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DocY
11-03-17, 19:03
I had an interesting one today:

Kick through, fullback dives on the ball less than a meter from the goal line.

The chaser pauses then grabs him by the shirt, drags him (still holding the ball) over the goal line then goes for the ball, which was definitely grounded (it was unclear who by).

What should I have given? I'm intentionally not saying what I gave to try not to bias answers.

OB..
11-03-17, 20:03
I remember an incident some years ago where a player fell on the ball near the touch line and was promptly dragged into touch by an opponent. The panel referee decided the player who fell on the ball had taken it into touch (because he could have released it).

On that basis the full back took it into in-goal, but unless the chaser was first to ground it, no try. Attacking 5m scrum.

Ian_Cook
12-03-17, 00:03
I had an interesting one today:

Kick through, fullback dives on the ball less than a meter from the goal line.

The chaser pauses then grabs him by the shirt, drags him (still holding the ball) over the goal line then goes for the ball, which was definitely grounded (it was unclear who by).

What should I have given? I'm intentionally not saying what I gave to try not to bias answers.

If it was a tackle I would say PK for not releasing, but this is a Law 14 situation, and it only has this to say about players on their feet...

14.2 PLAYERS ON THEIR FEET
(a) Falling over the player on the ground with the ball. A player must not intentionally fall
on or over a player with the ball who is lying on the ground.
Sanction: Penalty kick
(b) Falling over players lying on the ground near the ball. A player must not intentionally fall
on or over players lying on the ground with the ball between them or near them.
Sanction: Penalty kick

I cannot see that the dragger has done anything illegal. My decision would be 5M scrum - attacking ball.

crossref
12-03-17, 08:03
Is it legal to drag someone across the ground?
I am not sure, what if two red players grab a blue player by his ankles and drag him 40m along the ground? Play on?? Surely not.

If it is legal then in this scenario, because there is doubt about who touched it down, it's a 5m scrum,
but the defender had touched it down we would have to decide who took the ball in goal, the dragged or the reluctant ball carrier?

Christy
12-03-17, 09:03
Ill go out on a limb .
Penalty try .

I hope my spelling is ok .
Ive been told off before for spelling mistakes .

DocY
12-03-17, 10:03
Thanks guys,

A couple of suggestions I hadn't thought of. I was thinking either attacking scrum or defending penalty.

I gave the attacking scrum - I couldn't see anything wrong with the drag and thought the defender had taken the ball into in goal.

If there's doubt about grounding you go on who took the ball into goal for the restart, don't you?

Camquin
12-03-17, 12:03
Is it legal to drag someone on the ground.



Law 7.1
Any player may tackle, hold or push an opponent holding the ball.


Why should a player who is off their feet have more rights than one on their feet?
If they are holding the ball I can push them.

Technically you cannot pull the ball carrier even if they are on their feet - but I suspect the referee who blew for that would get a lot of odd looks. That would be an attempted tackle.

Could I push/pull him/her 40m?
No - as under law 14 if they are off their feet they have to play the ball immediately
I cannot see how I could push or pull someone more than a metre immediately.

didds
12-03-17, 13:03
a pull is only a push in reverse.

didds

Camquin
12-03-17, 14:03
Unless you are a prop forward :-)

Paule23
12-03-17, 15:03
I'm thinking penalty against the dragger. This is not a tackle, however we do have a player on the floor. If this had been a tackle situation you would have had to release the player, dragging would result in a penalty. I would apply similar thoughts here, it cannot be the right answer that you are permitted to drag players across the pitch. I'm happy for players to contest for the ball when a defending player falls on a kick, but not play the man. Again this is playing the man on the floor, so I'm gonna give a penalty for the defenders.

ctrainor
12-03-17, 15:03
Same for me penalty to defence, attacker should have tried to play the ball. If he had tried to do that and fullback held on with nobody else around, he would probably have won a penalty try.

OB..
12-03-17, 15:03
This is not a tackle, however we do have a player on the floor. If this had been a tackle situation you would have had to release the player, dragging would result in a penalty. I would apply similar thoughts here, it cannot be the right answer that you are permitted to drag players across the pitch. I'm happy for players to contest for the ball when a defending player falls on a kick, but not play the man. Again this is playing the man on the floor, so I'm gonna give a penalty for the defenders.The laws simply do not say what should happen. It is not a tackle, so "release" is not relevant. The player on the ground is still the ball carrier and can legally play it. The opponent is prohibited from falling on him, but no other restriction is specified. He can't make a tackle because that requires him to bring the ball carrier to the ground (and he is already there).

Until WR decides to sort it out, we are on our own. I'll stick with the advice I was given as quoted above.

ChuckieB
12-03-17, 15:03
And what about the England vs Wales Game, and the chase back by Nowell pursued by Biggar, I think it was? Nowell gathered and went to ground when tackled by Biggar. Biggar clearly still had hold of him by the shirt as Nowell took his feet again. Everything in the same movement

So tackle was technically complete and yet Nowell didn't release ball and Biggar didn't release him. Play on. I can't make my mind up!

DocY
12-03-17, 15:03
So tackle was technically complete and yet Nowell didn't release ball and Biggar didn't release him. Play on. I can't make my mind up!

I thought that should have been a penalty against Nowell for not releasing the ball. He was brought to the ground and held, then got back to his feet, which he isn't allowed to do.

didds
12-03-17, 17:03
But isn't the mantra at a tackle something like brought to ground - tackler release - ball carrier release ball ?

In which case surely its pk against biggar? And both players and skippers get a short chat.

Didds

VM75
12-03-17, 18:03
I had an interesting one today:

Kick through, fullback dives on the ball less than a meter from the goal line.

The chaser pauses then grabs him by the shirt, drags him (still holding the ball) over the goal line then goes for the ball, which was definitely grounded (it was unclear who by).

What should I have given? I'm intentionally not saying what I gave to try not to bias answers.

If this practice is allowed to proliferate then where does it end? dragging a player by his shirt 20/30/40 meters down the pitch being legitimate rugby ??? , sorry not for me.

So I'm going with:
Clear & obviously dragging him along by his shirt isn't in the spirit of the game - PK against the dragger

As a coach i'd expect the chaser to go after the ball 100% , which means depending on the isolation of the defender could easily become a Penalty try if grounded fullback doesn't release it to him.

ChrisR
12-03-17, 19:03
Why PK the 'dragger' when the clear offender is the player who went to ground? Under Law 14 he must get up, pass or release the ball immediately. Clearly, he has failed to comply.

Paule23
12-03-17, 20:03
Why PK the 'dragger' when the clear offender is the player who went to ground? Under Law 14 he must get up, pass or release the ball immediately. Clearly, he has failed to comply.

Bit difficult to get up when someone is dragging you along the ground!

crossref
12-03-17, 20:03
Dragging an opponent along the ground for any distance strikes me as a potential flash point, and something in general to discourage.

Ian_Cook
12-03-17, 21:03
If this practice is allowed to proliferate then where does it end? dragging a player by his shirt 20/30/40 meters down the pitch being legitimate rugby ??? , sorry not for me.

So I'm going with:
Clear & obviously dragging him along by his shirt isn't in the spirit of the game - PK against the dragger

As a coach i'd expect the chaser to go after the ball 100% , which means depending on the isolation of the defender could easily become a Penalty try if grounded fullback doesn't release it to him.

Judgement is subjective. At what point do you decide that a late tackle is actually late... do you have a definitive number of 1/10ths of a second when you decide that a late tackle is actually late... 2/10ths? 4/10ths? 8/10ths? a second? Of course not... you use your judgement.

Dragging a player a short distance to touch or in-goal is fine. Dragging him 20/30/40 metres might be dangerous play... I'll judge the boundary between fine and not fine it when I see it.

You don't need a bright white line for every decision you make on a rugby field.


ETA

As an example, this might be considered OK in "the other code" but I would not like to see it allowed in ours, and I would probably penalise it for Dangerous Play under Law 10.4 (e)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_f5Rr93v_Q

Rich_NL
13-03-17, 10:03
Some of the arguments for penalising the attacker sound a lot like "But Sir, you have to let him up!"

If he can't stand up, he has to pass or release the ball.

crossref
13-03-17, 10:03
Some of the arguments for penalising the attacker sound a lot like "But Sir, you have to let him up!"

If he can't stand up, he has to pass or release the ball.

So if an extended drag is happening, quickly blow your whistle to put a stop to it, and penalise the guy on the ground.

The Fat
13-03-17, 10:03
Scenario:
Blue kick ahead and Blue 14 chases the kick. Red 15 gets to the ball, about 2m ahead of Blue 14, and goes to ground to gather the ball which he does just as Blue 14 arrives.

Question:
What is Blue 14 allowed to legally do?

ChuckieB
13-03-17, 10:03
Scenario:
Blue kick ahead and Blue 14 chases the kick. Red 15 gets to the ball, about 2m ahead of Blue 14, and goes to ground to gather the ball which he does just as Blue 14 arrives.

Question:
What is Blue 14 allowed to legally do?

What he is legally allowed to do is effectively dictated by the laws governing the player on the ground, who is effectively out of the game but allowed to get back into the game by the provisions of the laws and would allow him to pass from the ground which seems a bit counterintuitive but if he acts immediately then the laws allow it.

But we do know blue must not fall on the ball or him as he will effectively be out of the game and there are no laws that benefit him in that instant as he would be out of the game. Staying on his feet and attacking (jackling) the ball is effectively his only option. If the man gets to his feet then blue will have the tackle option.

......but we know that don't we?

crossref
13-03-17, 11:03
Scenario:
Blue kick ahead and Blue 14 chases the kick. Red 15 gets to the ball, about 2m ahead of Blue 14, and goes to ground to gather the ball which he does just as Blue 14 arrives.

Question:
What is Blue 14 allowed to legally do?

He can wait and let Red make the first move (surprisingly common) or he can try and take take the ball from him

DocY
13-03-17, 11:03
He can wait and let Red make the first move (surprisingly common)

I think that is fuelled by the myth that you have to let him up.

The Fat
13-03-17, 11:03
What he is legally allowed to do is effectively dictated by the laws governing the player on the ground, who is effectively out of the game but allowed to get back into the game by the provisions of the laws and would allow him to pass from the ground which seems a bit counterintuitive but if he acts immediately then the laws allow it.

But we do know blue must not fall on the ball or him as he will effectively be out of the game and there are no laws that benefit him in that instant as he would be out of the game. Staying on his feet and attacking (jackling) the ball is effectively his only option. If the man gets to his feet then blue will have the tackle option.

......but we know that don't we?

Thank you

The Fat
13-03-17, 11:03
He can wait and let Red make the first move (surprisingly common) or he can try and take take the ball from him

Well yes, that is probably a more complete answer.

The Fat
13-03-17, 11:03
I think that is fuelled by the myth that you have to let him up.

Some may see it that way however, if Blue 14 waits that split second to see what Red 15 is going to do (remembering that at this point Red 15 is probably isolated), it gives Blue 14 more options.
The best option is most likely what ChuckieB said. As soon as Blue 14, who is on his feet, attempts to take the ball, Red 15 must release. It is the most likely option that will either win possession or a PK for Blue 14.

None of Blue 14's options include grabbing Red 15's jersey and dragging him until he lets go of the ball.

Ian_Cook
13-03-17, 12:03
Scenario:
Blue kick ahead and Blue 14 chases the kick. Red 15 gets to the ball, about 2m ahead of Blue 14, and goes to ground to gather the ball which he does just as Blue 14 arrives.

Question:
What is Blue 14 allowed to legally do?

Anything other than what Law 14 says he cannot do, being....

14.2 PLAYERS ON THEIR FEET
(a) Falling over the player on the ground with the ball. A player must not intentionally fall
on or over a player with the ball who is lying on the ground.
Sanction: Penalty kick
(b) Falling over players lying on the ground near the ball. A player must not intentionally fall
on or over players lying on the ground with the ball between them or near them.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Blue 14 is also not allowed to do any act which other Laws of the game would deem foul play


None of Blue 14's options include grabbing Red 15's jersey and dragging him until he lets go of the ball.

its not excluded either

All Law 14 says with regards to players on their feet is what they are NOT allowed to do; it remains silent as to what they ARE allowed to do.

It is a fundamental tenet of the game that, in General Play, you can only play an opponent when he is in possession of the ball....an opponent on the ground holding the ball is in possession, so you can play him, but whatever you do, you must be on your feet.

7.1 PLAYING A MATCH
Any player may tackle, hold or push an opponent holding the ball.

Dragging is just a description of holding and walking in a direction.

DocY
13-03-17, 12:03
None of Blue 14's options include grabbing Red 15's jersey and dragging him until he lets go of the ball.

That's why I started the thread - it's not obvious to me that it isn't an option. If he'd been on his feet and in possession, there wouldn't have been an issue and all he's prohibited from doing is falling on the man on the ground, which he didn't do.

I agree that you shouldn't drag a player more than a short distance (left deliberately vague), but dragging a player a short distance - into touch or out of a ruck*, for example, is not uncommon and IMO shouldn't be penalised.

*when the player is on the ground killing the ball, I mean.

crossref
13-03-17, 12:03
I agree that you shouldn't drag a player more than a short distance (left deliberately vague), but dragging a player a short distance - into touch or out of a ruck, for example, is not uncommon and IMO shouldn't be penalised.

In practice I have only ever seen a drag into touch, and I probably never even as long as 1m, so play on (ie peep, touch)

But if a player embarked on (say) a ten-metre drag to the touchline, I think it would be be wise to blow your whistle.


A drag over the tryline I have never seen, and the incident in the OP strikes me as a clever / quick thinking action ! So in that specific incident, play on

The Fat
13-03-17, 12:03
That's why I started the thread - it's not obvious to me that it isn't an option. If he'd been on his feet and in possession, there wouldn't have been an issue and all he's prohibited from doing is falling on the man on the ground, which he didn't do.

I agree that you shouldn't drag a player more than a short distance (left deliberately vague), but dragging a player a short distance - into touch or out of a ruck*, for example, is not uncommon and IMO shouldn't be penalised.

*when the player is on the ground killing the ball, I mean.

Would you allow a defender to bring a ball carrier to the ground then drag him,
(a) 0.5m into touch?
(b) 1m into touch?
(c) 2m into touch?
(d) 2m in any direction?

didds
13-03-17, 12:03
A drag over the tryline I have never seen, and the incident in the OP strikes me as a clever / quick thinking action ! So in that specific incident, play on

yesss... but if he was that close to the tryline I'm not sure why he wouldn't try and grab the ball and score (or get a PT possibly). Other than a brain fart moment maybe :)

didds

didds
13-03-17, 12:03
and... what about not dragging a player into touch but grabbing a leg and placing it into touch, of a player on the ground holding the ball?

didds

DocY
13-03-17, 12:03
Would you allow a defender to bring a ball carrier to the ground then drag him,
(a) 0.5m into touch?
(b) 1m into touch?
(c) 2m into touch?
(d) 2m in any direction?

I wouldn't say there's a hard and fast rule about it, but half a meter to a meter into touch I probably wouldn't see as a problem. Likewise dragging a non BC away from the ball a 'reasonable distance' (which might be up to 2m), I wouldn't see as a problem.

But certainly seeing someone get dragged 5m would be a problem, though I don't know what law I'd invoke to penalise it. If the BC hasn't let go of the ball then he could be pinged for holding on, but if nobody's trying to take it off him, is it material?

I'd hope to be able to manage it before it got to PK territory, though.

ChuckieB
13-03-17, 13:03
Anything other than what Law 14 says he cannot do, being....

14.2 PLAYERS ON THEIR FEET
(a) Falling over the player on the ground with the ball. A player must not intentionally fall
on or over a player with the ball who is lying on the ground.
Sanction: Penalty kick
(b) Falling over players lying on the ground near the ball. A player must not intentionally fall
on or over players lying on the ground with the ball between them or near them.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Blue 14 is also not allowed to do any act which other Laws of the game would deem foul play



its not excluded either

All Law 14 says with regards to players on their feet is what they are NOT allowed to do; it remains silent as to what they ARE allowed to do.

It is a fundamental tenet of the game that, in General Play, you can only play an opponent when he is in possession of the ball....an opponent on the ground holding the ball is in possession, so you can play him, but whatever you do, you must be on your feet.

7.1 PLAYING A MATCH
Any player may tackle, hold or push an opponent holding the ball.



Sorry. Disagree. Trying to read too much into 7.1.

On the ground he is out of the game with law protocols on how he gets back into the game.

Under the circumstances you may only play the ball I firmly believe the tackle laws supports the principle, e.g.

The tackler must get up before playing the ball and then may play the ball.


You certainly can't tackle him as he has gone to ground.


Holding and pushing applies to maul and open play situations only, man on feet, is my judgement.

DocY
13-03-17, 13:03
Sorry. Disagree. Trying to read too much into 7.1.

On the ground he is out of the game with law protocols on how he gets back into the game.

Under the circumstances you may only play the ball I firmly believe the tackle laws supports the principle, e.g.

The tackler must get up before playing the ball and then may play the ball.


You certainly can't tackle him as he has gone to ground.


Holding and pushing applies to maul and open play situations only, man on feet, is my judgement.

7.1 is fairly fundamental to the game. It's telling you what you can do to any player holding the ball - whether on their feet or not is not mentioned. Law 14 deals with the more specific case, but that doesn't contradict 7.1 at all, only adding that you cannot fall on the player on the ground without excluding any of the rights bestowed under 7.1.
It's not a tackle, so the tackle law doesn't apply.

But I don't think scouring the law book is useful here. According to the law book, the situation will never arise - the player on the ground will immediately perform one of his options or be penalised. There wouldn't be a case where he'd be a ball carrier on the ground. Real life doesn't work quite so tidily.

ChuckieB
13-03-17, 13:03
7.1 is fairly fundamental to the game. It's telling you what you can do to any player holding the ball - whether on their feet or not is not mentioned. Law 14 deals with the more specific case, but that doesn't contradict 7.1 at all, only adding that you cannot fall on the player on the ground without excluding any of the rights bestowed under 7.1.
It's not a tackle, so the tackle law doesn't apply.

But I don't think scouring the law book is useful here. According to the law book, the situation will never arise - the player on the ground will immediately perform one of his options or be penalised. There wouldn't be a case where he'd be a ball carrier on the ground. Real life doesn't work quite so tidily.

Agree the tackle law does not directly apply. However it does help establish precedent for a related situation where a player is off his feet, and the ball only may be played. That's the way laws tend to work. The "reasonable" man, as the law likes to refer to us, might readily give more credence to what is said in law 14 and not law 7.

Whatever people's view. The onus is on the player 2nd to the ball to get it right, especially timing, as the laws tend to favour the 1st to the ball so long as he acts in accordance with the laws.

ChrisR
13-03-17, 14:03
This is deja vu all over again.

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?19904-Going-to-ground-to-gather-ball-Vs-tackled

ChuckieB
13-03-17, 14:03
This is deja vu all over again.

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?19904-Going-to-ground-to-gather-ball-Vs-tackled

.........and only up to 4 pages of posts!

....And guessing that by page 20 there were still one or two in dispute!

As I am new to the party I can only add, after careful consideration of my own interpretation and the views of others that I clearly fall on the side of the majority that this is straight forward, and the mighty laws stand as being robust!

Jolly Roger
13-03-17, 15:03
I had a similar situation in a match a couple of weeks ago where a player dived on a loose ball near the touch line and was then dragged 2m into touch by his arm. This looked wrong, it seemed wrong but I could not think of any reason to penalise the "dragger" so awarded the lineout. This resulted in challenge by the "ball carrier's" Captain and howls from the touchline. I have given this some thought since but I cannot think of anything in Law that would prevent dragging a ball carrier other than dangerous play. If the ball carrier was on his feet and was "pulled" into touch or over the try line then we would not be debating this.

I would, however, regard Ian Cook's video example from RL as dangerous play as the shirt is being dragged around the neck area.
This then poses the question, is there a difference between dragging a player by their shirt as opposed to their arm?

OB..
13-03-17, 15:03
This then poses the question, is there a difference between dragging a player by their shirt as opposed to their arm?The only question is whether or not you decide the play is dangerous.

didds
13-03-17, 16:03
well you could drag a player by their leg as well, but you'd have to ask ken catchpole about how dangerous pulling somebody's leg is...

didds

chbg
13-03-17, 20:03
well you could drag a player by their leg as well, but you'd have to ask ken catchpole about how dangerous pulling somebody's leg is...

Rugby incident, or dangerous play?

VM75
13-03-17, 21:03
Scenario:
Blue kick ahead and Blue 14 chases the kick. Red 15 gets to the ball, about 2m ahead of Blue 14, and goes to ground to gather the ball which he does just as Blue 14 arrives.

Question:
What is Blue 14 allowed to legally do?

Provided he doesn't infringe 14.2 [or any other Law] then he can do anything he chooses.

He could stand astride him, If player can't get up it forces him to execute one of the other two options (but it does risk a bump in the goolies should the player have any)


ps. Ian Cook seems to be saying that it's ok to drag a player along the ground by his shirt - but if so then for how far ? 30m? or 20?, 10? 5.5?, 3.42?, 1.99? 1.16m? to me it's better to just consider any open field dragging (ruck housekeeping being the only exception) that isn't say a bonafide 'tackle', to be unwelcome in the game.

didds
14-03-17, 09:03
Rugby incident, or dangerous play?

That being the entire point. You don;t know until its too late - and then its too late.

didds