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shnipvanwinkel
21-01-18, 05:01
Maybe this belongs in the new laws section, but thought I would ask our resident scrum "experts".

I was slightly disappointed that there was no further clarification in the new law book regarding the legality of a flanker binding onto a lock without binding onto a prop. Presumably this is still legal?

tim White
21-01-18, 11:01
The players in the scrum bind in the following way:
The props bind to the hooker.
The hooker binds with both arms. This can be either over or under the arms of the props.
The locks bind with the props immediately in front of them and with each other.
All other players in the scrum bind on a lock’s body with at least one arm.
Sanction: Penalty

Phil E
21-01-18, 11:01
Not sure what you are getting at.

Locks must bind onto each other and the FR. Flankers bind only onto the locks. This has not changed between 2017 and 2018 even if the wording has (slightly).

2017
(f) Binding by all other players. All players in a scrum , other than front-row players , must bind
on a lock’s body with at least one arm prior to the scrum engagement. The locks must bind
with the props in front of them. No other player other than a prop may hold an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty kick

2018
c. The locks bind with the props immediately in front of them and with each other.
d. All other players in the scrum bind on a lock’s body with at least one arm.

shnipvanwinkel
21-01-18, 18:01
Yep, badly worded, sorry.

Here is the conventional scrum

3684

and this is where the 2 flankers can also bind:

3685

whilst the 8 can bind between the locks as above, or between one lock and a flanker on either side. Uncommon but legal, yes?

beckett50
21-01-18, 19:01
Can't for the life of me see the difference between the 2 pictures.

Flankers can ONLY bind on the locks but they (obviously) shove on the props.

The #8 can EITHER bind between the two locks (as shown in the pictures) OR between a lock and a flanker. HOWEVER, he must choose where before the scrum starts and cannot change once the ball has been thrown into the scrum.

OB..
21-01-18, 20:01
Can't for the life of me see the difference between the 2 pictures.

Flankers can ONLY bind on the locks but they (obviously) shove on the props.

The #8 can EITHER bind between the two locks (as shown in the pictures) OR between a lock and a flanker. HOWEVER, he must choose where before the scrum starts and cannot change once the ball has been thrown into the scrum.
The arrows are meant to indicate the flankers moving back to bind with their shoulder on the locks ie the old-fashioned 3-2-3 formation.

That seems to be still legal, though I haven't seen it for years.

beckett50
21-01-18, 20:01
Thanks OB.

didds
21-01-18, 21:01
Maybe this belongs in the new laws section, but thought I would ask our resident scrum "experts".

I was slightly disappointed that there was no further clarification in the new law book regarding the legality of a flanker binding onto a lock without binding onto a prop. Presumably this is still legal?

i wouln't expect a flanker to bind on a 2nd row and a prop.

I used to hate bloody flankers that wrapped their outside hand onto my outside thigh.

A punch or two usually got rid of them.

didds

Zebra1922
22-01-18, 00:01
It looks legal but what is the point? The front row are not going to thank anyone for the loss of support locking them into the scrum, assisting them shoving and staying upright etc. I got many as bollocking as an inexperience 6 or 7 for not pushing through my prop.

Not Kurt Weaver
22-01-18, 02:01
I got many as bollocking as an inexperience 6 or 7 for not pushing through my prop.

Sounds like they were blaming you for their failings.

Pinky
22-01-18, 12:01
I don't think a flanker can bind on a prop if he is already bound full arm on a lock.

didds
22-01-18, 12:01
I can't even think where a flanker WOULD bind onto a prop in any meaningful manner if already bound on a 2nd row.

And certainly not one that wouldn't have p1$$3d me off!

didds

Not Kurt Weaver
22-01-18, 13:01
I don't think a flanker can bind on a prop if he is already bound full arm on a lock.

Well TBH, we former wing breakaways do have broad shoulders and long arms that enable us to stay what appears to be bound to both the prop and 2nd row simultaneously. We are able to full arm bind on 2nd row, and still have enough shoulder remaining to cover the width of the back side of even the huskimost prop.(approx. 24"). So yes, our shoulders are 4 foot wide minimum.

ChrisR
22-01-18, 14:01
From 2017 Law 20 Definitions:

The outside players who bind onto the second or third row are the flankers.
The player in the third row who usually pushes on both locks is the No.8.
Alternatively , the No. 8 may push on a lock and a flanker.


There is no equivalence in 2018 laws.

There are several tactical reasons for flanks to bind as a third row.

shnipvanwinkel
22-01-18, 17:01
Well TBH, we former wing breakaways do have broad shoulders and long arms that enable us to stay what appears to be bound to both the prop and 2nd row simultaneously. We are able to full arm bind on 2nd row, and still have enough shoulder remaining to cover the width of the back side of even the huskimost prop.(approx. 24"). So yes, our shoulders are 4 foot wide minimum.

3688

This chap manages

(Yes, I realise he is not bound to the prop. I worded it badly again. Must we all be such pedants?)

Edit: Huskimost is my new favourite word. Surely a candidate for the OED word of the year 2018.

didds
22-01-18, 18:01
whilst the 8 can bind between the locks as above, or between one lock and a flanker on either side. Uncommon but legal, yes?

#8 between a flank and a lock yes, legal (at adult rugby).

leaving aside the legality wrt binding on a lock, a flanker bound into the third row is more likely surely to be placed with a head between the other flanker and a lock, adjacent to the #8 in the normal #8 position between both locks. At a push a legal bind might be argued by packing down between a flank and a lock and with a long arm forwards bind grasping the shirt of the lock with the armpit against the locks' behind.

tactical reasoning ? something along the lines of (depending on which side the 3rd row flanker packs)

* increased drive on that side
* widening channel 1
* closing off (protecting) channel 1
* increased support to an attack/defence on that side (bit dodgy wrtd efence maybe !)



didds

crossref
22-01-18, 18:01
In the 2018 Laws I am not sure the flanker is allowed to be in the third row alongside the #8 .. I don't see how he can really bind on to a lock's body from there... He would be binding to the #8 with one arm, and the other arm free

thepercy
22-01-18, 19:01
In the 2018 Laws I am not sure the flanker is allowed to be in the third row alongside the #8 .. I don't see how he can really bind on to a lock's body from there... He would be binding to the #8 with one arm, and the other arm free

19.7.D (2018)

"All other players in the scrum bind on a lock's body with AT LEAST ONE ARM."

My emphasis.

He would bind on the lock similarly to the way the #8 binds on the lock.

crossref
22-01-18, 20:01
1 that's not how flankers used to bind way back when it was 3-2-3

But more importantly .. is that actually possible once the #8 is bound ? Is it possible ? Would your arm go between the #8 head and the lock's thigh ?

thepercy
22-01-18, 20:01
1 that's not how flankers used to bind way back when it was 3-2-3

But more importantly .. is that actually possible once the #8 is bound ? Is it possible ? Would your arm go between the #8 head and the lock's thigh ?

I've never seen the 3-2-3 so I have no reference to how that was done.

You could have the flanker with his head outside the locks loose hip, inside arm could be around the inside hip or arm bent 90 degrees and on the back, or through the legs like locks do on props. The #8 could be on the lock and flanker on the opposite side, or could be between the locks and be over or under the flankers arm, or bent 90 degrees and on the back or through the legs.

crossref
22-01-18, 21:01
it was done the natural way - exactly as a flanker currently binds to the lock, pushing on the prop, in the old days bound to the #8, pushing on a lock

He could, easily enough bind through the lock's legs and grab the waistband (as a lock does to the prop) -- but that's not binding to the body either.


The old Laws were ambiguous - they said that flankers must bind to a lock's body, but they ALSO said flankers could be in the third row, which wasn't really consistent with that. Perhaps the 2018 Laws decided to remove that ambiguity

It's another interesting one - I'll add it to my annoying table of differences :)

crossref
22-01-18, 21:01
oh, well, this clears it up ...

2018
19.5 When both teams have 15 players, eight players from each team bind together in
formation as outlined in the diagram. Each team must have two props and one hooker in
the front row and two locks in the second row. Three back-row players from each team
complete the scrum. Sanction: Penalty

The diagram has the flankers alongside the locks.

So that's as clear as it could be - flankers not allowed in the third row.

shnipvanwinkel
22-01-18, 21:01
Interesting. That would seem to indicate that the 8 can no longer switch between channel 1 2 and 3 then.

crossref
22-01-18, 21:01
Interesting. That would seem to indicate that the 8 can no longer switch between channel 1 2 and 3 then.

Indeed ! I didn't even think of that.

shnipvanwinkel
22-01-18, 21:01
Just realised I started this in the RL section. Would one of the Mods be so kind as to move it?

didds
23-01-18, 11:01
19.7.D (2018)

"All other players in the scrum bind on a lock's body with AT LEAST ONE ARM."

My emphasis.

He would bind on the lock similarly to the way the #8 binds on the lock.

Good thought TP.

So clearly the flank CAN bind on a 2nd row and 3rd row positioning is legal.

Though the bit about "must form as in the picture" then disallows it.

Nothing like simplifying the laws eh?

didds