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CrouchTPEngage
01-11-17, 21:11
Amongst the many other well publicised decisions in this game, there was one which caused a bit of a debate at the time when I was watching it.
Yes, its that Clermont Northampton game again !

Can anyone explain to me why the scrum following the maul had the catcher's team with the put-in ?
Note - It is caught from a restart kick .
What am I missing, please ?

Here's the timed link in the video
https://youtu.be/3BePabIXt4c?t=1h34m37s.

( or 66 mins 40 secs on the game clock )

Cheers.

Jolly Roger
01-11-17, 22:11
Hi CTPE

I was confused myself but on looking up the definition of kick off....

Law 17.6.h states:
h) Scrum after a maul when catcher is held. If a player catches the ball direct from an opponent’s kick, except from a kick-off or a drop-out, and the player is immediately held by an opponent, a maul may form. Then if the maul remains stationary, stops moving forward for longer than 5 seconds, or if the ball becomes unplayable, and a scrum is ordered, the team of the ball catcher throws in the ball.

Law 13 Kick Off and Restarts states in the Definitions:
DEFINITIONS
The kick-off occurs at the start of each half of the match and at the beginning of each period of extra time. Restart kicks occur after a score or a touch down.

Therefore the ball was caught direct from a restart kick which is not a KO of DO therefore scum to catcher.

CrouchTPEngage
01-11-17, 22:11
Hi CTPE

I was confused myself but on looking up the definition of kick off....

Law 17.6.h states:
h) Scrum after a maul when catcher is held. If a player catches the ball direct from an opponent’s kick, except from a kick-off or a drop-out, and the player is immediately held by an opponent, a maul may form. Then if the maul remains stationary, stops moving forward for longer than 5 seconds, or if the ball becomes unplayable, and a scrum is ordered, the team of the ball catcher throws in the ball.

Law 13 Kick Off and Restarts states in the Definitions:
DEFINITIONS
The kick-off occurs at the start of each half of the match and at the beginning of each period of extra time. Restart kicks occur after a score or a touch down.

Therefore the ball was caught direct from a restart kick which is not a KO of DO therefore scum to catcher.

Ah. that makes sense now. Thanks Mr Roger :-)
So there is only ( normally) only 2 kick-off kicks during a normal 80 minute game. That will be in our region's Xmas law quiz now. I;m sure :-)

crossref
01-11-17, 23:11
I don't think the Laws meant to make a distinction between mauls from restarts and kickoffs

OB..
01-11-17, 23:11
I don't think the Laws meant to make a distinction between mauls from restarts and kickoffs
Law 13 is inconsistent. Having carefully defined the difference between kick-offs and restart kicks, it then more or less forgets about the latter.

The only significant difference between the two is that for a restart the referee does not have to blow his whistle. Unfortunately the omission of restarts in later paragraphs leaves aspects of the law unspecified.

thepercy
02-11-17, 00:11
When did kick offs become a drop kick rather than on a tee? A hold out from this, or other historical oddities with kick offs/restarts?

Dickie E
02-11-17, 01:11
I also note that, as the kick off / restart team is becoming more successful at retaining their own kick (especially in 7s), the ref has to be careful to award any resulting scrum to the correct team.

Christy
02-11-17, 08:11
Kick off , re starts , 22 drop out .
For this law , they are all included .
It was a good call from ref .
1st yellow player only touches ball carrier , its the 2nd yellow player who gets to hold ball carrier .

There for its not immediately held up . Which is key here .
It would need to be as munster were very good at , is an immediate choke tackle .

didds
02-11-17, 09:11
so we are in the territory of nuances around "immediately" ? Oh dear ...

didds

didds
02-11-17, 09:11
My 2p.

- the 12 year old did his usual trick of forgetting aspects of the laws, and restarts should be included along with KO and DOs for the purposes of the maul turnover laws. Its nonsensical otherwise.
- wrt immediately that action in the game linked to in #1 is "immediately". If we start to split hairs over glancing, minimal impacts meaning its no longer "immediate" then we open a can of worms of refs now having to differentiate over what is previous incidental contacts. And eventually a teams tactic will be to kick off, ands get two chasers close to the ball with a view to if caught by an oppo the 1st chaser there just touches him for the 2nd player to then wrap up and now "immediately" has gone and they can win the resulting turnover scrum.

didds

Blackberry
02-11-17, 10:11
So.. what we are saying is the catcher's team gets the scrum from any immediate unsuccessful maul, except if the kick came from
1) a 22 drop out
2) a kick off / restart following a score

Is that right?

Lee Lifeson-Peart
02-11-17, 10:11
So.. what we are saying is the catcher's team gets the scrum from any immediate unsuccessful maul, except if the kick came from
1) a 22 drop out
2) a kick off / restart following a score

Is that right?

That's how I understood/stand it. I don't think differently having read the KO, DO, RS argument/discussion.

There's still plenty who don't understand the Maul turnover criteria without the added complications of kicks. I was in Lancashire a couple of weeks ago and I'm sure at least one team thought I'd just brought the law over the Pennines with me that day.

OB..
02-11-17, 11:11
Kick off , re starts , 22 drop out .
For this law , they are all included .17.6 (h)Scrum after a maul when catcher is held. If a player catches the ball direct from an opponent’s kick, except from a kick-off or a drop-out,[...] That does not cover restart kicks.

ChrisR
02-11-17, 12:11
. . . . and what is a restart kick? Not part of Definitions. Is a PK or FK a restart kick? Not to me. I think we would probably agree that a "restart kick" is the kick that starts play after a score. Its closest relative is a kick-off and its cousin is the 22. In each case the kick must land in the playing area and is most likely to be caught by the opponent.

The maul law implication is to prevent the receiving team from simply catching the ball and hanging on to get the scrum. The writers of the laws want the receiving team to put it in play.

So . . . simply consider the "restart" in the same light as "kick-off" and "22 drop out" and acknowledge that the 12 years old is up to his usual standard.

didds
02-11-17, 13:11
17.6 (h)Scrum after a maul when catcher is held. If a player catches the ball direct from an opponent’s kick, except from a kick-off or a drop-out,[...] That does not cover restart kicks.


I agree it doesn't - but I would suggest that is an oversight, not a deliberate exclusion.

what would be the point of excluding a kick off at the start of a half, but not a restart after a score when they are to all intents and purposes exactly the same thing?

didds

crossref
02-11-17, 13:11
imagine if it happened twice, after a kickoff, and then again two minutes later after a restart - surely no one would make opposite calls?

Lee Lifeson-Peart
02-11-17, 13:11
imagine if it happened twice, after a kickoff, and then again two minutes later after a restart - surely no one would make opposite calls?

I wouldn't.

Pinky
02-11-17, 14:11
So is the conclusion of all this that the ref got it wrong in the OP video?

didds
02-11-17, 14:11
So is the conclusion of all this that the ref got it wrong in the OP video?

For me - yes.

Others seem to take the view that as blue impacted a yellow before being wrapped up this means it was not "immediate" - I don't buy that. They would obviously disagree with me.

didds

Taff
02-11-17, 14:11
I agree it doesn't - but I would suggest that is an oversight, not a deliberate exclusion. What would be the point of excluding a kick off at the start of a half, but not a restart after a score when they are to all intents and purposes exactly the same thing?

. . . . and what is a restart kick? Not part of Definitions. ... So . . . simply consider the "restart" in the same light as "kick-off" and "22 drop out" and acknowledge that the 12 years old is up to his usual standard.

imagine if it happened twice, after a kickoff, and then again two minutes later after a restart - surely no one would make opposite calls?
Exactly. I have always considered KO, restarts and DO's the same and didn't realise the word "restart" didn't appear in the wording for the Maul TO's. To treat KOs and restarts at the centre differently simply makes no sense.

Probably the easiest way to think of it is - if the kicking side can drop the KO, restart or DO (ie where they have to kick the ball - other kicks are discretionary) so accurately that an immediate Maul forms and there is an unsuccessful end to that Maul, then the kicking team get rewarded with the throw in at the next scrum.

I reckon that is what the Yellow supporters were really booing - not Hartley going off.

CrouchTPEngage
02-11-17, 16:11
So is the conclusion of all this that the ref got it wrong in the OP video?

I think , on reflection, the ref got it right and gets credibility for applying the distinction between "kick-Off"and "Restart" kicks as "THE LAW IS WRITTEN"

I think we are at the top of a slippery slope if we decide "That's not what the law makers meant here!".
There are enough "interpretation differences" in many laws as it is, I'm in favour of ref consistency to help players.
I sometimes get the players saying to me "Sir ? They get the scrum ? That's not what last week's ref did !"
And that's on some basic facts of law which, or so I thought, were beyond the reach of "interpretation"

didds
02-11-17, 17:11
well then - here is something that would be dead simple for WR to clear up if there was a way to get a question to them..

... so laws@rfu.com will have to suffice


didds

OB..
02-11-17, 17:11
. . . . and what is a restart kick? Not part of Definitions.
Law 13 Definitions Restart kicks occur after a score or a touch down.

OB..
02-11-17, 18:11
I agree it doesn't - but I would suggest that is an oversight, not a deliberate exclusion.

what would be the point of excluding a kick off at the start of a half, but not a restart after a score when they are to all intents and purposes exactly the same thing?

didds
As I have said before, the difference between a kick-off and a restart is that the referee does not blow his whistle for the latter. "In your own time, gentlemen." This raises discussion about whether or not the kicking team has to wait for their opponents to be in position, and whether or not catching from a restart is the same as from a kick-off.

We are left to guess what they wanted to be the case, which is unacceptable.

Taff
02-11-17, 18:11
As I have said before, the difference between a kick-off and a restart is that the referee does not blow his whistle for the latter. "In your own time, gentlemen." This raises discussion about whether or not the kicking team has to wait for their opponents to be in position, and whether or not catching from a restart is the same as from a kick-off.We are left to guess what they wanted to be the case, which is unacceptable.
The kicking team doesn't have to wait for the opposition to be in position for a 22m DO, but the exception applies to them. I still don't understand why a restart at the centre should be treated any differently to a KO or 22m DO.

In fact, if I can remember this would be a good question to bring up during the "Law Query" part of the next monthly meeting. :chin:

I'm happy to bet a pint that 99% of Refs would treat a restart at the centre exactly the same as a Kick Off.

Dickie E
03-11-17, 04:11
I think , on reflection, the ref got it right and gets credibility for applying the distinction between "kick-Off"and "Restart" kicks as "THE LAW IS WRITTEN"



well, here then is the problem that you create for yourself. Law 13.7 specifically uses the term Kick-off and is completely silent on the term Restart. If a Restart doesn't go 10 metres, what are you going to do? Play on? I guess you have to because there is no sanction for a Restart not going 10.

13.7 Kick-off of under 10 metres and not played by an opponent
If the ball does not reach the opponent’s 10-metre line the opposing team has two choices:
•To have the ball kicked off again, or
•To have a scrum at the centre of the half-way line and they throw in the ball.

Sometimes, you have to use common sense.

Dickie E
03-11-17, 04:11
So.. what we are saying is the catcher's team gets the scrum from any immediate unsuccessful maul, except if the kick came from
1) a 22 drop out
2) a kick off / restart following a score

Is that right?

and turnover too if the catching team was also the kicking team, from any type of kick.

Dan_A
03-11-17, 11:11
When trying to explain the "maul turnover from a kick" law to the kids I coach I basically explain that it is to discourage kicking and use a shorthand:-

"If the kicking team chose to kick it, they can't benefit from the maul turnover. If they have to kick it, they can."

Is that now wrong?

didds
03-11-17, 11:11
Notwithstanding the ambiguousity of the situation as described above, that's a great "rule".

didds

Dickie E
03-11-17, 21:11
"If the kicking team chose to kick it, they can't benefit from the maul turnover. If they have to kick it, they can."



"Sir, Sir, what if its a penalty or free kick?"

Pegleg
03-11-17, 21:11
"Sir, Sir, what if its a penalty or free kick?"

They can tap and go or take a scrum.

didds
04-11-17, 00:11
"Sir, Sir, what if its a penalty or free kick?"

they don't have to kick it so it can get caught by the oppo? and they can take a scrum - so a kick is optional not mandatory?

didds

Not Kurt Weaver
04-11-17, 00:11
well, here then is the problem that you create for yourself. Law 13.7 specifically uses the term Kick-off and is completely silent on the term Restart. If a Restart doesn't go 10 metres, what are you going to do? Play on? I guess you have to because there is no sanction for a Restart not going 10.

13.7 Kick-off of under 10 metres and not played by an opponent
If the ball does not reach the opponent’s 10-metre line the opposing team has two choices:
•To have the ball kicked off again, or
•To have a scrum at the centre of the half-way line and they throw in the ball.

Sometimes, you have to use common sense.

Play on isn't so far fetched. Why not treat a restart similar to a 22 drop? non kicking doesn't have to be ten, it is not illogical to treat a restart differently than a kick-off

The kick off is decided by a coin flip, a restart is given post score to nonscoring team (15), they are created differently and are different moments in play. That sense is not so uncommon