is easily exploited with normal rugby non offending team

This may be your worse argument ever. My response to the appeals to absurd is in red.

didds
19-01-17, 12:01
does being injured in an offside postion amount to loitering ?
Id say it does if the inhjured player manages to use his field position to benefit his team.
didds

Thunderhorse1986
19-01-17, 12:01
Think about it...So, it would be alright (with you) if half my team stay upfield behind the defence, and just stand there.
They wait for a ruck to finish, then one of their team kick the ball ahead and we have half their team waiting to catch it and score.

Loitering isn't contrary to good sportsmanship, it's offside and is a specific offence with a sanction of a penalty kick.

Phil, I think we agree in general - my point was more to say "let's forget about the ruck offside, this is now general play, as the ruck is over". So loitering is a way of being offside in general play. If you consider Yarde to be loitering, is that still the case here after he is put onside by a player from his team running in front of him? Or does it become irrelevant after he is "overtaken". Also CR's question - can an "injured" player be loitering. Very tricky. I'd be inclined to penalise on how it looks, but struggling in law to explain why.

Phil E
19-01-17, 12:01
This may be your worse argument ever. My response to the appeals to absurd is in red.

Americans just don't do sarcasm, do they?

Thunderhorse1986
19-01-17, 12:01
Phil, also, in your scenario, if your team kick ahead and half your players are ahead of the kicker, they are offside in general play, or under 10m law. They are ahead of the player from their team who last played the ball. But I wouldn't consider them offside from that prior ruck any more, as the ruck is over.

Phil E
19-01-17, 12:01
Also CR's question - can an "injured" player be loitering. Very tricky. I'd be inclined to penalise on how it looks, but struggling in law to explain why.

You don't need to explain it.

"Blue 7 lazy runner, never back onside."

That's all you need to say.

TheBFG
19-01-17, 13:01
Come on we've all used that "never on-side" call, like others have said, it "just doesn't look right" :chin:

L'irlandais
19-01-17, 13:01
would it be the same if he WASN'T offside -- eg if you are being treated 40m behind the play, and completely onside, and then the oppo make a break, is it bad sportsmanship to get up and make a tackle ?

If not, if that's OK, then it means it all revolves around offside and specifically - does being injured in an offside postion amount to loitering ?That sounds like BOD's tackle against Munster (https://youtu.be/Ofho-CKSXX8), injured, onside and applauded for the gutsy tackle.

Thunderhorse1986
19-01-17, 14:01
You don't need to explain it.

"Blue 7 lazy runner, never back onside."

That's all you need to say.

For a player who is offside at the ruck and then interferes with play before being put onside - never back onside etc

But this is different. Say #7 Blue makes a tackle on Red. Ruck 1 forms which Red win, and then take the ball forward 10 yards, where they are tackled and a new ruck is formed (Ruck 2). As Red 7 is getting up he is still in front of Ruck 2 (closer to the opposition DBL) so is offside from that. But at Ruck 2 his teammate Blue 9 turns the ball over and carries the ball forward. When Blue 9 runs in front of Blue 7, Blue 7 is now onside and can receive the pass.

(similar to what happened with Yarde but without the injury, and assuming Blue 7 was never "loitering")

Not Kurt Weaver
19-01-17, 14:01
Think about it...So, it would be alright (with you) if half my team stay upfield behind the defence, and just stand there.
They wait for a ruck to finish, then one of their team kick the ball ahead and we have half their team waiting to catch it and score. These are just exaggerations to justify your factual statement below, not sarcastic. Sarcasm involves some humor/humour. These exaggerations aren't even witty

Loitering isn't contrary to good sportsmanship, it's offside and is a specific offence with a sanction of a penalty kick.


Americans just don't do sarcasm, do they?

Are you using sarcasm here, also?

Do not confuse US Americans with Canadians (as both are americans). Canucks do not understand sarcasm.

Sarcasm is a mocking humor to prove a pt. Your original statement above is neither mocking or funny.

Here are some examples for your future reference:

"Brits use nonstick pans to fry eggs", or "Brits love fluoride" or "I so glad that Pom came to join our club"

The Fat
19-01-17, 14:01
For a player who is offside at the ruck and then interferes with play before being put onside - never back onside etc

But this is different. Say #7 Blue makes a tackle on Red. Ruck 1 forms which Red win, and then take the ball forward 10 yards, where they are tackled and a new ruck is formed (Ruck 2). As BLUE 7 is getting up he is still in front of Ruck 2 (closer to the opposition DBL) so is offside from that. But at Ruck 2 his teammate Blue 9 turns the ball over and carries the ball forward. When Blue 9 runs in front of Blue 7, Blue 7 is now onside and can receive the pass.

(similar to what happened with Yarde but without the injury, and assuming Blue 7 was never "loitering")

FTFY.

didds
19-01-17, 14:01
That sounds like BOD's tackle against Munster (https://youtu.be/Ofho-CKSXX8), injured, onside and applauded for the gutsy tackle.


onside being the appropriate word there.

didds

Thunderhorse1986
19-01-17, 16:01
Thank you The Fat - exactly what I meant

Ian_Cook
19-01-17, 19:01
The main issue I have with the Marland Yarde scenario is not that he was in an offside position while being treated (which is indisputable), but its that when he saw the play heading his way, he got up and ran forwards.

LAW 11 DEFINITIONS
In general play, a player can be put onside either by an action of a team-mate or by
an action of an opponent. However, the offside player cannot be put onside if the
offside player interferes with play; or moves forward, towards the ball, or fails to
move 10 metres away from the place where the ball lands.

LAW 11.1 OFFSIDE IN GENERAL PLAY
(a) A player who is in an offside position is liable to sanction only if the player does one of three
things:
• Interferes with play or,
• Moves forward, towards the ball or
• Fails to comply with the 10-Metre Law (Law 11.4).


This means that he remained offside even when his teammate carrying the ball overtook him.

Had he got up and immediately started retiring, and kept doing so until made onside by an onside teammate before turning and running in support, I would have no problem with him taking part in play.

Ian_Cook
19-01-17, 19:01
Your original statement above is neither mocking or funny.

Really?

I thought it was funny enough that Phil owes me a new monitor and a refill of my morning coffee.

(BTW, that was humour NKW)

Not Kurt Weaver
19-01-17, 21:01
Really?

I thought it was funny enough that Phil owes me a new monitor and a refill of my morning coffee.

(BTW, that was humour NKW)

I like you use of sarcasm in this post; see how he used it Phil

crossref
19-01-17, 21:01
The main issue I have with the Marland Yarde scenario is not that he was in an offside position while being treated (which is indisputable), but its that when he saw the play heading his way, he got up and ran forwards.

LAW 11 DEFINITIONS
In general play, a player can be put onside either by an action of a team-mate or by
an action of an opponent. However, the offside player cannot be put onside if the
offside player interferes with play; or moves forward, towards the ball, or fails to
move 10 metres away from the place where the ball lands.

LAW 11.1 OFFSIDE IN GENERAL PLAY
(a) A player who is in an offside position is liable to sanction only if the player does one of three
things:
• Interferes with play or,
• Moves forward, towards the ball or
• Fails to comply with the 10-Metre Law (Law 11.4).


This means that he remained offside even when his teammate carrying the ball overtook him.

Had he got up and immediately started retiring, and kept doing so until made onside by an onside teammate before turning and running in support, I would have no problem with him taking part in play.

BUT the laws say...

LAW 11 DEFINITIONS
In general play, a player can be put onside either by an action of a team-mate or by
an action of an opponent. However, the offside player cannot be put onside if the
offside player interferes with play; or moves forward, towards the ball, or fails to
move 10 metres away from the place where the ball lands.

LAW 11.1 OFFSIDE IN GENERAL PLAY
(a) A player who is in an offside position is liable to sanction only if the player does one of three
things:
• Interferes with play or,
• Moves forward, towards the ball or
• Fails to comply with the 10-Metre Law (Law 11.4).


he was moving forward, but away from the ball - doesn't that make a difference?

Ian_Cook
19-01-17, 22:01
BUT the laws say...

LAW 11 DEFINITIONS
In general play, a player can be put onside either by an action of a team-mate or by
an action of an opponent. However, the offside player cannot be put onside if the
offside player interferes with play; or moves forward, towards the ball, or fails to
move 10 metres away from the place where the ball lands.

LAW 11.1 OFFSIDE IN GENERAL PLAY
(a) A player who is in an offside position is liable to sanction only if the player does one of three
things:
• Interferes with play or,
• Moves forward, towards the ball or
• Fails to comply with the 10-Metre Law (Law 11.4).


he was moving forward, but away from the ball - doesn't that make a difference?

No. The Law says "Moves forward, towards the ball, or fails to
move 10 metres away"

That doesn't mean he needs to move forwards AND towards the ball, it means if he moves forward OR towards the ball, he falls foul of the Law.

Think about it for a moment. If we took your reading of this, it would create a loophole for an offside player allowing him to run across the the field (i.e. not moving forwards) and pick up a loose ball. Would you be happy to allow that?


ETA

Scenario

Blue 10 kicks off, and the ball travels 20m, where Gold 5 jumps to catch the ball but knocks it on 5m. Gold 13 runs back from the 10m line and picks up the ball. Offside?

Not under your reading of the Law, because Gold 13 was not moving forwards AND towards the ball.

Thunderhorse1986
20-01-17, 08:01
Does the action of his team mate running in front of him with the ball not make him onside? He is now behind the player from his own team who last played the ball.

If the ball was kicked to where he was, or if the opposition had possession and passed it out to where he was, and it hadn't touched one of his own team, I agree he is definitely still offside.

But to me, once the ball carrier on his own team goes past him (towards the opposition DBL) then he is onside. You can debate exactly when MY got up in the example etc, but as a more general principle, would he be back onside as soon as his team mate the ball carrier runs in front of him?

Ian_Cook
20-01-17, 09:01
Does the action of his team mate running in front of him with the ball not make him onside? He is now behind the player from his own team who last played the ball.

In this case, no.

11.1 OFFSIDE IN GENERAL PLAY
(a) A player who is in an offside position is liable to sanction only if the player does one of three things:
• Interferes with play or,
• Moves forward, towards the ball or
• Fails to comply with the 10-Metre Law (Law 11.4).

Most important though is what is says in the offside definitions....

LAW 11 DEFINITIONS
In general play, a player can be put onside either by an action of a team-mate or by
an action of an opponent. However, the offside player cannot be put onside if the
offside player interferes with play; or moves forward, towards the ball, or fails to
move 10 metres away from the place where the ball lands.

He can only be made onside if he is retiring or at the very least, remaining where he is until he is overtaken by an onside team mate. He is liable to sanction if he moves forward, which in effect, takes him further offside than he already was. Since Yarde moved forward after getting to his feet, and before he was made onside, he lost any chance to be made onside, whether by his teammate or by an opponent.

DocY
20-01-17, 10:01
I'm surprised this is still going on. Isn't it pretty well understood that, in law, he could have been penalised?

The law Ian quotes is frequently ignored (13 passes to 14, who is behind him, and keeps on running forwards, 14 over takes him and gives the return pass - 13 is technically offside, but who'd ping him for that?), though is there for this sort of case. The ref must have just decided his moving forward was immaterial.

thepercy
20-01-17, 16:01
If MY retired as per normal, wouldn't he be moving "towards the ball"?