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Shelflife
14-10-17, 13:10
I was AR in a game recently, a few levels above my reffing level.

Red 14 had the ball inside the blue 22 and kicked ahead down the touchline, red 15 jumps to block the kick and deliberately IMO moves his body (leg) to impede Red 14 who goes to ground.

I flag the incident and look back to conform the blue number, red pick up the ball and go over for a try.

Blue complain that ball was in touch , when I looked back it was in the field of play.

Ref blows whistle and discusses, hes happy that its not a pen and even if it was we play advantage and red scored a try.

Blue are insisting that the ball went out of play. Neither I or the ref have seen this, the crowd are of the same opinion.

My question is , should I have concentrated on the ball or the potential foul play or was it just one of those things that you simply cant be watching two things at once.

Taff
14-10-17, 14:10
For what it's worth, I was told the ARs primary duty is touch, touch in goal and kicks at goal. Anything else is a bonus.

Having said that, I think you could make a good case for arguing that spotting dangerous play trumps kicks to touch. :chin: The blunt truth is people expect you to do both .... but we are only human.

didds
14-10-17, 17:10
so where they clai9ming that the ball landed in touch and bounced into the FoP, or bonced IN, then OUT then IN again?

Cos otherwise I'm not sure how it coud have been in touch from the OP ?

didds

Rushforth
14-10-17, 18:10
With at least a factor of a hundred separating my experience as a TJ compared to an AR, first of all, well done on spotting the incident.

As a rule of thumb, when play gets closer to touch than 5 metres (conveniently marked for the front of the lineout), your focus should be on whether the ball - or any part of the ball-carrier - goes into touch. If play is in your side of the field, you are "leading", and if play is on the other side you are "trailing". In each of these cases you are also "triangulating", that is to say trying to get a different picture than the referee.

The times that I have AR'd have generally had briefings which varied wildly in length and desires of the referee. The one thing I can't recall is "priority". I've often enough briefed "volunteers" as TJ on what I want, and in the case of "afters" I just ask some of them (if mature and available for the whole match) to tell the players to get on with the game.

If there is a bit of niggle in the game, at any level, safety is more important than the letter of the law. With a team of three (or four) you can see more than on your own, but if a defender trips a player chasing their own kick, then with the exception of the defending side - who are in the wrong - nobody should mind what you choose to do, namely get the number of the offender.

Blue shouldn't be complaining either. (By the way, you have a typo with "red 15"). Their fullback is lucky not to be having a ten-minute rest.

Remember that at an even higher level an AR may study the names and faces of all 40+ players for quicker identification. If you feel the need to identify a player for foul play and that stops you from performing other duties, you need to do so until you have the number.

In short: you did the right thing in my book.

Shelflife
14-10-17, 18:10
Hi Didds , they claimed it originally bounced in , then out , then back in again.

ChrisR
14-10-17, 20:10
"If Blue 15 (typo corrected) hadn't committed foul play I wouldn't have looked back to get his number. But he did, and I did and if the ball went to touch I didn't see it. So blame Blue 15."

Christy
14-10-17, 22:10
Hi shelf .
Can i ask the level of game , as in was it AIL , domestic or was it professional rugby .
In irfu land , even though we listed as AR,s ( AIL & below ) ,, we are in fact touch judges .

Our primary duties are touch , touch in goal & kick at goal .
The ref would usually brief us as in what assistance he would like ,,but its 1stly our touch duties we concentrate on and be clued on with 22 line incase ball passed back similar & kicked out on full . And every ref i have been AR has always suggested we stick to primary duties & only call for foul play if we are not leaving our primary duties .of touch ( your wording above reads to me , that maybe you left your touch duties to go for foul play duties )

Ive often been asked to assist also ,
Where try is scored in corner , & if we got there before ref , to do our best to see if try has been scored , or has player gone into touch in goal , or over dead ball line .
If ref looks our way for a gentle nod , only then do we offer assistance .

I have found opposition players & their supporters will always try & influence our touch judging duties , on close calls .
Fortunately ive never let any decision be influenced , including your scenario above ,as in ball in & out etc . .

Personally , if i had a choice between looking for potential touch coming my way , mixed with high tensity rugby ,,i always primary focus on touch .
As another posted correctly suggested .
We track & trail .
When it comes your way , focus on area for touch only , when ball is leaving to other side , trail for foul play .

SimonSmith
15-10-17, 00:10
Standard AR briefing:
Don't make the referee look a c**t

Dickie E
15-10-17, 00:10
Standard AR briefing:
Don't make the referee look a c**t

... cos he can do that all on his own :)

Pegleg
15-10-17, 11:10
Hi shelf .
Can i ask the level of game , as in was it AIL , domestic or was it professional rugby .
In irfu land , even though we listed as AR,s ( AIL & below ) ,, we are in fact touch judges .



I'm sure that Shelflife as an IRFU LEVEL 3 knows whether he was apointed and an AR or acting as a TJ. I'd also guess he understands the primary duties.

Pegleg
15-10-17, 11:10
On another point: Safety trumps everything and if there is a potential flash. That would take priority oven if I was act in a a TJ rather than being appointed to AR.

No one ever got hurt from touch being missed. I'm with ChrisR (Post 6) It was the fault of the person commiting the foul play that touch mat have been missed by the AR. "Tell you what Blue 15, Explain to your coach why I had to watch you instead of the ball while you take a break in the bin!"

Shelflife
15-10-17, 12:10
Christy it was AIL Level, and yes you are correct that we are technically TJs. That said on occasion we can be miked up to the ref and the better ones arenít afraid to ask/take our advice.

I suppose itís damned if you do and damned if you donít . If I follow the ball , I miss foul play less than 3m from me, if I follow the foul play I miss the ball in/out touch.

There was no evidence that it did actually go out of play, there was an assessor there that never mentioned the incident at all after the match and the red players said it didnít go out (even after the game).

Phil E
15-10-17, 17:10
Christy it was AIL Level, and yes you are correct that we are technically TJs

It's important to know the difference. In RFU land....
A TJ cannot flag foul play, they are there to mark touch and kicks at goal, that's as far as their responsibilities go.
An AR (who will have done a Society AR course or equivalent) has the power to flag Foul play and anything else the referee asks of him.

If a TJ was to flag foul play and it resulted in a card, the TJ would have to write the report....at which point it would be thrown out as he does no the have the authority to do so.

dickell
15-10-17, 21:10
It's important to know the difference. In RFU land....
A TJ cannot flag foul play, they are there to mark touch and kicks at goal, that's as far as their responsibilities go.
An AR (who will have done a Society AR course or equivalent) has the power to flag Foul play and anything else the referee asks of him.

If a TJ was to flag foul play and it resulted in a card, the TJ would have to write the report....at which point it would be thrown out as he does no the have the authority to do so.



Thatís interesting, Phil. I was on the RFU TJ panel right at its inception in 1990, long before the term AR had been invented, and before radio comms twixt ref and TJs existed. My very first match, on the first day of the system, was up at Sarries v Moseley in Southgate. We had no official kit nor even flags! Sarries had to scamper around to find flags for us! Our ref for that match was no less than Roger Q.
The purpose of our existence was to indicate foul play, as well as touch. Roger accepted my report of a stamp within 10 min or so, and awarded a penalty accordingly.
Nearly all refs in those days accepted our assistance willingly, though there was a famous one from Liverpool, who I was told preferred to do things his way.

Shelflife
15-10-17, 22:10
Phil E we have flagging powers.

In the event of an injury to the ref we would replace them.

Dickie E
15-10-17, 23:10
Phil E we have flagging powers.



Powers diminish as game progresses? :)

Dickie E
15-10-17, 23:10
It's important to know the difference. In RFU land....
A TJ cannot flag foul play, they are there to mark touch and kicks at goal, that's as far as their responsibilities go.
An AR (who will have done a Society AR course or equivalent) has the power to flag Foul play and anything else the referee asks of him.

If a TJ was to flag foul play and it resulted in a card, the TJ would have to write the report....at which point it would be thrown out as he does no the have the authority to do so.

and, as I understand it in RFU land, the AR has to be appointed to the game. So if Wayne Barnes was strolling past and offered to run touch, he would be a TJ, not an AR.

Taff
15-10-17, 23:10
Christy it was AIL Level, and yes you are correct that we are technically TJs.

Phil E we have flagging powers. In the event of an injury to the ref we would replace them.

If by "flagging powers" you mean you can signal Foul Play, and you have presumably been appointed to that game, that makes you a de facto AR, doesn't it?

Pegleg
15-10-17, 23:10
It's important to know the difference. In RFU land....
A TJ cannot flag foul play, they are there to mark touch and kicks at goal, that's as far as their responsibilities go.
An AR (who will have done a Society AR course or equivalent) has the power to flag Foul play and anything else the referee asks of him.

If a TJ was to flag foul play and it resulted in a card, the TJ would have to write the report....at which point it would be thrown out as he does no the have the authority to do so.

Yes a rule of the RFU but not in Wales or, from Shelflife's later post, the IRFU either. I take Taff's point that if you give TJs power to act as more than a TJ you are effectively making them ARs. So bst call them that.

WR differentiates between the two and whilst the IRFU can give any flag bearer the powers of an AR , if they call tham TJs they are muddying the waters.

Shelflife
16-10-17, 00:10
If by "flagging powers" you mean you can signal Foul Play, and you have presumably been appointed to that game, that makes you a de facto AR, doesn't it?
In effect yes , but even though we are appointed and have flagging powers we are still officially refereed to as TJs.

Not it sure what the logic behind it is .

Dickie E
16-10-17, 00:10
In effect yes , but even though we are appointed and have flagging powers we are still officially refereed to as TJs.



as in "touchie, are your f***ing eyes painted on?!!!"

Pegleg
16-10-17, 08:10
and, as I understand it in RFU land, the AR has to be appointed to the game. So if Wayne Barnes was strolling past and offered to run touch, he would be a TJ, not an AR.

Same here we just don't have a a specific course / qualification.

crossref
16-10-17, 08:10
In effect yes , but even though we are appointed and have flagging powers we are still officially refereed to as TJs.

Not it sure what the logic behind it is .

I think this is a confusion. The whole difference between a TJ and an AR is that the AR has been officially appointed

Dickie E
16-10-17, 09:10
I think this is a confusion. The whole difference between a TJ and an AR is that the AR has been officially appointed

but only in RFU land and some other exotic places.

Tell me, if one of the ARs doesn't show (traffic, etc), does the other AR have regular AR powers? Who runs the other line?

ChuckieB
16-10-17, 09:10
And at what level pray tell, does it become adviseable or a requirement to have an AR (a luxury in most cases I suspect) rather than just having to rely on the informal appointment of a TJ.

crossref
16-10-17, 10:10
I don't know .. L6 ?
But we also appoint AR for lower level games that are special .. cup finals , last game of season top of table clash , other special games

Pegleg
16-10-17, 10:10
but only in RFU land and some other exotic places.

Tell me, if one of the ARs doesn't show (traffic, etc), does the other AR have regular AR powers? Who runs the other line?

Wales , Exotic? I heard our beautiful country describe in many ways but never exotic!

Here If one AR fails to attend and a replacement is available a quick call to the office will, usually, get the replacement made official.

crossref
16-10-17, 10:10
and, as I understand it in RFU land, the AR has to be appointed to the game. So if Wayne Barnes was strolling past and offered to run touch, he would be a TJ, not an AR.

If it was me I think it would work out better all round if WB became the referee, and I would act as his AR !

Dickie E
16-10-17, 11:10
If it was me I think it would work out better all round if WB became the referee, and I would act as his AR !

except you couldn't cos you weren't appointed as AR. Best you could do is TJ

chbg
16-10-17, 12:10
except you couldn't cos you weren't appointed as AR. Best you could do is TJ

WB would also have to be appointed, even if at the last minute, so CR could be appointed as the AR at the same time.

Shelflife
16-10-17, 17:10
If only one of the appointed TJs/ARs doesnít turn up then you are downgraded to a Reg TJ with no flagging powers.

Dickie E
16-10-17, 21:10
If only one of the appointed TJs/ARs doesn’t turn up then you are downgraded to a Reg TJ with no flagging powers.

So you can only have 2 ARs or 2 TJs - not one of each?

Shelflife
16-10-17, 23:10
So you can only have 2 ARs or 2 TJs - not one of each?

Effectively yes , which is a total pain in the arse if ever the other AR doesn't turn up.

Dickie E
16-10-17, 23:10
Effectively yes , which is a total pain in the arse if ever the other AR doesn't turn up.

That is bizarre and I really struggle to see any logic to it. So you rock up, all ready to be an AR, and because Fred, the other AR, is stuck in traffic, you're only a TJ & have to turn a blind eye to foul play.

What happens if Fred gets there at half time, are you both ARs for the 2nd half? If so, can you then report the punch that occurred at 39 minutes in the first half?

It's very diiferent here (& better, IMO). Over here, if you have an AR qualification then you are an official AR at any game where they stick a flag in your hand.

ChuckieB
17-10-17, 00:10
That is bizarre and I really struggle to see any logic to it. So you rock up, all ready to be an AR, and because Fred, the other AR, is stuck in traffic, you're only a TJ & have to turn a blind eye to foul play.

What happens if Fred gets there at half time, are you both ARs for the 2nd half? If so, can you then report the punch that occurred at 39 minutes in the first half?

It's very diiferent here (& better, IMO). Over here, if you have an AR qualification then you are an official AR at any game where they stick a flag in your hand.

what if you have a refereeing qualification? Does that qualify you to be an AR as regards running the line?

Jarrod Burton
17-10-17, 09:10
what if you have a refereeing qualification? Does that qualify you to be an AR as regards running the line?

As I understand it (after being told by one of the ARU ref coaches less than 6 weeks ago) Referee Level 1 does not give you the ability to be an AR, but if this is true, it is an example of the stupidity of the modern world.

ChuckieB
17-10-17, 09:10
As I understand it (after being told by one of the ARU ref coaches less than 6 weeks ago) Referee Level 1 does not give you the ability to be an AR, but if this is true, it is an example of the stupidity of the modern world.

Special understanding of the touchline paperwork and admin perhaps?

Pegleg
21-10-17, 19:10
As I understand it (after being told by one of the ARU ref coaches less than 6 weeks ago) Referee Level 1 does not give you the ability to be an AR, but if this is true, it is an example of the stupidity of the modern world.


Surely that depends upon what the L1 qualification is in Aus. Here I doubt you would be appointed as an aR if you were L1.

TigerCraig
22-10-17, 05:10
Surely that depends upon what the L1 qualification is in Aus. Here I doubt you would be appointed as an aR if you were L1.

99% (or at least the vast majority) of refs in Australia are L1. That let's you referee any amateur game. Many like me have done the Level 2 theory but never bothered to get the full accreditation. As has been said before, anyone here with an Ar accreditation is an Ar with full powers anytime they are on a sideline with a flag - appointed or not, and no game is supposed to kick off unless there are 2 accredited AR's

crossref
22-10-17, 07:10
How does an accredited AR end up on the sideline without being appointed ?
Do they prowl local rugby clubs with a flag in their pocket ,taking control of a touchline when no one is looking ?

TigerCraig
22-10-17, 07:10
Because every team must have one, or they don't play. At my club we send two or three parents from each junior team to the course each pre season and make sure we have at least one at every game our senior team play - usually me or my son

ChuckieB
22-10-17, 08:10
Such a structure would only allow you to act as a TJ, surely?

TigerCraig
22-10-17, 09:10
Such a structure would only allow you to act as a TJ, surely?

Which part of "anyone with an official AR accreditation has the full authority of an AR and all teams are required to provide an accredited AR" causes confusion?

crossref
22-10-17, 10:10
Because every team must have one, or they don't play. At my club we send two or three parents from each junior team to the course each pre season and make sure we have at least one at every game our senior team play - usually me or my son

To me that feels like they are appointed , one by each club, ie duly appointed according to the regulations in place that give each club the power - and the obligation - to appoint ARs

TigerCraig
22-10-17, 10:10
To me that feels like they are appointed , one by each club, ie duly appointed according to the regulations in place that give each club the power - and the obligation - to appoint ARs

100%.

ChuckieB
22-10-17, 11:10
The bit that says the AR will no doubt act with absolute impartiality when officiating in own club games. It makes absolute sense to differentiates the two roles. At what point does a self professed impartiality become a problem?

Pegleg
22-10-17, 11:10
99% (or at least the vast majority) of refs in Australia are L1. That let's you referee any amateur game. Many like me have done the Level 2 theory but never bothered to get the full accreditation. As has been said before, anyone here with an Ar accreditation is an Ar with full powers anytime they are on a sideline with a flag - appointed or not, and no game is supposed to kick off unless there are 2 accredited AR's

Again highlighting the differnce between countries and the importance of cvorrect terminology. Here we have:

L1 - You can referee up to U16.
L2 - You can referee anything up to Youth and what used to be called "district" rugby.
L3 - You can referee in the Welsh League system. (this level has internal sub divisions. So Nigel O is a L3 in Wales but can referee higher than me).

All refs and indeed anyone can act as a TJ.
All L2 and L3 refs can be appointed to act as an AR.

I can't rock up as say: "I'll be AR for you". Formal appointment has to happen.

Games under our "championship" will not have ARs and last season I ran touch in the last 16 of the Welsh cup but was not an AR as it was club provided TJs I justhappened to be a ref. The other side provided a committee man to do the job.

The Op (Irish) will work within their protocols.They may be very different or the same as yours or mine.

Pegleg
22-10-17, 12:10
Because every team must have one, or they don't play. At my club we send two or three parents from each junior team to the course each pre season and make sure we have at least one at every game our senior team play - usually me or my son

Is there not a, potential, issue with a CLUB guy calling foul play anf possibly advising that a person from the other team be red carded?

TigerCraig
22-10-17, 12:10
Is there not a, potential, issue with a CLUB guy calling foul play anf possibly advising that a person from the other team be red carded?

Of course, but in my experience the guys doing it take the job seriously. Most wear a distinctive shirt and are proud of the job they do. I've had guys report foul play and advise non awarding of tries against their own clubs plenty of times. Clubs and individuals soon get a reputation. Rugby here is a very small community

Jarrod Burton
23-10-17, 01:10
Is there not a, potential, issue with a CLUB guy calling foul play anf possibly advising that a person from the other team be red carded?

I had this happen to me in my first senior game, between the two teams which ended up playing the grand final. Pretty ferocious game that was extremely physical and a fair bit of niggle which I didn't really deal with well enough. Both AR's were appointed, one neutral but the other was a L1 referee/AR from the home club. At 73 minutes with the home team down by 4, a very messy ruck occurred where the ball was turned over twice. The home AR flagged an incident as I saw a penalty against G11 for a side entry clean out and was going to the bin after a team warning. Stopped the game and got his report which consisted of "Green 11 stomping on Black player on the floor behind the ruck". I know the player who he claimed made the stomp and I'm thinking I'll eat my hat if he did that.
Me "Ok, confirming that is was stomping of a player not in a ruck"
Him "Oh yeah danced all over him"
Me "Sanction Recommendation please?"
Him As his expression changed to realise what I was thinking of calling his bluff "Oh, only a yellow, was only one stamp."
Me "Really? A Yellow? (vigorous nodding from him)." Now I'm thinking BS. "Nope, Dancing on someone means Red Card, but you are doing the paperwork".
Walked over to the Captain and G11, told him the sequence of events, issued the card and told him I'd talk to him after the match.

After the game, the confused player wanted to know what was happening, was he going to get suspended, etc. I told him that I'd write in the report what I saw and the behaviour of the AR and that the AR would need to outline what happened in his report, which I didn't think would happen so not to worry about it. AR never submitted a report and the player was not sanctioned, with the RC removed from him record. Maybe I shouldn't have called his bluff but the Green club still laugh about it every time I visit.....

didds
23-10-17, 07:10
OOI, did the RC potentially affect the result?

didds

Pegleg
23-10-17, 08:10
Me "Ok, confirming that is was stomping of a player not in a ruck"
Him "Oh yeah danced all over him"
Me "Sanction Recommendation please?"
Him As his expression changed to realise what I was thinking of calling his bluff "Oh, only a yellow, was only one stamp."
Me "Really? A Yellow? (vigorous nodding from him)." Now I'm thinking BS. "Nope, Dancing on someone means Red Card, but you are doing the paperwork".
Walked over to the Captain and G11, told him the sequence of events, issued the card and told him I'd talk to him after the match.

After the game, the confused player wanted to know what was happening, was he going to get suspended, etc. I told him that I'd write in the report what I saw and the behaviour of the AR and that the AR would need to outline what happened in his report, which I didn't think would happen so not to worry about it. AR never submitted a report and the player was not sanctioned, with the RC removed from him record. Maybe I shouldn't have called his bluff but the Green club still laugh about it every time I visit.....

Coople of issues here;
Bold bit: Poor choice of wording!
Better something along the line of: " So let me make sure I understand. Green 11 stomping on Black player on the floor behind the ruck. Dancing all over him. Is that right?" Reply is then either:
"correct" in which case you are describibe a RED CARD offence. Have I understood you correctly"
If he says: "NO it was just one stamp" You make your call or possibly ask now for his recomendation if you think you need to.

Why would you have asked for a recomndation when you clearly thought it was a red card? YOU TAKE CONTROL NOT THE AR!

Whatever happens your words to the Captain were poor!

"Captain This is what we have. AR has seen Green 11 stamp on a Black player on the ground. Outcome is red / yellow card against Green 11 and a PK". You do not tell him that you will include in your report "the behaviour of the AR". You have just blown the To3 into the air. A a captain I'd have now lost all respect in you are a referee.

Mind you it sounds like a poor choice of apointment for your first senior game.


WRT reports. AFTER the game tell the AR you will prepare your card report and you will ring him Tonight /tomorrow evening to get his report. It is down to you to control that as well. YOU are the ref. YOU are the "manager" of the To3.

Pegleg
23-10-17, 08:10
OOI, did the RC potentially affect the result?

didds

Does it really matter. Potentially the player faced a ban etc for a, seemingly, dodgy call.

didds
23-10-17, 08:10
Coople of issues here;
Why would you have asked for a recomndation when you clearly thought it was a red card?

I read the above to be because the ref wanted to ensure it was the (perceived biased) AR that made the actual call, even if that is against the normal protocols, because the ref didn't think it likely based on knowledge of the player concerned.

didds

didds
23-10-17, 08:10
Does it really matter. Potentially the player faced a ban etc for a, seemingly, dodgy call.

well maybe Ive read the OP wrongly but it seems to me that


* the AR called the player on an alleged stamp.
* the ref didn't think the player did it based on knowledge of said player
* the ref however cannot definitively say it didn;t happen
* the ref is somewhat duty bound to act on the advice of a AR
* the ref thus left the entire onus on the AR to make the call, giving hi sopportunities to back down
* the sanction was in line with what was reported
* the ref thought it was BS and the report wouldn't go through

So he was pretty sure the player was "safe" - so the only impact was that the result may have been affected with that side playing a man down.

That all said I am uncomfortable that a player got RCd for something he didn't do too, and the team may have suffered as a result. But I can see the logic behind the OPs processes.

didds

didds
23-10-17, 08:10
Why would you have asked for a recomndation when you clearly thought it was a red card? YOU TAKE CONTROL NOT THE AR!


It seemed clear to me the ref did not really believe it likely to be a RC because he doubted very much the reported stamp actually happened. He was calling the (perceived biased) AR out on the allegation giving the AR enough rope to hang himself and being very clear what the ramifications of the AR's call were.

didds

Jarrod Burton
23-10-17, 09:10
It was perhaps a bad call at the end of a bad day.

Reporting of YC/RC down here is made by the official that made the report, if it is an AR, then they submit a report and the referee also makes a report.

The AR had given me several dodgy decisions on touch and offside at LO - no comms but when I got the chance to chat at a stoppage he reminded me several times of it. My ref coach who was present told me at half time to ignore the offside claims, as they hadn't happened.

I don't think the red would have affected the result, after all, G11 was going to the bin regardless for team penalties. I did give the AR enough rope to hang himself and he hasn't refereed more than one or two games since. I certainly learnt a huge amount from the game including watching for flash points and making sure I position in such a way to see more of the breakdown. At the one in question, I was too close to the action and got too engrossed in the game.

OB..
23-10-17, 11:10
Our regulations say that the club receiving a Red Card must report it to the County Disciplinary Secretary within 48 hours. That means the officials have no option but to submit a report themselves as well.

crossref
23-10-17, 11:10
over here if the referee gives a RC for an incident he didn't see, but which was seen and reported by the AR, I would expect that both the Ref and the AR would have to write a report.

The ref's report being somewhat of a formality - "I didn't see it" - but required nonetheless.

Pegleg
23-10-17, 17:10
over here if the referee gives a RC for an incident he didn't see, but which was seen and reported by the AR, I would expect that both the Ref and the AR would have to write a report.

The ref's report being somewhat of a formality - "I didn't see it" - but required nonetheless.

Same here. The ref would say what the AR reported to him. If the referee did not see it and the AR's report was clearly indicating a red then the referee says it was red on the basis of the AR report. The referee would be vindicated.

Incidentally any assessor would also have to give a report if he was at the game in an official capacity.

The basic policy is the referee leads the discussion. Usually telling the AR what, if anything, the referee saw. He then invites the AR to add anything that he saw in addition to what the referee saw. He may ask the other AR if he also saw anything. On the basis of the report(s) the referee says he is minded to give a particular sanction. OR he may ask for a recomendation if it is not a clear red or yellow. However, that should be rare.

Seek guidance from your society on the completion of the reports and make sure that the ref and the AR do not contradict each other.

That the referee does not think the player would do it is no reason to overule or downgrade any sanction.

Pegleg
23-10-17, 17:10
It seemed clear to me the ref did not really believe it likely to be a RC because he doubted very much the reported stamp actually happened. He was calling the (perceived biased) AR out on the allegation giving the AR enough rope to hang himself and being very clear what the ramifications of the AR's call were.

didds

That's why you tell the AR that "on the basis of HIS report you are going to issue a Red Card. You make it clear that you saw nothing and the report makes it clear it was a red card offence.

You also then make a report to the society / union if oyu feel he failed in his duties. The Referee coach / assessor should also be made aware of your feelings.

Pegleg
23-10-17, 17:10
Our regulations say that the club receiving a Red Card must report it to the County Disciplinary Secretary within 48 hours. That means the officials have no option but to submit a report themselves as well.

Ours don't but the grapevine gets the information back to the Society and referees are dealt with if the officials fail to report cards.

didds
23-10-17, 17:10
That the referee does not think the player would do it is no reason to overule or downgrade any sanction.


which I think was the point being made - whilst ensuring the AR's call was the reason.

didds

OB..
23-10-17, 17:10
Incidentally any assessor would also have to give a report if he was at the game in an official capacity.
Not in England. I was at a game a couple of seasons back where the referee abandoned it after a full blown brawl. I offered to give my view if wanted, but heard nothing more. (I fully agreed with the report and disciplinary action, so no bother)

Pegleg
23-10-17, 18:10
Not in England. I was at a game a couple of seasons back where the referee abandoned it after a full blown brawl. I offered to give my view if wanted, but heard nothing more. (I fully agreed with the report and disciplinary action, so no bother)

Just goes to support the care needed when giving advise across unions.

Pegleg
23-10-17, 18:10
which I think was the point being made - whilst ensuring the AR's call was the reason.

didds

That's why you stick to the facts, as presented, and Say "on the basis of your report I am going to issue a Red / yellow card. You keep your thoughts to yourself.

The OP suggests that the Green captain was given to understand the ref was not happy with the ARs call. and they laugh at him now. That is not acceptable.

Keep it simple. Don't ask for recomendations unless the AR report is unclear. If it is clear repeat it and say why YOUR decision is. Remember it is the referee's cal even when action on a report. from an AR" Then make it clear how the decision was arrived at eg "I did not see the incident so based on the ARs report this is what I'm doing...".

Jarrod Burton
24-10-17, 02:10
over here if the referee gives a RC for an incident he didn't see, but which was seen and reported by the AR, I would expect that both the Ref and the AR would have to write a report.

The ref's report being somewhat of a formality - "I didn't see it" - but required nonetheless.

Same here, our GF (I was AR1) had three red cards all on AR recommendations and we had to write the reports for it with the Ref writing "unsighted, sanction based on AR recommendation". Mine was for a headbutt, while the other guy had a late charge on the kicker and another guy kicking a player in the head. Spiteful game. Club that hadn't lost a game all year got knocked over by a team that played with 13 for 65 minutes.

Christy
24-10-17, 12:10
Same here, our GF (I was AR1) had three red cards all on AR recommendations and we had to write the reports for it with the Ref writing "unsighted, sanction based on AR recommendation". Mine was for a headbutt, while the other guy had a late charge on the kicker and another guy kicking a player in the head. Spiteful game. Club that hadn't lost a game all year got knocked over by a team that played with 13 for 65 minutes.

sounds like car crash stuff .
i hope the guy who kicked other in head got a life time ban .
and head butter also got lengthy ban .

Pegleg
25-10-17, 08:10
For Refs with ARs this might be of use. FRom the guidlines we were given.

When an AR has flagged foul play the procedure to follow is:


Keep Calm!
Ensure sides are separated 2nd AR can marshal that while you talk to the reporting AR.
The referee Leads to discussion at all times.
Tell the AR what you have seen.
Ask the AR to add anything that he has seen but that you missed.
Tell the AR what your call is going to be. Based on the evidence as presented.

Eg.
“OK we’ve both seen the same thing. On the basis of what I saw I am thinking Penalty only / Yellow / Red. Do you agree?”
Or
“On the basis of your report, I am thinking Penalty only / Yellow / Red. Have I got that right?”
The AR has a chance to indicate whether you have missed something important.
Of course, you may wish to speak to both ARs in the process.
Finally tell the captain / players exactly what was seen and what the call is. Use phrases such as “Based on the AR’s report, this is what happened, and this is the outcome”.
Or
(if it is a call based on evidence you saw) “Red 5, I saw …. You leave me no choice! … etc)

You may then wish to ask captains to “speak to their players about discipline etc if you think it appropriate.
Perhaps it is easier as we don’t ever have “home ARs” so integrity is never really in question.

As the AR.

Stick to the facts when asked. If the referee's evidence show he's seen the same as you just confirm: "yep that what I saw" Do not offer a recomendation. Only give one IF the referee asks for you to do so.

THis came for a very senior guy in the "office". One who did not follow the advice on the field! After a pice of foul play seen by the entire stadium (I'm sure) his comment to the, then slightly more junior, referee as the ref was walking towards the touchline were "Fred. Blue 7 headbutted Black 9, As clear a red as you'll see." It was picked up clearly on the TV audio. Still it didn't harm either career.

OB..
25-10-17, 09:10
Another piece of advice is for the AR to hold his flag in both hands to stop him gesticulating eg pointing to players, simulating a punch etc.

Pegleg
25-10-17, 10:10
And dont use it to wave to players to get back 10 etc.

Jarrod Burton
25-10-17, 12:10
And dont use it to wave to players to get back 10 etc.

When it comes to marking the 5/10m line I tend to hold an arm out (horizontal) point across the field on the line and when the last player is onside I'll drop it, or a quick gesture to a player who looks at me if they need to take another step or so. How do others do this?

Pegleg
25-10-17, 16:10
That's standard. I have seen guys do it with the flag and when you mention it you usually get a "DOH" response!

Rushforth
25-10-17, 21:10
When it comes to marking the 5/10m line I tend to hold an arm out (horizontal) point across the field on the line and when the last player is onside I'll drop it, or a quick gesture to a player who looks at me if they need to take another step or so. How do others do this?

Holding the arm straight out without a flag is the standard way. Ideally at early scrums, the defending (in the sense of not putting the ball in) are helped by both ARs on position, so that they all stand in line and can peek past the other backs to either side to see the guys running touch by leaning slightly forwards to see both ARs.

But otherwise, wave to move them back, and then once they realise that you are helping them get the right distance, a thumbs up. Just talking to the nearest winger can help, too.

shnipvanwinkel
22-01-18, 14:01
Sorry to necromance a thread here, but it is possible that the irfu calls them touch judges to allow the referee to apply 6.21