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View Full Version : [Law] Knock on? Eng v Aus



didds
19-11-17, 13:11
Can somebody talk me through why this was a knock-on?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg24sQsr9OM&feature=youtu.be&t=1617

May kocks the ball in the attempt to catch it, and is clipped by an opponent in so doing (no issue with that). He lands on his back and catches the ball - the ball has not [1] touched a teammate of opponent or the ground. O'K calls a knock on.

??

[1] All I can think is that

1) its this thing about being on your feet to be in the game , OR
2) the ball grazed another player on the way down that i haven;t seen

any ideas?

didds

menace
19-11-17, 14:11
Simple. The ref got it wrong. Im sure he just anticipated he wasnt going to catch it and probably said 'f@ck' as soon as the sound came out of his whistle. He then proceeded to sell it.

VM75
19-11-17, 18:11
Can somebody talk me through why this was a knock-on?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg24sQsr9OM&feature=youtu.be&t=1617

May knocks the ball in the attempt to catch it, and is clipped by an opponent in so doing (no issue with that). He lands on his back and catches the ball - the ball has not [1] touched a teammate of opponent or the ground. O'K calls a knock on.

??

[1] All I can think is that

1) its this thing about being on your feet to be in the game , OR
2) the ball grazed another player on the way down that i haven;t seen

any ideas?

didds

no - it was an error.

crossref
19-11-17, 19:11
Simple. The ref got it wrong. Im sure he just anticipated he wasnt going to catch it and probably said 'f@ck' as soon as the sound came out of his whistle. He then proceeded to sell it.

yes, I agree.
clouding his mind -- he's also probably thinking that he could have / should have given a PK to England for the contact in the air that knocked Jonny May over.

Very good example of the old saying 'think quick, blow slow' if he'd given himself a half second extra before blowing he'd have made a better decision... or even not blown at all and played on

ChuckieB
19-11-17, 20:11
First instinct was a pk. Would have been more inclined to not blow at all if I am perfectly honest.

Dickie E
19-11-17, 21:11
1) its this thing about being on your feet to be in the game , OR


Interesting

Balones
19-11-17, 21:11
Forward pass to yourself?
Knock on for my money because the distance between the first contact and the second was beyond an arms length?
I tend to support the idea that he was on the floor when he caught it, so out of the game. The same as a gather if it had hit the floor.

crossref
19-11-17, 21:11
Forward pass to yourself?
Knock on for my money because the distance between the first contact and the second was beyond an arms length?
I tend to support the idea that he was on the floor when he caught it, so out of the game. The same as a gather if it had hit the floor.

If that was the case it would be a PK to Australia
Which is not what he gave.

ChuckieB
19-11-17, 21:11
That it had not touched the ground or another player before he gathered it, does not make it a knock on by my interpretation of the laws. Having gone to ground, I am of the view he is entitled to regain his feet. Had he had to gather it, then by all means he can be penalised.

It seems fair that if a tackled player has some options then players who go to ground do so too.

Pinky
20-11-17, 00:11
It seems fair that if a tackled player has some options then players who go to ground do so too.

They do so - they are in Law 14. Not the same as those for a tackled player, though.

Dickie E
20-11-17, 00:11
If that was the case it would be a PK to Australia
Which is not what he gave.

maybe he applied the "if you're on the ground, you're part of the ground" (twisted) logic, hence the knock on.

Dickie E
20-11-17, 00:11
It seems fair that if a tackled player has some options then players who go to ground do so too.

Yes, but only if they go to ground for the purpose of gathering the ball (law 14).

If they go to ground and the ball comes to them by happenstance, consensus is that that is penalisable if they then play the ball.

ChuckieB
20-11-17, 01:11
Yes, but only if they go to ground for the purpose of gathering the ball (law 14).

If they go to ground and the ball comes to them by happenstance, consensus is that that is penalisable if they then play the ball.

law 14 covers players in possession.

If a player juggling the ball is deemed to be in possession (he may be tackled), and he just happens to then take control at the point he hits the ground, you would be suggesting he has no rights?

ChuckieB
20-11-17, 01:11
Yes, but only if they go to ground for the purpose of gathering the ball (law 14).

If they go to ground and the ball comes to them by happenstance, consensus is that that is penalisable if they then play the ball.

law 14 also covers players in possession.

It also occurs when a player is on the ground in possession of the ball and has not been tackled.

If a player juggling the ball is deemed to be in possession (he may be tackled), and he just happens to then take control at the point he hits the ground, you would be suggesting he has no rights?

Dickie E
20-11-17, 01:11
law 14 also covers players in possession.

It also occurs when a player is on the ground in possession of the ball and has not been tackled.

If a player juggling the ball is deemed to be in possession (he may be tackled), and he just happens to then take control at the point he hits the ground, you would be suggesting he has no rights?

its all in the wording, innit?

If a player knocks the ball forward, falls over, and (as luck would have) the ball lands in his lap ... is that juggling?

OB..
20-11-17, 12:11
its all in the wording, innit?Not my approach!

A borderline situation, but I don't think it is unfair to allow it.

Dickie E
20-11-17, 21:11
A borderline situation, but I don't think it is unfair to allow it.

Fair enough. I have always found the mantra "rugby is a game for players on their feet" to be close to useless because there are so many exceptions. This is another, previously unthought of.

crossref
20-11-17, 21:11
This incident is an excellent example of someone who found himself on the ground unintentionally (he was knocked over) , whereupon the ball fell into his possession and I am sure we all agree he was entitled to catch it.

(Having caught it he would have to either get up with it, pass it or release it).

I don't want to get dragged back into this discussion which we have done to death, but this is a good example on my side of the argument

ChuckieB
20-11-17, 22:11
This incident is an excellent example of someone who found himself on the ground unintentionally (he was knocked over) , whereupon the ball fell into his possession and I am sure we all agree he was entitled to catch it.

(Having caught it he would have to either get up with it, pass it or release it).

I don't want to get dragged back into this discussion which we have done to death, but this is a good example on my side of the argument

my own assertion was purely:

Definitions (http://laws.worldrugby.org/index.php?highlight=Possession&law=0)
A player who is attempting to bring the ball under control is deemed to be in possession of the ball;

and having gone to ground and successfully gathered the ball before it touched the ground, he was entitled to get up, lay it off, etc

ctrainor
20-11-17, 22:11
Ignoring the fact that he was played in the air, you can't tap the ball forward over an opponent and regathering it can you? Not sure of the law but that's a knock on for me.

crossref
20-11-17, 22:11
Ignoring the fact that he was played in the air, you can't tap the ball forward over an opponent and regathering it can you? Not sure of the law but that's a knock on for me.

You couldn't do that deliberately but if you are juggling I think that's ok (NB you *can be tackled* while doing it)

didds
20-11-17, 23:11
I'm with CR here. But if O'Keefe thought he'd tapped it over an oppo head etc then that's a PK, not a scrummage.

O'Keefe clearly signals knock-on. And he also blows AFTER May has collected the ball, so its not a "blew too soon" job.

didds

ChrisR
21-11-17, 12:11
This may be one of those occasions where the peep comes out just before the brain engages. Far better to admit the error and award a scrum to team in possession (or other equitable solution) than to make up a cockeyed reason such as "he's part of the ground" or "off your feet, out of the game".

ChuckieB
21-11-17, 13:11
Had an age grade player who loved to do a show and go that went from the hands and he regathered it.

As cute as it was I had to explain to him that it was not permitted as it was a deliberate throw forward to himself even it did clear his hands and move just a few inches. I am sure he wasn't the first, nor will he be the last, to think it was ok.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
21-11-17, 13:11
It Jonny May had run sideways like he normally does it wouldn't have been a knock on.

didds
21-11-17, 14:11
Had an age grade player who loved to do a show and go that went from the hands and he regathered it.

As cute as it was I had to explain to him that it was not permitted as it was a deliberate throw forward to himself even it did clear his hands and move just a few inches. I am sure he wasn't the first, nor will he be the last, to think it was ok.

were his hands pointing backwards or forwards when he let go of the ball though...

;-) <--------

didds

ctrainor
21-11-17, 18:11
[QUOTE=didds;338507]were his hands pointing backwards or forwards when he let go of the ball though...

;-) <--------

didds[/QUOT
They could be neither, he could throw the ball straight up so it is not a throw forward. Used to do it myself, it does create confusion especially if you are doing a runaround move. Best I ever saw was a Barrow RL player called Derick Hadley in the 80s and 90s, used to bamboozle defences with his slight of hand.

crossref
21-11-17, 20:11
Here's BOD famously throwing the ball forward and regathering
(peep , nice try but you can't throw it forward )

https://youtu.be/KzvnexjWJYg

didds
21-11-17, 23:11
Here's BOD famously throwing the ball forward and regathering
(peep , nice try but you can't throw it forward )

https://youtu.be/KzvnexjWJYg


But BOD wasn't pinged for a forward throw/pass...

didds