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shnipvanwinkel
06-01-18, 15:01
Hello all!

Perhaps this is a slightly rookie question, but anyway...

In the situation where the tackler does this, obviously this is tackler not releasing, but I have had a few other situations where this has happened: the player first arriving at the ruck (i.e. forming the ruck) goes to collect the ball and makes it seem as though the player on the ground is not releasing by binding on to him. What is the correct call and signal in this situation?

Thanks!

Christy
06-01-18, 18:01
Hi shnip
If im reading correctly .
Tackle occurs & tackled player lays ball on floor in front of him self , waiting for his team mate to come & get ball ( or form ruck if he chooses )

Are you saying opposition to tackled player gets there 1st ( as in tacklers team mate ) comes to tackle area .
Crouches over tackled player as in to poach ball , but instead , decides to help guy on floor keep his own ball ,,and trying to milk a penalty for not releasing .

If so , i would play on .
And fairly soon im sure he would be cleaned out by a team mate of tackled player .

If same person says stuff like ref , ref he is not releasing .
I would advise he plays the ball & not the player .
As the tackled player by law , must be able to place ball .

Phil E
06-01-18, 18:01
"Never on the ball...play on"

thepercy
06-01-18, 23:01
"Never on the ball...play on"

If it becomes a trend or prevents a contest somehow you could do him for 14.8.a (18)

crossref
07-01-18, 09:01
The offence here is (c)

7. A player must not:
a. Intentionally infringe any law of the game.
b. Intentionally knock, place, push or throw the ball with arm or hand from the
playing area.
c. Do anything that may lead the match officials to consider that an opponent has
committed an infringement.

First time you see this you might want to play on, with a loud shout to make sure the players know you have spotted it, but you shouldn't ignore it.
Or you might well PK it straight away

Pinky
07-01-18, 21:01
Agree as long as you are sure it is the arriving player who is at fault. As soon as there is an arriving player we have been told to ask whether anyone is doing something illegal to stop him getting the ball. That would in my view include the tackled player placing the ball out of the arriving players reach. As soon as there is someone on their feet trying legally to play the ball, they have all the rights and other players lose them.

beckett50
07-01-18, 21:01
Have a word at the next appropriate interval - be scrum or line out.

As Phil E has alluded, this call usually explains your reasoning in real time. You may also want to use the "He couldn't realise because you were holding him in". In my experience early verbal identification of - let us call it - less than fair play by the attacking team (or the defending team) prevents tempers fraying and should nip it in the bud.

Deal with the 'cheating' early and you should have a trouble free game.

Remember to use downtime to speak with players. Praise positive play and also use the time to identify areas where actions may not be as positive as you would like. The message conveyed, should be similar to both teams in the interests of fairness and equity.

shnipvanwinkel
17-01-18, 10:01
Hi shnip
If im reading correctly .
Tackle occurs & tackled player lays ball on floor in front of him self , waiting for his team mate to come & get ball ( or form ruck if he chooses )

Are you saying opposition to tackled player gets there 1st ( as in tacklers team mate ) comes to tackle area .
Crouches over tackled player as in to poach ball , but instead , decides to help guy on floor keep his own ball ,,and trying to milk a penalty for not releasing .

If so , i would play on .
And fairly soon im sure he would be cleaned out by a team mate of tackled player .

If same person says stuff like ref , ref he is not releasing .
I would advise he plays the ball & not the player .
As the tackled player by law , must be able to place ball .

Exactly right, thanks for this. Confirms my suspicions, but just dead annoying when players pull this one.

OB..
17-01-18, 15:01
I would advise he plays the ball & not the player .
As the tackled player by law , must be able to place ball .
The tackled player is indeed allowed to place/pass the ball, but only if there is time to do so unhindered. The opponent is entitled to go for the ball and the tackled player must then release it.

shnipvanwinkel
17-01-18, 17:01
The tackled player is indeed allowed to place/pass the ball, but only if there is time to do so unhindered. The opponent is entitled to go for the ball and the tackled player must then release it.

Yes that's C&O, but I was talking more about the situation where the arriving player was simulating not releasing to win a PK.

OB..
17-01-18, 18:01
[...] I was talking more about the situation where the arriving player was simulating not releasing to win a PK.If C&O that is indeed an offence. If not C&O, it deserves a stern word of "mandatory advice".

ChrisR
17-01-18, 19:01
Here's your problem:

2018 Law 14 Tackle

7. Tackled players must immediately:
a. Make the ball available so that play can continue by releasing, passing or pushing the ball in any direction except forward. They may place the ball in any direction.
b. Move away from the ball or get up.
c. Ensure that they do not lie on, over or near the ball to prevent opposition players from gaining possession of it.

Once the tackled player has placed the ball and the opponent has his hands on it the onus is on the tackled player to not interfere, not the poacher to get the ball over the tackled player.
So a PK against the tackled player is appropriate. Yes, the poacher is milking for the PK but he is only able to do this because the tackled player got isolated, the poacher got there first and got his hands on the ball before the TPs teammates could drive him off.

So who's playing the better rugby? And who is on the wrong side of the law?

davsas
19-02-18, 15:02
In relation to one of the earlier replies I had the ( losing ) team on Saturday say I was not reffing the ruck correctly as I was not allowing the tackled player to place the ball, but the opposition were very quick at getting over the ball and contesting for it, which I explained. They still insisted I should be, under the laws, be allowing the tackled player to place the ball! I disagree

Pinky
19-02-18, 15:02
In relation to one of the earlier replies I had the ( losing ) team on Saturday say I was not reffing the ruck correctly as I was not allowing the tackled player to place the ball, but the opposition were very quick at getting over the ball and contesting for it, which I explained. They still insisted I should be, under the laws, be allowing the tackled player to place the ball! I disagree

Dave, I agree with you. We as coaches were recommended this year to be looking to see if there was something stopping the legally arriving player playing the ball, eg the tackled player holding on, and penalise that as the first offence. So if a player is on his feet, approaching on-side, and gets hands on the ball (if tackler or tackle assist has to get back to feet and have clear separation from tackled palyer) then the tackled player needs to let go. He does not get allowed to hold on to it until he is ready to place the ball.

didds
19-02-18, 15:02
... and never has !

another myth maybe?

didds

Christy
19-02-18, 15:02
In relation to one of the earlier replies I had the ( losing ) team on Saturday say I was not reffing the ruck correctly as I was not allowing the tackled player to place the ball, but the opposition were very quick at getting over the ball and contesting for it, which I explained. They still insisted I should be, under the laws, be allowing the tackled player to place the ball! I disagree

hi davsas
the way we have been told to ref same is ..
the team who puts ball back for his team mate . following tackle
where opposition jackler comes in , allow ball carrying team mate an opportunity to basically clean jackler out of same 1st .

if cleaners are too slow to come in , then this will be easy to see if player on ground his holding on to ball .
but if cleaner can blow him out , play on .

however if jackler has gone past ball with hands on floor , & he manages to scope ball back with him , whilst cleaner pushes him back .
we are now looking to penalise jackler .

but we all have to be honest & appreciate every break down has to be reffed by what & how you see it , at that time .

OB..
19-02-18, 17:02
This is a variation on the old cry of "You've got to let him up!"

Yes, it is legal for the tackled player to place the ball. Similarly it is legal for a player to score a try. However there are legal ways of stopping him, and the same applies to tackled player trying to place the ball. If the jackler gets to the ball before it has been placed, he has all the rights. The tackled player has to release.

Marc Wakeham
20-02-18, 13:02
Here's your problem:

2018 Law 14 Tackle

7. Tackled players must immediately:
a. Make the ball available so that play can continue by releasing, passing or pushing the ball in any direction except forward. They may place the ball in any direction.
b. Move away from the ball or get up.
c. Ensure that they do not lie on, over or near the ball to prevent opposition players from gaining possession of it.

Once the tackled player has placed the ball and the opponent has his hands on it the onus is on the tackled player to not interfere, not the poacher to get the ball over the tackled player.
So a PK against the tackled player is appropriate. Yes, the poacher is milking for the PK but he is only able to do this because the tackled player got isolated, the poacher got there first and got his hands on the ball before the TPs teammates could drive him off.

So who's playing the better rugby? And who is on the wrong side of the law?

But The Jackle can't pull the ball into the tackled player to milk a PK. It is a coache technique to pull the ball into the tackled player in defensive situations to get the relieving PK. Whilst in the oppo 22 try to get quick ball to go fro the Turnover try.

Jolly Roger
20-02-18, 23:02
I could not agree more with all that is being said here. For me this is the most important aspect of reffing the game, after safety, and the one area that the pro game is so woefully out of line.

It is no surprise that players keep saying that they “have the right to lay the ball back” and that players dive over / across / in front... and then complain about getting pinged.

I know what to do, you know what to do, then why the hell does this not get reffed in the Pro game? Scotland v France last weekend was prime example of anarchy at the breakdown; dive over and seal off so long as you are on the ball carrier’s side...

Sorry, think I might have made this point before....

ChrisR
21-02-18, 12:02
It is now a standard practice for players to execute a roll (or two) after the tackle to gain ground, buy time for support to arrive and prevent the ops from getting hands on the ball.

Has anyone ever seen even an admonition from a referee?

crossref
21-02-18, 12:02
It is now a standard practice for players to execute a roll (or two) after the tackle to gain ground, buy time for support to arrive and prevent the ops from getting hands on the ball.

Has anyone ever seen even an admonition from a referee?

I don't let them do that.
If it prevents the oppo from getting the ball I PK it first time. If the only effect was to steal an unimportant metre i would have a word first time, and the PK if they keep doing it

Elpablo73
21-02-18, 18:02
I've disallow a try due to a player rolling into the in-goal after being tackled and all forward motion stopped. If he'd played the ball his support would have scored - 3 support players against a lone tackler getting back up.

Because I didn't give the try I got both barrels from him, accusing me of being a cheat and not knowing the F*****g rules :norc:; his coach had told him he could roll as long as no-one was in the way!