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View Full Version : Referee positioning - Try no Try?



Blindpugh
05-11-17, 20:11
Watched a local L6 London South 1 Game yesterday and thought of my SADO Jim Firth whose died recently, a great man. Jim instilled in us that when there is a 5 metre line out (and no independent AR's) to position ourselves in 5 metre box so that play comes towards us.

Situation - Blues attacking and have a 5 metre line out. Green steal line out and begin to maul to provide SH with ball to clear. (Referee position is on attacking side). Suddenly Blues No.6 dives over line and grounds ball.

Referee calls captains together and advises that he didn't see ball grounded (because he was still stood on attacking side of line out) and awards a 5 metre scrum put in to Green. Spoke to club TJ afterwards what would you have given:chin:

Please view this as a leaning point for referees with club Tj's. Thoughts, comments observations!?

Christy
05-11-17, 21:11
Hi blindpugh.
In these situations i agree with jim .
Position your self in 5 meter slot , no matter who throws in .
Seems the ref did 2 things , that didnt work to well .

1stly positioning caught him out .
2ndly , unless its a typo ,,should of been blue put in at scrum restart .

Even if ref , had stood correct side of line out & still for what ever reasons couldnt clearly see a grounding.
Game would still start with attacking scrum .

Blindpugh
05-11-17, 22:11
Hi blindpugh.

1stly positioning caught him out .
2ndly , unless its a typo ,,should of been blue put in at scrum restart .

Even if ref , had stood correct side of line out & still for what ever reasons couldnt clearly see a grounding.
Game would still start with attacking scrum .

Hi Christy - thankfully I followed Jim's advice so thankfully never encountered this situation.

Club TJ who is a Society referee said it was a clear try but referee was in the wrong position to see it.

We agreed if we hadn't seen grounding we would have given scrum to attacking side Blue. Well spotted!

Dickie E
05-11-17, 22:11
referee was in the wrong position to see it.



I wonder, then, what the referee did and did not see. Did he see Blue #6 dive over the line but just missed the grounding or did he not see Blue #6 at all?

And I can't picture any valid reason why Green would get the scrum feed. If the ref only saw Green win the lineout and maul formed, it should be turnover scrum to Blue. And if even that was a blur, Blue appears to be going forward, so scrum to Blue, or if held up over line, scrum to Blue.

chbg
05-11-17, 23:11
In a similar situation I try to use all available information, rather than just relying on my own one set of eyes: what was the reaction of both teams? Did I see a situation in which only one person could have grounded the ball, or is there really doubt as to what happened? Whose TJ was it? If he/she had been scrupously accurate throughout the match, what did they see? I know what 6.A.7 allows, but we 'consult' TJs on touch decisions (where did the ball actually land? where was his foot?), so I am happy to use them as further, generally confirmatory, information if they have shown themselves to be reliable.

But if you really cannot be sure that the ball has been grounded, or by which side, then you just have to go with a scrum, attacker's ball. It can only be a defender's ball if the attacking side has knocked-on into or in the In-Goal (or is accidentally offside).

Moral of the story: (1) always know where the ball is in a maul. (2) within 5m, on or behind the GL is invariably the better position.

Pegleg
06-11-17, 08:11
To ad to all that. Let's consider what happened after the ball was won by the non throwing-in side.

Why did the referee not get back around to the ball winning teams side. If the line out had been 30 m out and Black were throwing in you'd be on black's side (OTBE). However, if white catch the ball you are likely to go around to white's side of the LO (maul) to see offside lines knock ons by White 9 etc etc.

So all in all a bit of a mess.

beckett50
06-11-17, 11:11
Sounds like he had not paid attention to the first tenet of set play - locate the ball!

I would suggest that as soon as the line out was stolen by Green he should have worked to change his position to one that took him to Green's side of the line and stood in such a place as to observe all that was likely to unfold. By what you describe he had ample opportunity so to do.

As to the Club TJ, if it is one I know and trust I may be inclined to have a little look at them to gauge their reaction. I should point out here that I would need to have knowledge of both TJs to make this a justifiable action.

By the sounds of it the referee made a 'critical error' of judgement if he expected Green to Maul the ball out and give the #9 space to box kick and effect the exit strategy.

I can see how he may have sold the 5m scrum for Green on the basis that the Blue player lost the ball forward and took it into the In_Goal area before it was made dead. However, the question is raised as to whether Blue 6 was on-side before he played the ball.

Bit of a fluster cuck if you ask me.

Dickie E
06-11-17, 21:11
I should point out here that I would need to have knowledge of both TJs to make this a justifiable action.



Why is that?

beckett50
06-11-17, 22:11
Why is that?

Because to not so do would lead one to question the other's impartiality. At the end of the day they are not 'appointed' ARs but TJs - with all that that entails with regard to LotG.

Hope that explains it DickieE

Dickie E
06-11-17, 23:11
Because to not so do would lead one to question the other's impartiality. At the end of the day they are not 'appointed' ARs but TJs - with all that that entails with regard to LotG.

Hope that explains it DickieE

Not really.

If you have confidence in the TJ on the side that the event occurs, why does it matter about the other TJ?

OB..
06-11-17, 23:11
Interesting incident recently. Conversion attempt, both TJs signal success, referee over-rules them.

His view was that the ball had passed over the post and therefore the TJ should not have raised his flag. He was correct in law, but it confused the crowd - and the scoreboard operator!

Dickie E
07-11-17, 00:11
Interesting incident recently. Conversion attempt, both TJs signal success, referee over-rules them.

His view was that the ball had passed over the post and therefore the TJ should not have raised his flag. He was correct in law, but it confused the crowd - and the scoreboard operator!

If I'd been the TJ I'd be giving him back his flag and tell him to do it himself.

ChuckieB
07-11-17, 01:11
Interesting incident recently. Conversion attempt, both TJs signal success, referee over-rules them.

His view was that the ball had passed over the post and therefore the TJ should not have raised his flag. He was correct in law, but it confused the crowd - and the scoreboard operator! well if he considered it to have gone over the post it would likely have been difficult for one of the touch judges to be sufficiently well sighted himself to make a judgement that it had gone between. I am not surprised it was an overule if that was the referee's thought on it.

Dickie E
07-11-17, 02:11
well if he considered it to have gone over the post it would likely have been difficult for one of the touch judges to be sufficiently well sighted himself to make a judgement that it had gone between.

There's not much point TJs going behind posts if they can't make that call with accuracy. If it had missed by a metre, fair enough. But overuling an official on a line ball call ....

Maybe its an England thing

Pegleg
07-11-17, 08:11
Or more to the point that your TJs are not the same as those in the UK. Our TJs are a guy who is there. They are not trained in anyway shape or form.

Often (for the away team where only the team.the coach and "first aider" travel) the TJ is a reserve. Or it is the last guy out of the bar and down to pitch side.

Other threads have covere that yours have done the course and are,at least, quasi ARs if not ineffect ARs as opposed to a guy with a flag.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
07-11-17, 08:11
If I'd been the TJ I'd be giving him back his flag and tell him to do it himself.

msf..

3636

Pegleg
07-11-17, 08:11
Interesting incident recently. Conversion attempt, both TJs signal success, referee over-rules them.

His view was that the ball had passed over the post and therefore the TJ should not have raised his flag. He was correct in law, but it confused the crowd - and the scoreboard operator!

Overruling two TJs is a big call. Where the TJs disagree, not uncommon in the sticks, it's an easier call.

How "Clear and Obvious" is it likely to be that both TJs got it wrong?

Pegleg
07-11-17, 09:11
Not really.

If you have confidence in the TJ on the side that the event occurs, why does it matter about the other TJ?

TJs up here are simply that. They are NOT given any powers of an AR. Your system is different. You should not solicit / accept any imput from TJs. However, if, as is sometimes the case, on TJ is known to you eg a former society referee you might look at him to monitor his "body language" for example.

However, Seeking some response from one TJ and not the other, OUTSIDE THEIR REMIT whould be a rescipe for disaster.

crossref
07-11-17, 09:11
I once had two appointed Society ARs give - what seemed to me - to be the wrong call. I went with them, but I still sometimes worry about that.

Pegleg
07-11-17, 09:11
If it was not clear and obvious why would you overrule?

Dickie E
07-11-17, 10:11
However, Seeking some response from one TJ and not the other, OUTSIDE THEIR REMIT whould be a rescipe for disaster.

Yeah, I get it but how bizarre! Like breaking your left hand then refusing to use your right hand out of some form of unnatural natural justice.

Whatever floats your boat.

Dickie E
07-11-17, 10:11
Or more to the point that your TJs are not the same as those in the UK. Our TJs are a guy who is there. They are not trained in anyway shape or form.

Often (for the away team where only the team.the coach and "first aider" travel) the TJ is a reserve. Or it is the last guy out of the bar and down to pitch side.

Other threads have covere that yours have done the course and are,at least, quasi ARs if not ineffect ARs as opposed to a guy with a flag.

we have TJs too that aren't trained. Sometimes its someone's dad with the flag in one hand and a beer in the other. Or some kid who'd rather be talking to his mates on the halfway line.

BUT if we also have a qualified AR / TJ on the other side, we are allowed to work with him/her as a team of 2. We aren't forced to treat both at the same level of competence / incompetence.

ChuckieB
07-11-17, 12:11
There's not much point TJs going behind posts if they can't make that call with accuracy. If it had missed by a metre, fair enough. But overuling an official on a line ball call ....

Maybe its an England thing

It's a triangulation thing. With TJ's on their own post I don't see necessarily that they should be any better placed to see what has gone on with the ball in relation to the post that they are not monitoring. Perhaps the ref had a better perspective from a distance away and can see the ball as being over the height of the upright and cannot rely on one or either of the TJ's under the circumstances.

A hard call to make at the best of times when it is not obviously between but more over. Unless I was sure I wouldn't actively seek to overrule.

didds
07-11-17, 13:11
I heard something ages ago though Im not really sure how valid it is... that each TJ merely flags he/her own post. So if I am on the left post then as long as the ball passes to my right over bar height I put my flag up.

meanwhile the right post TJ flags if the ball passes to his/her left over bar height.

two flags = goal.

Now - that's clearly not what really happens anyway cos otherwise you'd see a flag up for any kick high enough that actually missed by miles, which we don;t see.

BUT... it would be a reason for both flags up if one TJ had a ball pass over his/her post and judged it "in", as the other TJ would have flagged oon his/her post only

didds

Pegleg
07-11-17, 18:11
Yeah, I get it but how bizarre! Like breaking your left hand then refusing to use your right hand out of some form of unnatural natural justice.

Whatever floats your boat.

The similarity is none existant. Rules govern one and not the other. Fairness and being seemn to be fair is also important. I'm guessing you are ignoring the "outside their remit bit" If the are TJs here they are only allowed to signal touch and successful kicks. In another thread we came to understand that you have a different system. I accept your system is different to ours. You need to need also to accept it (you don't need to agree with it).

Pegleg
07-11-17, 18:11
I heard something ages ago though Im not really sure how valid it is... that each TJ merely flags he/her own post. So if I am on the left post then as long as the ball passes to my right over bar height I put my flag up.

meanwhile the right post TJ flags if the ball passes to his/her left over bar height.

two flags = goal.

Now - that's clearly not what really happens anyway cos otherwise you'd see a flag up for any kick high enough that actually missed by miles, which we don;t see.

BUT... it would be a reason for both flags up if one TJ had a ball pass over his/her post and judged it "in", as the other TJ would have flagged oon his/her post only

didds

That's from the days of TJs and not ARS and is really still the case out in the sticks. Where you have ARs you triangulate as Chuckie suggests You say that the kick is good from your angle and if the other agrees, up go the flags. Never had a case where as a pair of ARs we've had a disagreement. But we all know the clubs where the ball could go through dead centre and the AR will shake his flag from side to side with gusto.

crossref
07-11-17, 18:11
I am not entirely sure that the consultation process you describe .. which is exactly what we are taught ..is actually a good thing.

In the incident that happened to me I suspect that one AR wasn't paying attention (yes this could happen even with a society AR) and then went with the decision made by the other.

It might actually be a better protocol to signal independently ..
If the ref has one up, one down it's easy to take responsibility for the decision

If you had one signal, one 'not sure' again it would be very helpful for the ref to know this and make the call . It's going to happen on a close one.

Of course this brings us right back to the old chestnut of how to distinguish the flag signals for 'miss' and 'don't know' or 'wasnt watching' which, officially, are identical. I do like it when TJs use the unofficial swipe to definitively indicate a miss

Dixie
07-11-17, 21:11
It's a triangulation thing. ... Unless I was sure I wouldn't actively seek to overrule. Sounds wise. It's a rare kick that flies dead straight - most fade with the kicker's round-the-corner action. That being so, the referee is perhaps worst placed of the three to know at what moment exactly the ball was "above" the posts - had it, for example, been five yards past the goal line when it seemed to go over? In those circumstances I'd have had a conversation with the chap on the post - and only if he said he'd thought "straight above" was a goal would I have over-ruled.

Dickie E
07-11-17, 22:11
The similarity is none existant. Rules govern one and not the other. Fairness and being seemn to be fair is also important. I'm guessing you are ignoring the "outside their remit bit" If the are TJs here they are only allowed to signal touch and successful kicks. In another thread we came to understand that you have a different system. I accept your system is different to ours. You need to need also to accept it (you don't need to agree with it).

OK & I understand. It was this bit that I struggled to get my head around (but not wanting to make it a federal issue):


As to the Club TJ, if it is one I know and trust I may be inclined to have a little look at them to gauge their reaction. I should point out here that I would need to have knowledge of both TJs to make this a justifiable action.

Pinky
09-11-17, 18:11
I try to remember to ask the TJs to agree that kick has gone over before flagging and if they disagree or are unsure to let me know and I'll decide.

As for informal "advice" from a TJ, depends who it is and what it is about. Long history has been that if a TJ ro AR thinks it's a try they run round behind the posts, or stay out wide if they think there is a problem. Also relevant who is the TJ. I had a spell where my son (a qualified and better ref than me) would run touch. Andy advice from him was welcome, but from the coach who keeps shout "off his feet ref" not so welcome.