PDA

View Full Version : Faking the lineout jump



ChuckieB
03-12-17, 17:12
3651

One of my real bugbears at the lineout. The player takes the small jump forwards & towards the LOT, but not across it, the opposition number falls for it and follows the 17 who is legitimately changing his position (see it in the eyes) and the ball is then taken at the front with everyone else looking the wrong way.

If I see it I am going to penalise it everytime. While not trying to draw an infringement from the opposition, I see this as faking the jump and needs to be stamped out. It is certainly unsportsmanlike in my eyes. Too harsh?

Ian_Cook
03-12-17, 18:12
3651

One of my real bugbears at the lineout. The player takes the small jump forwards & towards the LOT, but not across it, the opposition number falls for it and follows the 17 who is legitimately changing his position (see it in the eyes) and the ball is then taken at the front with everyone else looking the wrong way.

If I see it I am going to penalise it everytime. While not trying to draw an infringement from the opposition, I see this as faking the jump and needs to be stamped out. It is certainly unsportsmanlike in my eyes. Too harsh?

Too harsh? Tell me, do you PK players who dummy pass in open play?

You are PKing something that isn't an infringement. If you are thinking 19.10 (f), that's a FK anyway not a PK, but I don't think that applies here. The player is not trying to draw the opponent into an infringement, he's trying to distract the opposition from where the ball is going to be thrown, and succeeded... good on him and well done IMO.

Rugby Union would be a pretty staid and boring game if deception was an infringement (and I guess there are some people who would prefer it that way). I know there are times when it is an infringement (SH dummying at the Ruck, Maul & Scrum, and thrower dummying at the lineout) but they are specifically because they are intended to draw the opposition into offside or another infringement.

PS: your attachment was working, and now its not. Try re-attaching or hotlinking from a source using the [IMG] BBCode

didds
03-12-17, 19:12
The OP approach would mean a half step non jump at #7 in the lineout would be penalised if the ball was thrown to #2.

Nahhh


didds

Christy
03-12-17, 19:12
Maybe penalise an early lift , if it had material impact .
But if player has stayed his side of line of touch .
He can jump from his own making ( as in not been lifted ) like a jack in box if he wants ..

SimonSmith
03-12-17, 19:12
Another one of these again?

"This act doesn't within my moral worldview of what should happen in a match, so I shall penalize it"

It isn't an offence. Don't do it. Please. It' isn't right, and you're also setting next week's ref up for a problem when he correctly applies the law.

ChuckieB
03-12-17, 21:12
Too harsh? Tell me, do you PK players who dummy pass in open play?

You are PKing something that isn't an infringement. If you are thinking 19.10 (f), that's a FK anyway not a PK, but I don't think that applies here. The player is not trying to draw the opponent into an infringement, he's trying to distract the opposition from where the ball is going to be thrown, and succeeded... good on him and well done IMO.

Rugby Union would be a pretty staid and boring game if deception was an infringement (and I guess there are some people who would prefer it that way). I know there are times when it is an infringement (SH dummying at the Ruck, Maul & Scrum, and thrower dummying at the lineout) but they are specifically because they are intended to draw the opposition into offside or another infringement.

PS: your attachment was working, and now its not. Try re-attaching or hotlinking from a source using the [IMG] BBCode

concede the fk infringement rather PK. A typo on my part!

it was certainly a jump and not a "step in any direction" and material to him being the player able to take possession at the front of the line which he did when the ball did come in

So for me it is the sort of deception beyond what the laws permit. That's why I asked for a view. It's one of those things that the laŵ developments have unnecessarily added complication when all you want to do is to get the ball back in play. If WR are fan of the quick throw in, they should get rid of all this rubbish imo.

Dickie E
03-12-17, 22:12
I can't open the link but if both feet off ground at same time that is technically an early jump.

SimonSmith
03-12-17, 23:12
So for me it is the sort of deception beyond what the laws permit.

Other than personal morals, what can you base that on that would stand up to any kind of challenge?

Ian_Cook
04-12-17, 01:12
Well, there are tons of things going on at every lineout. If you are focusing on a relatively minor thing like this, I'll bet there is a good chance you could be missing far more important and material things.

menace
04-12-17, 06:12
Other than personal morals, what can you base that on that would stand up to any kind of challenge?

SimonS - I think you're being a bit harsh on chuckie. The laws are very clear under 19.10(f) that jumping before the throw in is not permitted. Perhaps in your mind you were thinking chuckie was describing a small bob where the player's feign a jump but their feet barely leave the ground - I agree that that should not result in a FK. Whereas I think chukie did clarify that it is more than a step - it is a small jump!

I think it is one to manage - you may let it go first time - but on the next lineout I would be saying to the feign jumper that he should be careful with his baulk jump that his feet do not leave the ground as it may be construed as an early jump.

menace
04-12-17, 06:12
Another one of these again?

"This act doesn't within my moral worldview of what should happen in a match, so I shall penalize it"

It isn't an offence. Don't do it. Please. It' isn't right, and you're also setting next week's ref up for a problem when he correctly applies the law.

Sorry - I'm calling this one out as unnecessarily passive aggressive response to a genuine query about a situation a referee seeking some management advice.

Chuckie asked if his management was too harsh? I don't think he deserved this response at all.

Pegleg
04-12-17, 08:12
concede the fk infringement rather PK. A typo on my part!

it was certainly a jump and not a "step in any direction" and material to him being the player able to take possession at the front of the line which he did when the ball did come in

So for me it is the sort of deception beyond what the laws permit. That's why I asked for a view. It's one of those things that the laŵ developments have unnecessarily added complication when all you want to do is to get the ball back in play. If WR are fan of the quick throw in, they should get rid of all this rubbish imo.

A working link would help people to say if they agree with your interpretation of events.

SimonSmith
04-12-17, 13:12
Sorry - I'm calling this one out as unnecessarily passive aggressive response to a genuine query about a situation a referee seeking some management advice.

Chuckie asked if his management was too harsh? I don't think he deserved this response at all.

Well, it wasn't passive aggressive, it was a straightforward statement of how I reacted to the question.

Possibly unfairly to the OP, but I get a TON of these questions over here in the US, and this was of the same ilk. I stand by my philosophical outlook on the question though.

ChrisR
04-12-17, 13:12
The lineout is (since the advent of lifting) one of the best opportunities for creative play. Please don't strangle it with unnecessary and unsupported (in law) penalties.

tim White
04-12-17, 16:12
If a player of the non-throwing side jumps early do you FK them? What if a player from each team jumps early? I appreciate the two players are jumping for different reasons but being a simple soul I would expect both teams to wait until the ball is thrown; the law as written does not differentiate -as many players will remind you if you only FK one of them.

Lee Lifeson-Peart
04-12-17, 16:12
I had quite a few jumping earlies in LOs in my game on Saturday - I did remind them a couple of times but surprisingly they appeared to have no material effect on the LOs (and as such the game) which was good. Think of a reason not to blow the whistle.:)

ChuckieB
04-12-17, 20:12
3651

One of my real bugbears at the lineout. The player takes the small jump forwards & towards the LOT, but not across it, the opposition number falls for it and follows the 17 who is legitimately changing his position (see it in the eyes) and the ball is then taken at the front with everyone else looking the wrong way.

If I see it I am going to penalise it everytime. While not trying to draw an infringement from the opposition, I see this as faking the jump and needs to be stamped out. It is certainly unsportsmanlike in my eyes. Too harsh?

hopefully now.

3654

Yes he he took a jump of from 2 slightly towards the LoT into the space occupied by 17 and the ball was then thrown directly to him and off he went.

ChuckieB
04-12-17, 21:12
And I am sure that had the ball gone to any other position in the line I would have let it go as not material but keeping an eye out.

ChuckieB
04-12-17, 21:12
Jumping early is a fine line. Having no to remind u15's u16's that they get away with it only so long as they are learning the lift and then the lift and compete. At some point they do need to recognise there are laws that do need to be applied. Otherwise such habits go unchecked and then become the norm for them.

menace
04-12-17, 21:12
Just putting this out there.
Why is it the lineout jumpers can baulk a jump...but the thrower cannot baulk a throw?

So what do you do when the opp jumps to cause the thrower to baulk his throw? FK the jumper or the thrower?

crossref
04-12-17, 22:12
Just putting this out there.
Why is it the lineout jumpers can baulk a jump...but the thrower cannot baulk a throw?

So what do you do when the opp jumps to cause the thrower to baulk his throw? FK the jumper or the thrower?

you know the answer : manage it ! :)

Pinky
04-12-17, 23:12
Given a jumper should only jump after the ball has left the thrower, any jump that makes the thrower stop is early!

Phil E
05-12-17, 09:12
Exactly.

You stay on the ground till the ball's thrown.
You throw the ball in quicker.

Now lets get on and play some rugby.

tim White
06-12-17, 17:12
YOU(eyeball jumper) stay on the ground till the ball's thrown.
YOU(eyeball thrower) throw the ball in quicker.
(quietly) 'every damn game we go through this, sigh'

Tell everyone what you expect as above. FK once and all will probably stop doing it, they will all understand.

I AM looking for reasons to not blow the whistle (as often) -this is one of the ways of achieving it, this is also called 'managing it'. A better line-out will result but you will not get any credit for this, of course.

Dickie E
07-12-17, 03:12
this is also called 'managing it'.

chinese fire drill => fake jump => opposition going early => throw not straight.

Whistle. "Gents, let's try this again, only properly this time". Never failed me yet.

menace
07-12-17, 04:12
chinese fire drill => fake jump => opposition going early => throw not straight.

Whistle. "Gents, let's try this again, only properly this time". Never failed me yet.

Although i dont disagree - used that myself - but invariably you get this.

Coach (take your pick which): "cmon ref...this is not under 12s! They dont get another go!!!"

:knuppel2:

ianh5979
07-12-17, 09:12
Although i dont disagree - used that myself - but invariably you get this.

Coach (take your pick which): "cmon ref...this is not under 12s! They dont get another go!!!"

:knuppel2:

Then penalise the complaining coaches side for whatever their offence was :biggrin:

didds
07-12-17, 11:12
the other answer is "at under 12s I doubt they get a real ref, just you [ie the coach] with a whistle"

Not intended to be a slur at anybody that coaches and almost by definition therefore refs U12s!

didds

tim White
08-12-17, 17:12
You have to be on VERY solid ground before you use sarcasm or humour, players just love to send it back to you later in the game (and that can be fun for everyone). It can work in obvious mess-ups or with players you know well -or you are a natural comedian, but is that how you want the players to think of you in this role?

tim White
08-12-17, 17:12
NB. Early jumpers nearly always affect the subsequent throw; decide if it was material, proceed from there.

Opposition front jumpers tend to force an change in length/trajectory of throw, own team jump early may just be over-excitement or dummying opposition; decide if it was material, proceed from there.

didds
08-12-17, 18:12
... and decide whether it was actually a jump of course...

didds