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View Full Version : [Scrum] Scrum collapses on #8 pick



Huck2Spit
07-05-17, 14:05
Blue is awarded a scrum inside their own 22M. They yield the first push and their opponents in White are winning the ball. Ball gets to White #8 who picks the ball up (ball is in hand but he's not fully gotten away from the scrum) in that instant blue gets their drive on and pushes back collapsing the whole thing on to the #8. I blow the collaspe looks unsafe and award another scrum to blue. Same outcome for my two possible interpretations, right?
1) Collaspe scrum reset to blue (however scrum was technically over half a second before Collaspe.) Is the scum going down always a Whistle for safety even if ball is away?
2) accidental off-sides since white#8 was pushed into by players in front of him without possibly being purposely done. (A PK there seems harsh/ ridiculous).

Taff
07-05-17, 15:05
Right, I'll have a bash.

As the scrum was technically over, I would say it was a safety stoppage so, restart with a scrum - throw in to White as they were in possession.

tim White
07-05-17, 15:05
Scrum is not over until number 8 breaks his bind AND picks up the ball; he seems to have done this, your call was for safety so should be scrum restart to team in possession- White.

What did the payers think?- I doubt anyone was sure!

beckett50
07-05-17, 15:05
SAFETY
EQUITY

If you felt it to be unsafe then you are correct to blow the whistle and reset the scrum.

As long as both teams are happy with the 'Blue put-in' call then no problem - although not strictly correct in Law as Tim alludes above.

didds
07-05-17, 16:05
I'd say white scrum too, based on the OP.

didds

Paule23
07-05-17, 17:05
As long as both teams are happy with the 'Blue put-in' call then no problem

I'm not sure the teams being happy or not should have much consideration. I suppose if we are implying the ref made a technical mistake, but neither team was that fussed, then no problem. But either way, whatever the ref decides goes and both teams should respect that. If mistakes have been made, maybe point them out and agree to a discussion in the bar afterwards.

I have a unique skill in that I can usually annoy both teams at the same time. Probably why I'm not a top level ref.......

Pegleg
07-05-17, 19:05
The WRU advised that below the premiership level and collapsed scrum was was to be reset with the same side having the put in. This meant the change in the law on playing on / advantage etc did not apply below the semi pro level. Before the change we had been instructed that we reset even if the ball has moved away from the scrum.

To my knowledge we have not had any change to that instruction.


No Play on, we MUST either Penalise or "RESET".


For my Welsh colleagues the memo is date 22 August 2016 and is signed by Nigel Whitehouse.

Dickie E
08-05-17, 00:05
If White #8 had broken his bind then been unscussessful in picking up the ball I would go with penalty against White #8.

However, as he did pick it up (ie scrum over) I'd go with Blue scrum as Blue going forward.

20.4 (d) Scrum after any other stoppage. After any other stoppage or irregularity not covered by Law, the team that was moving forward before the stoppage throws in the ball.

Dickie E
08-05-17, 00:05
Is the scum going down always a Whistle for safety even if ball is away?


For juniors, Yes.

Fo seniors, No (unless you have reason to believe a serious injury has occurred).

Pegleg
08-05-17, 07:05
For juniors, Yes.

Fo seniors, No (unless you have reason to believe a serious injury has occurred).

Care needed. The WRU takes a different stance to you in Australia ( as per my previous post). Huck2 Spit needs to take guidence from his own union / knowledgeable referees in that union.

didds
08-05-17, 09:05
The WRU advised that below the premiership level and collapsed scrum was was to be reset with the same side having the put in. This meant the change in the law on playing on / advantage etc did not apply below the semi pro level. Before the change we had been instructed that we reset even if the ball has moved away from the scrum.

To my knowledge we have not had any change to that instruction.


No Play on, we MUST either Penalise or "RESET".


For my Welsh colleagues the memo is date 22 August 2016 and is signed by Nigel Whitehouse.

The ball was already out, in the #8s hands. He just wasn't - it seems - a significant distance from the scrum. But the scrum - going by the OP - was over.

otherwise if the centre has the ball through a gap and about to score the defenders can just "fall over" in the scrum and get the action stopped.

didds

ChuckieB
08-05-17, 09:05
If the ball is out, resetting the scrum makes not a whole load of sense in my opinion. If the ball is immediately available, resetting the scrum makes not a whole load of sense in my opinion.

However do see and understand the requirement not to apply the latter protocol lower down the ability ladder. It's a different dynamic entirely. I believe I would still be required to err on the side of caution.

Also I am now observing "slippages" in Super Rugby protocols with more instances in the ball being "almost" available and refs looking to play on. So maybe a reality check needed there?


I question:,"When do you ever see play stopped across the park purely on the basis of safety at the highest levels?". We have players getting themselves into all sorts of bother at breakdowns and then being pinged for not rolling away. Yes a stoppage, but hardly on safety grounds?

DocY
08-05-17, 10:05
I have a unique skill in that I can usually annoy both teams at the same time. Probably why I'm not a top level ref.......

It's not unique. I do that too :)

Pegleg
08-05-17, 12:05
The ball was already out, in the #8s hands. He just wasn't - it seems - a significant distance from the scrum. But the scrum - going by the OP - was over.

otherwise if the centre has the ball through a gap and about to score the defenders can just "fall over" in the scrum and get the action stopped.

didds

I know but the WRU have told us if the front rows go down or up reset or ping no matter. The safety issue for the front rows does not end until the scrum formation has broken up SAFELY. It's not for me to act contray to Union directives.

ChrisR
08-05-17, 12:05
The scrum has ended successfully and White has possession. If you deem subsequent play to be unsafe then award a White scrum.

didds
08-05-17, 12:05
I know but the WRU have told us if the front rows go down or up reset or ping no matter. The safety issue for the front rows does not end until the scrum formation has broken up SAFELY. It's not for me to act contray to Union directives.

oh absolutely Pegleg.

It just not what the laws were intended for. But your actions are correct wrt your guidance I can see, and agree.

didds

ChrisR
08-05-17, 13:05
Concerning collapsed scrums and the Laws:

In 2015 World Rugby decided to modify the laws to allow an available ball to be played away from a collapsed scrum.

For the 2016 Laws they removed this Advantage law 8.3(d) Collapsed scrum. Advantage must not be applied when a scrum collapses. The referee must blow the whistle immediately.

However, they left in Scrum law 20.3(h) Scrum collapse. If a scrum collapses, the referee must blow the whistle immediately so that players stop pushing.

I wrote to Laws@rfu.com and got this reply from Dave Broadwell:

Hi Chris
The RFU has written to world rugby stating it is a serious omission in law 8 to leave out collapsed scrum when advantage should not be played.
Northern Hemisphere Referee Societies have been instructed not to make reference to the 2016 Law book until the commencement of next season.
There are many 'discrepancies' where clarification is sought.
Regards
Dave Broadwell

World Rugby removed 20.3(h) from the 2017 Laws.

In summation:

World Rugby decides it's OK to play the ball away from a collapsed scrum, the RFU said they didn't think so, WR says "It's not your call".

Sounds like the WRU thinks it is or Pegleg didn't get the secret email.

DocY
08-05-17, 14:05
The advice Pegleg lists sounds perfectly sensible to me. Safety is paramount and you'd be on a bit of a sticky wicket if there was an injury and you said "technically the scrum was over" when you've still got 15 guys pushing.

And it's not just a safety issue. Collapsed scrums are potential flash points and a quick whistle will help with that.

That said. If one team has clearly won the ball before the collapse I think it's equitable to give them the put in, though I don't think that's supported in law.

Pegleg
08-05-17, 15:05
Concerning collapsed scrums and the Laws:

In 2015 World Rugby decided to modify the laws to allow an available ball to be played away from a collapsed scrum.

For the 2016 Laws they removed this Advantage law 8.3(d) Collapsed scrum. Advantage must not be applied when a scrum collapses. The referee must blow the whistle immediately.

However, they left in Scrum law 20.3(h) Scrum collapse. If a scrum collapses, the referee must blow the whistle immediately so that players stop pushing.

I wrote to Laws@rfu.com and got this reply from Dave Broadwell:

Hi Chris
The RFU has written to world rugby stating it is a serious omission in law 8 to leave out collapsed scrum when advantage should not be played.
Northern Hemisphere Referee Societies have been instructed not to make reference to the 2016 Law book until the commencement of next season.
There are many 'discrepancies' where clarification is sought.
Regards
Dave Broadwell

World Rugby removed 20.3(h) from the 2017 Laws.

In summation:

World Rugby decides it's OK to play the ball away from a collapsed scrum, the RFU said they didn't think so, WR says "It's not your call".

Sounds like the WRU thinks it is or Pegleg didn't get the secret email.




I got the email thanks



the memo is date 22 August 2016 and is signed by Nigel Whitehouse.

The WRU is allowed to, as is any union, at the amateur level which is made clear in my post. With all due respect, I'll obey them and not you.

didds
08-05-17, 15:05
meanwhile... "World Rugby decides it's OK to play the ball away from a collapsed scrum, the RFU said they didn't think so, WR says "It's not your call"."

do we have a source for this?

didds

ChrisR
08-05-17, 17:05
Yes, read the sequence in post 17.

In the 2016 laws they removed the advantage law bit but overlooked the scrum law bit. RFU sent a note (as per David Broadwell of the RFU) saying they didn't agree with that.

Then the next year they took out the scrum law bit. To me that indicates that they ignored (or didn't agree with) the RFU position.

So now in 2017 law, if the scrum collapses the referee is not required to blow it up and may let the ball be played away.

The referee can still blow it up if he thinks it dangerous and clearly that is how the RFU and WRU see it.

Furthermore, note these changes:

2015 Advantage law 8.3(e) Player lifted in the air. Advantage must not be applied when a player in a scrum is lifted in the air or forced upwards out of the scrum. The referee must blow the whistle immediately.
2015 Scrum law 20.3(i) Player forced upwards. If a player in a scrum is lifted in the air, or is forced upwards out of the scrum, the referee must blow the whistle immediately so that players stop pushing.

2017 Advantage law 8.3(d) Player lifted in the air. Advantage must not be applied when a player in a scrum is lifted in the air or forced upwards and has no support on the ground. The referee must blow the whistle immediately.
2017 Scrum law 20.3(h) Player forced upwards. If a player in a scrum is lifted in the air , or is forced upwards out of the scrum , the referee must blow the whistle immediately so that players stop pushing.

It was WR's intent to stop requiring referees to halt a scrum if a front row popped up if he had his feet on the ground. So they changed the Advantage law (done in 2016) but overlooked the scrum law again.

Again, the intent of the change was to remove the requirement for a whistle.

One more thing: There is NO sanction attached to 20.3(h) because it is not an offence (in and of itself) to stand up.

Pegleg
08-05-17, 18:05
I am glad you have seen the point. I fully see what WR wanted but the WRU havr said not at Amateur Level. So the discussion is pointless.

What is crucial is that people remember that different unions have different practices / rulings and people must be careful not to badly advise based on their own countries practice. Unions can be stricter than WR's requirements but they can not ease up on the Laws.

Dickie E
08-05-17, 22:05
That said. If one team has clearly won the ball before the collapse I think it's equitable to give them the put in, though I don't think that's supported in law.

What is supported in law is that the team moving forward gets the put in

Pegleg
09-05-17, 07:05
What is supported in law is that the team moving forward gets the put in

For us it is either a penalty OR a reset. So, the same side gets the put in.

It is one of the dangers of forums like this, that referees might not refer to their own union / society for detail that is, possibly specific to them. For me to apply Aussie protocol or for you to adopt that of the WRU would be potentially dangerous and at least inconsistent with fellow referees.

Dickie E
09-05-17, 08:05
For us it is either a penalty OR a reset. So, the same side gets the put in.

It is one of the dangers of forums like this, that referees might not refer to their own union / society for detail that is, possibly specific to them. For me to apply Aussie protocol or for you to adopt that of the WRU would be potentially dangerous and at least inconsistent with fellow referees.

Yes, of course.