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belhysys
03-12-17, 17:12
3 questions from my last game.
1 - a player was getting ready to get a ball. the ball had a strange bounce and hit his legs and went forward
a- there is no knock on, as the law states arm / hands. (correct ? )
b - played is just touched, so if a player offside pick up the ball, PK (correct?)


2 - knock on: if a player is joggling when trying to catch the ball. If he catches the ball there is no knock on even if the first joggle is forward.
However, if he doesnt catch the ball, and the last joggle is clearly backward. Is it a knock or not ?
3 - Pick and go. Often you see player joining the ball carrier and "sealing" the ball. Where do you draw the line between protecting the ball and sealing the ball. Once again TV doesnt help with the number of off-feet players you see...
thanks for your help https://www.facebook.com/images/emoji.php/v9/f4c/1/16/1f642.png:)

ChrisR
03-12-17, 17:12
1. a & b correct & correct

2. My opinion is that if the last touch on the ball propels it backwards then it is not a KO. Others may disagree as the ball was not caught.

3. If the support player goes to ground over the ball to prevent the ops access then that is sealing.

Taff
03-12-17, 18:12
1. Bouncing forward off a leg is NOT a knock-on.

2. If an offside player made a deliberate attempt to play the ball - then I would give a PK. If the ball was knocked-on into him and he had no chance of getting out of the way, I would say accidental offside and give a scrum.

3. Juggling the ball is not a knock-on but just be careful it isn't a deliberate "throw forward" disguised as juggling. That's a PK offence. I guess you will be able to tell the difference when you see it.

4. If the ball carrier (BC) is tackled and a team mate is standing over him with his hand/s on the ball, I would say that was OK. If he has his hands beyond the ball and has no hope in hell of supporting his own weight, I would say that was sealing off.

Christy
03-12-17, 20:12
I agree with taff on answers 1 & 2

Answer 3 .
We were told of this very same example .
If a player is juggling the ball with ball juggling forward ( he is now in possesion )
He can now be legally tackled ( doesnt go well with crowd )
Also if juggling ball & last contact makes ball go backwards , this is infact lost forward & scrum opposition . ( the very same as if he juggles ball forwards & gets a boot on it ) its scrum opposition .

I agree with answer 4

Taff
03-12-17, 21:12
... Also if juggling ball & last contact makes ball go backwards , this is in fact lost forward & scrum opposition
Have you been drinking Christy? :biggrin:

OB..
03-12-17, 21:12
2 - knock on: if a player is joggling when trying to catch the ball. If he catches the ball there is no knock on even if the first joggle is forward.
However, if he doesnt catch the ball, and the last joggle is clearly backward. Is it a knock or not ?

A player juggling the ball is deemed to be in possession (which means he can be tackled); however if he loses possession forward, it is a knock-on, but if he loses possession backward, it is not a knock-on.

If a player is running forward juggling the ball, it is bound to be knocked forward at some stage. Do we really have to check each contact with the ball to see if it was forward? I don't see that as making rugby sense.

The difficult case is when a player loses the ball forward and instead of trying to catch it, just bats it backwards. That usually happens because the ball is about to hit the ground. IMHO if he is no longer juggling the ball to try and gain control (which was the point of relaxing the original overly strict version), then he cannot bat the ball backwards to avoid being called for a knock-on. A tricky judgement call maybe, but too rare to get concerned about.

didds
03-12-17, 21:12
I like the explanation Ob regarding the "bat".

Thanks

didds

Christy
03-12-17, 21:12
Have you been drinking Christy? :biggrin:

I find the laws are easier to understand whilst drinking.
But its not a wise decesion to drink whilst reffing matches .
Because the beer spills . Too often .
However if you put a lid on it ,,it does help .

belhysys
03-12-17, 21:12
thanks OB it is almost exactly what's happen :P . Ball was passed to the player too high, so didnt catch it cleanly and after 2 / 3 juggling acts, the last one was clearly back. So I called it backwards and lots of knock on ref followed :)

belhysys
03-12-17, 21:12
Christy, you are right, the first concern is safety... safety of the beer...

Dickie E
03-12-17, 23:12
2. If an offside player made a deliberate attempt to play the ball - then I would give a PK. If the ball was knocked-on into him and he had no chance of getting out of the way, I would say accidental offside and give a scrum.



but also bearing in mind (in my bold):


11.6 (a) When an offside player cannot avoid being touched by the ball or by a team-mate carrying it, the player is accidentally offside. If the player’s team gains no advantage from this, play continues. If the player’s team gains an advantage, a scrum is formed with the opposing team throwing in the ball.

Dickie E
03-12-17, 23:12
The difficult case is when a player loses the ball forward and instead of trying to catch it, just bats it backwards. That usually happens because the ball is about to hit the ground. IMHO if he is no longer juggling the ball to try and gain control (which was the point of relaxing the original overly strict version), then he cannot bat the ball backwards to avoid being called for a knock-on. A tricky judgement call maybe, but too rare to get concerned about.

I disagree with this, as does every elite referee I have ever seen deal with this on telly.

I would see this occur several times per season.

Dickie E
04-12-17, 01:12
[FONT=inherit]3 - Pick and go. Often you see player joining the ball carrier and "sealing" the ball. Where do you draw the line between protecting the ball and sealing the ball.

I think you're describing the situation where a team mate of the ball carrier binds onto the ball carrier such that, when the ball carrier is tackled, both go to ground.

Yes, there is then the danger that the team mate will seal off and illegally prevent a contest.

In the SH and a few years ago, the elite protocol was that the ref would call "reload" and the team mate have to move smartish out of the tackle zone or face penalty. So going to ground was OK as long as he didn't linger there.

I haven't heard the "reload" call for a while now and wonder if it is out of fashion. Ian?

TigerCraig
04-12-17, 02:12
I disagree with this, as does every elite referee I have ever seen deal with this on telly.

I would see this occur several times per season.

I've seen it on TV (test lat year I think, pretty sure it was WB or NO).

It's one of those calls that would be technically right, but no one at the ground other than you and your assessor would get

menace
04-12-17, 07:12
If a player is running forward juggling the ball, it is bound to be knocked forward at some stage. Do we really have to check each contact with the ball to see if it was forward? I don't see that as making rugby sense.

The difficult case is when a player loses the ball forward and instead of trying to catch it, just bats it backwards. That usually happens because the ball is about to hit the ground. IMHO if he is no longer juggling the ball to try and gain control (which was the point of relaxing the original overly strict version), then he cannot bat the ball backwards to avoid being called for a knock-on. A tricky judgement call maybe, but too rare to get concerned about.


I disagree with this, as does every elite referee I have ever seen deal with this on telly.

I would see this occur several times per season.

If I see a player juggling it while running forward, and say juggles it for 5m forward and then bats it back and it goes behind him 1m...(ie doesn't go behind the point of the first juggle forward) then I'm calling that a knock-on. I would expect the elite would also deem so too??

As OB says the tricky one if that a player juggles it forward 1 step (1m) and then bats it back 5m behind the first contact! that one I can see being "let go"!

OB..
04-12-17, 12:12
If I see a player juggling it while running forward, and say juggles it for 5m forward and then bats it back and it goes behind him 1m...(ie doesn't go behind the point of the first juggle forward) then I'm calling that a knock-on. I would expect the elite would also deem so too??I disagree. You are requiring the referee to remember where the first contact took place so that he can decide if the ball was batted back far enough. Such considerations are not in Law 12, which does not deal with juggling

Realistically we are dealing with the sort of situation where a player fails to get proper control initially, realises he is about to be tackled, and bats the ball to a team-mate behind him. Effectively the player "in possession" is making a pass, so those rules apply.

Rich_NL
04-12-17, 12:12
If the ball is lost forward, you have to catch it to avoid a knock-on being called. If you knock it forwards and then lose it backwards, that's a knock on. If you knock it forwards and then slap/bat/flip it backwards, without first catching it, that's a knock-on.

As I recall this try was an example of the latter reasoning used to disallow a try:
http://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/6zf5n7/disallowed_try_correct_or_not/
not because the referee argued that the last knock was forwards, but because he said the ball was not regathered.

menace
04-12-17, 12:12
I disagree. You are requiring the referee to remember where the first contact took place so that he can decide if the ball was batted back far enough. Such considerations are not in Law 12, which does not deal with juggling

Realistically we are dealing with the sort of situation where a player fails to get proper control initially, realises he is about to be tackled, and bats the ball to a team-mate behind him. Effectively the player "in possession" is making a pass, so those rules apply.


Gee..ithought I was agreeing with your assertion about juggling and then batting back is a knock on??....Ill have to reread what you meant???????

belhysys
04-12-17, 18:12
Thanks Rich_NL, however I think I would disagree. As many said in the original post, nothing in the laws talks about regathering. And it was made clear in the last years that juggling is being in possession of the ball (ie you can be tackled). I would argue that if you are in possession during the juggling then the knock on can only happen on the last juggle when you lose possession.

I suspect it is an example where both calls could be defended; so the ref has to be consistent (if it is happening again) and the teams to adapt to the calls.

thepercy
04-12-17, 20:12
[QUOTE=belhysys;339061]nothing in the laws talks about regathering. QUOTE]

The definition of knock-on:
"A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it."

"Before the original player can catch it" is analogous to "regathering"

So unless you consider "batting it back" as a quick catch and then a throw. I suppose it is one of those thing you have to see, does the player have enough control during the batting to consider it caught?

crossref
04-12-17, 21:12
If the ball is lost forward, you have to catch it to avoid a knock-on being called. If you knock it forwards and then lose it backwards, that's a knock on. If you knock it forwards and then slap/bat/flip it backwards, without first catching it, that's a knock-on.

As I recall this try was an example of the latter reasoning used to disallow a try:
http://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/6zf5n7/disallowed_try_correct_or_not/
not because the referee argued that the last knock was forwards, but because he said the ball was not regathered.

I think this must be the correct answer

Dickie E
04-12-17, 21:12
I think this must be the correct answer

I don't. I think the "juggling is in possession" concept is spot on and only the last lost forward/backward determines the outcome.

How would you deal with this: lineout jumper juggles ball before batting it back to SH. Knock on?

crossref
04-12-17, 22:12
good point.

possibly then it's one of those things where the normal presumption is reversed.

if someone knocks the ball to floor then it generally it needs to be clearly and obviosuly forward, else play on
if someone juggles and loses it, I would need for it to be clearly and obviously overall backwards, else knock on.

Pinky
05-12-17, 00:12
I don't. I think the "juggling is in possession" concept is spot on and only the last lost forward/backward determines the outcome.

How would you deal with this: lineout jumper juggles ball before batting it back to SH. Knock on?

In this case, though he will have batted it back behind where he first played it.

Dickie E
05-12-17, 01:12
In this case, though he will have batted it back behind where he first played it.

So we have 3 camps (unless I have missed some):

1. juggle and ball batted backwards = knock on
2. juggle and ball batted backwards = play on
3. juggle and ball batted backwards = play on but only if ball travels past the point of initial juggle.

Rushforth
05-12-17, 01:12
So we have 3 camps (unless I have missed some):

1. juggle and ball batted backwards = knock on
2. juggle and ball batted backwards = play on
3. juggle and ball batted backwards = play on but only if ball travels past the point of initial juggle.

IV. juggle and ball batted backwards = manage as appropriate for the level of the game at grassroots. ;)

menace
05-12-17, 02:12
V. all of the above - situational with whatever looks C and O at the time....

Rich_NL
05-12-17, 10:12
I don't. I think the "juggling is in possession" concept is spot on and only the last lost forward/backward determines the outcome.

How would you deal with this: lineout jumper juggles ball before batting it back to SH. Knock on?

Manage it :D

It's not whether it's in possession, it's whether it's caught. Even though I'm no legal literalist, I don't think the law's unclear on that.

didds
05-12-17, 10:12
good point.

possibly then it's one of those things where the normal presumption is reversed.

if someone knocks the ball to floor then it generally it needs to be clearly and obviosuly forward, else play on

well, here's another debating point then.

'Cos it seems to me that on the whole any loss of possession form the hand sis blown as a KO, unless it is obviously backwards.

eg straight down is blown as a KO.

didds

Phil E
05-12-17, 10:12
It's one of those things that we will know when we see it.
Bit of a juggle ending in it going backwards play on.
Obviously gone forwards and the bat back is the only way to prevent the knock on hitting the floor. Knock on called becasue he didn't regather it.

Lets just go for clear and obvious rather than dissecting the law letter by letter.

Dickie E
05-12-17, 10:12
Obviously gone forwards and the bat back is the only way to prevent the knock on hitting the floor. Knock on called becasue he didn't regather it.



Except I have seen enough of the elite dudes call this play on, for me to side with them. Sorry.

Phil E
05-12-17, 11:12
Except I have seen enough of the elite dudes call this play on, for me to side with them. Sorry.

But your not an elite referee, or even an elite dude.

Do you ignore squint put ins like the elite dudes as well?

Different game!

Sorry.

OB..
05-12-17, 11:12
eg straight down is blown as a KO.
didds No....

didds
05-12-17, 11:12
No....

I agree OB.

But I see it blown all the time. ie KO given for a drop from the hands that is in no way C&O forward. And I can't square that circle any other way

didds

ChrisR
05-12-17, 14:12
So what is a catch? Is a one handed controlled propulsion of the ball a "catch" or a "bat"?

We are entering perilous territory by trying to judge this action at game speed. I would rather simply judge whether the last touch on the ball left the hands going back/flat or forwards.

And, I'd rather reward the athleticism and skill of the player rather than have another stoppage of the game.

Rich_NL
05-12-17, 14:12
So what is a catch? Is a one handed controlled propulsion of the ball a "catch" or a "bat"?

To intercept and hold, to grasp, to seize, to take hold of. Boxers don't play catch, as athletic and skilful as they are. :P

There's a clear distinction in holding (legal) and not holding (illegal) a player when tackling, it's not that difficult for a ball.

thepercy
05-12-17, 17:12
so what is a catch? Is a one handed controlled propulsion of the ball a "catch" or a "bat"?

judgement call.

we are entering perilous territory by trying to judge this action at game speed. I would rather simply judge whether the last touch on the ball left the hands going back/flat or forwards.


all you need to ask yourself is, did the original player catch the ball before it hit the ground or another player? This is not that difficult.

and, i'd rather reward the athleticism and skill of the player rather than have another stoppage of the game.

your rewarding the wrong team. There was a lack of athleticism and skill, resulting in a bobble/juggle, and if the original player does not (have athleticism and/or skill to) catch the ball before another player or the ground does, then the law says ko.



m s f

Dickie E
06-12-17, 03:12
But your not an elite referee, or even an elite dude.

Do you ignore squint put ins like the elite dudes as well?

Different game!

Sorry.

Be that as it may but I have more of an inclination to follow the lead of the guys that do this for a living.

menace
06-12-17, 05:12
Ok...looks like I better follow the crowd (against the law and my better judgement.)
Im making a list I call:
"Things i must not call as an infringement even though the LOTG say they are:
1) 9 digging hands in the ruck to get ball
2) crooked feeds into the scrum
3) #8 not fully bound on the locks at scrum and dribbling ball is permitted
4) fake jumpers at the lineout that feet leave the ground but they're not really jumping, AND
5) bc losing possession forwards but batting it back is NOT a knock on.

Any other laws I should ignore?
:biggrin::wink:

(Tongue firmly planted in cheek...sorry couldn't help myself. )

Dickie E
06-12-17, 05:12
5) bc losing possession forwards but batting it back is NOT a knock on.

Any other laws I should ignore?


this isn't ignoring a law. It is recognising that a player juggling the ball is in possession of it, so no outcome can be determined until after his/her last contact with the ball has occurred.

Similarly, a player initially knocks the ball backwards then, in an effort to regather it, knocks it forward. That would be a knock on. It's all about the last contact.

Dickie E
06-12-17, 05:12
Any other laws I should ignore?


You can ignore this one. Everyone else does:

(e) An incorrect quick throw-in occurs when:

•The ball is thrown in ahead of the line of touch.

The opposing team’s choices are to elect to throw in at either:
•a lineout where the quick throw was attempted, or
•a scrum on the 15-metre line at that place.

menace
06-12-17, 06:12
this isn't ignoring a law. It is recognising that a player juggling the ball is in possession of it, so no outcome can be determined until after his/her last contact with the ball has occurred.

Similarly, a player initially knocks the ball backwards then, in an effort to regather it, knocks it forward. That would be a knock on. It's all about the last contact.
I guess that's my point. I dont interpet it that way.

I dont think the clarity (?? Ironic ) of juggling possession in the laws was meant to extend to knock on...i think it was to clear up whether you could legally tackle player juggling the ball.

I think that was an unforseen consequence of poor law writing by the 12yo. But i dont know the 12yo so I can be sure what they were thinking??

As i said Ill just have to conform with the majority. I can live with that.

didds
06-12-17, 10:12
you missed out also ignoring

* Players going off their feet at the ruck
* players running interference in front of a catcher

didds

OB..
06-12-17, 11:12
I dont think the clarity (?? Ironic ) of juggling possession in the laws was meant to extend to knock on...i think it was to clear up whether you could legally tackle player juggling the ball.The Law 12 Definition does start with the concept of possession.
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward [...]

Dickie E
06-12-17, 11:12
the definitive authority:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEyK36IBD7w

thepercy
06-12-17, 17:12
The Law 12 Definition does start with the concept of possession.
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward [...]

...OR when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm...

...OR when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward...

Seems like if the Juggle Clarification was intended to cover this, they would have removed the 2 other situations that used to be knock-ons, and in your opinion are no longer knock-ons.

belhysys
06-12-17, 19:12
i didnt expect 5 pages when I ask the question about knock on :)

so it seems that we have 3 main line of thoughts.

1- if the ball is not regathered, any juggle forward (first / last or any other) is a knock on
2 - looking at the last juggle
3 - looking at the overall movement of the ball

I suspect that the ref is always right anyway :)

but based on this forum and internal discussion which finished with a similar trend :) i think that we will have to manage such occasion and communicate our thinking...

In my case, the player was more or less stationary, so 2 and 3 coud apply. I agree that some would call it forward as he didnt catch the ball. Anyway, the ball was bat back into touch so I only removed the option of the scrum and the opposition got the ball :)

crossref
06-12-17, 20:12
The only thing I'd add now is that if the juggle is such that there are thirty players thinking knock on, then blow the whistle and give one

And the reverse of course

If the decision could realistically go either way , then fill your boots

OB..
06-12-17, 22:12
The Law 12 Definition does start with the concept of possession.
A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward [...]


...OR when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm...

...OR when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward...

Seems like if the Juggle Clarification was intended to cover this, they would have removed the 2 other situations that used to be knock-ons, and in your opinion are no longer knock-ons.
I pointed out that the definition STARTS with possession since we consider juggling to constitute possession. The other considerations therefore only arise when there is no juggling involved.

The law on this point has changed somewhat over the years.

1926 re-write
Knock on or throw forward is the propulsion of the ball by hand or arm of a player in the direction of his opponents' dead ball line.

1959
A knock-on occurs when the ball is propelled by the hand or arm of a player in the direction of his opponents' dead ball line or when the ball after striking the hand or arm of a player travels in the said direction; provided that a movement of the ball in the player's grasp which is in the nature of a steadying or re-adjustment of the ball within his possession without loss of control is not a knock-on.

1979
A knock-on occurs when the ball travels forward towards the direction of the opponents' dead-ball line after:-
· a player loses possession of it, or
· a players propels or strikes it with his hand or arm, or
· it strikes a player's hand or arm.
NOTES (2) If the knock-on or throw forward is unintentional, a scrummage shall be formed [...] unless:-
· The ball is knocked on by a player who is in the act of charging down the kick of an opponent but is not attempting to catch the ball, or
· the ball is knocked on one or more times by a player who is in the act of catching or picking it up or losing possession of it and is recovered by that player before it has touched the ground or another player.


1992
at the third bullet point of 1979, the following was inserted:-
"and touches the ground or another player before it is recovered by the player."

In the 2000 re-write (current) the 1992 caveat seems to apply to all three bullet points.

(I think the law has gone too far because it allows an accidental knock forward over an opponent to be re-gathered. I've been in a game where that happened.)

Phil E
07-12-17, 10:12
I suspect that the ref is always right anyway :)


"You don't drop it and I wont blow it" usually covers it.

Paule23
07-12-17, 10:12
but also bearing in mind (in my bold):


11.6 (a) When an offside player cannot avoid being touched by the ball or by a team-mate carrying it, the player is accidentally offside. If the player’s team gains no advantage from this, play continues. If the player’s team gains an advantage, a scrum is formed with the opposing team throwing in the ball.

I know I'm a bit late to reply to this, but the highlighted text is very poorly understood by players. Any running into a team-mate leads to shouts of offside no matter whether there was advantage or not. Very unplussed players if you do not penalise this (though when has that ever stopped us!)

Phil E
07-12-17, 10:12
I know I'm a bit late to reply to this, but the highlighted text is very poorly understood by players. Any running into a team-mate leads to shouts of offside no matter whether there was advantage or not. Very unplussed players if you do not penalise this (though when has that ever stopped us!)

A loud shout of "no advantage gained, play on" usually does the trick.