PDA

View Full Version : [Law] Scrum ends



crossref
21-01-18, 12:01
This was posed to me by a scrum half yesterday

If the ball is clearly behind the locks and at the #8 feet, and the #8 is not bound properly (hands only)...

then is the scrum over ?

didds
21-01-18, 12:01
see posts passim about the same topic

didds

crossref
21-01-18, 12:01
Really ?
Obviously not paying enough attention :-(

didds
21-01-18, 12:01
http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?20589-Ball-at-8-s-feet-His-bind-changes-into-only-hands-on-What-should-you-do&highlight=unbound

http://www.rugbyrefs.com/showthread.php?20514-When-is-the-No8-fair-game&highlight=unbound

ChrisR
21-01-18, 14:01
2017 Law 20.10 Ending the scrum
(c) Hindmost player unbinds. The hindmost player in a scrum is the player whose feet are
nearest the teamís own goal line. If the hindmost player unbinds from the scrum with the
ball at that playerís feet and picks up the ball , the scrum ends.

2018 Law 19 Ending a scrum
b. When the ball reaches the feet of the hindmost player and it is picked up by that
player or is played by that teamís scrum-half.

More subtle wording changes '17 to '18.

I know it must be there but I can't find any reference that requires players to remain bound until the scrum ends or, 2018 Laws, prohibits the hindmost player from picking up the ball prior to unbinding.

Clearly the scrum hasn't ended until the ball is picked up but where is the violation of law for the #8 binding only with hands?

beckett50
21-01-18, 19:01
This goes to the basis that are no new Laws in the simplification re-write to the Laws.

The 2018 version states:


All other players in the scrum bind on a lock’s body with at least one arm.

so if the 8 is not bound with at least one arm then he is unbound and not part of the scrum and seeing as the ball is probably beyond the feet of the two locks then the ball is out.

Dickie E
21-01-18, 21:01
so if the 8 is not bound with at least one arm then he is unbound and not part of the scrum and seeing as the ball is probably beyond the feet of the two locks then the ball is out.


But if #8 releases his bind and fails to pick up the ball, isn't that an offence in its own right? Ie scrum ending or not is a moot question

ChrisR
21-01-18, 21:01
. . . . even without him picking it up? I agree with you on this but both '17 & '18 explicitly state 'picked up'.

Dickie E
21-01-18, 21:01
I know it must be there but I can't find any reference that requires players to remain bound until the scrum ends

either can I :shrug:

ChrisR
21-01-18, 21:01
This raises the following:

If the ball is under the locks feet can the #8 unbind first before he retrieves the ball?

Dickie E
21-01-18, 22:01
This raises the following:

If the ball is under the locks feet can the #8 unbind first before he retrieves the ball?

Yes ... not sure how he could do otherwise.

What he can't do is unbind, then not pick the ball up.

crossref
21-01-18, 22:01
so I think the answer to my OP question is that the scrum is not over, but #8 is committing a PK offence by not binding properly.




The players in the scrum bind in the following way:
a. The props bind to the hooker.
b. The hooker binds with both arms. This can be either over or under the arms of the
props.
c. The locks bind with the props immediately in front of them and with each other.
d. All other players in the scrum bind on a lockís body with at least one arm.

Flish
21-01-18, 22:01
so I think the answer to my OP question is that the scrum is not over, but #8 is committing a PK offence by not binding properly.

All other players in the scrum bind on a lock’s body with at least one arm Sanction:Penalty.

I had this yesterday, or similar, 8 unbound, placed hands on ball at locks feet, then seemed to change his mind and went to rebound again. I gave PK against.

beckett50
22-01-18, 14:01
This raises the following:

If the ball is under the locks feet can the #8 unbind first before he retrieves the ball?

Not a problem at all, seeing as the Law clearly states he only needs to bind with ONE arm. So, he releases one arm and reaches forward to pick up the ball from the feet of the locks.

Nigib
22-01-18, 18:01
Not a problem at all, seeing as the Law clearly states he only needs to bind with ONE arm. So, he releases one arm and reaches forward to pick up the ball from the feet of the locks.

Surely as soon as he picks up the ball, the scrum is over? And if he remains bound then his players in the scrum are obstructing? I would try and manage the situation by either calling the ball out or use it. I can't see how this is tactically useful, as the oppo 9 is usually waiting to go for the ball at the earliest opportunity.

ctrainor
22-01-18, 20:01
We all agree that the no8 can attempt to pick the ball out of the scrum now.
What if he has a full arm bind with one arm and picks the ball up with the other, scrum over?
This has happened to me a few times and that's what I've called

OB..
23-01-18, 12:01
We all agree that the no8 can attempt to pick the ball out of the scrum now.
What if he has a full arm bind with one arm and picks the ball up with the other, scrum over?
This has happened to me a few times and that's what I've calledAgreed. Otherwise it is handling in the scrum.

ChrisR
23-01-18, 13:01
I think the law mod that allows the #8 to retrieve the ball from under the locks feet is expecting the #8 to unbind first. Staying bound with one arm and scooping up the ball has to be handling in the scrum.

Camquin
23-01-18, 14:01
If the scrum has ended it is obstruction from the players in front.

crossref
23-01-18, 14:01
Most of the posts on the thread are focused on the situation where the 8 picks up the ball, and remain bound

I was more asking about the reverse .. he is not binding properly and the ball is at his feet

Phil E
23-01-18, 15:01
Most of the posts on the thread are focused on the situation where the 8 picks up the ball, and remain bound

I was more asking about the reverse .. he is not binding properly and the ball is at his feet

Shout "Use IT" and then have a word at the next scrum.

crossref
23-01-18, 15:01
Yes.

I think the answer is that the scrum hasn't ended , but 8 is committing a PK for breaking bind , which you may or may not blow for

Camquin
23-01-18, 17:01
If the other 7 have enough grunt to keep the scrum moving forward without him, is it material that the 8 is chariot riding?
If the scrum has stopped and the ball is available then they need to use the ball immediately.

Dickie E
23-01-18, 19:01
Shout "Use IT"

do you also then give him the 5 seconds to do so?

beckett50
23-01-18, 20:01
do you also then give him the 5 seconds to do so?

On the first occasion, then next time (after 'The Word") then no.

Although if were L7 and up I would be tempted to just call the ball out in that scenario.

crossref
23-01-18, 20:01
If the other 7 have enough grunt to keep the scrum moving forward without him, is it material that the 8 is chariot riding?.

You can decide it's not material , as I did .. and then opposing scrum half comes round and takes the ball from under his feet , on the grounds that if the 8 wasn't binding properly the scrum is over .. which is what happened ...

So was the scrum over ???

I think not , but ..

Pinky
24-01-18, 16:01
You can decide it's not material , as I did .. and then opposing scrum half comes round and takes the ball from under his feet , on the grounds that if the 8 wasn't binding properly the scrum is over .. which is what happened ...

So was the scrum over ???

I think not , but ..

So it became material and you have to decide who you will penalise - the SH for (presumably) being offside or handling in the scrum or the no8 for not being bound properly. I would need to see it to decide but I would be inclined to penalise the no8.

didds
24-01-18, 16:01
Purely on the old fashioned "equity" concept it would seem harsh to PK the scrum half for "not understanding" something that the ref himself "doesn't understand" .

(that's not a dig at anybody!)

didds

crossref
24-01-18, 17:01
The SH understood the issue all right !
(we had a chat after)

Yes, I penalised the SH

IMO the #8 binding poorly does not end the scrum
The scrum ends when/if the #8 picks up

So I think the SH was committing an offence by coming in for the ball before the scrum

Was the #8 committing a prior, material PK offence?:
I don't think he was .. in that situation it's not material.

didds
24-01-18, 18:01
Fair enough CR, you were the guy there.

So how long would you allow the #8 to maintain that scenario while the oppo #9 has to just look on at a #8 that isn't bound but the scrum isn't over?

didds

crossref
24-01-18, 18:01
As long as the scrum is moving , and when it stops call use it

Pinky
25-01-18, 18:01
As long as the scrum is moving , and when it stops call use it

Think that is allowing the no8 too much of a tactical advantage. What would you do if the defending 8 was to pop up too?

crossref
25-01-18, 18:01
But what material advantage is the attacking 8 getting, really ?

(If the defending back row break binds it's much more clearly material as it means they can defend more effectively)

Pinky
25-01-18, 18:01
But what material advantage is the attacking 8 getting, really ?

(If the defending back row break binds it's much more clearly material as it means they can defend more effectively)

He is able to assess at a relatively leisurely pace the defense ranged against him and presumably on the basis of what he see decide when to pick up the ball and go.

crossref
25-01-18, 19:01
How material is that really .. as with the posts above it feels like 'have a word in the downtime' rather than reaching for the whistle

didds
26-01-18, 09:01
But what material advantage is the attacking 8 getting, really ?

(If the defending back row break binds it's much more clearly material as it means they can defend more effectively)

and if the #8 has all-but-broken early it gives that brief moment of advantage potentially. It permits the #8 a clear vsiion of what defnse is where in advance of picking the ball up.

The law makers obviously saw it as having an unfair advantage ?

didds

Marc Wakeham
26-01-18, 10:01
A number 8 breaking his bind is more material than many other offences . A couple of milliseconds when breaking from a scrum can have a huge impact on play.

ChrisR
26-01-18, 11:01
Can anyone point to where the Law requires players in a scrum to maintain their bind until the scrum ends?

Flish
26-01-18, 11:01
Can anyone point to where the Law requires players in a scrum to maintain their bind until the scrum ends?

http://laws.worldrugby.org/?law=19

New law numbers, but 19.11.d;




All players’ binding is maintained for the duration of the scrum.

Marc Wakeham
26-01-18, 11:01
2017 stated:
20.3 BINDING IN THE SCRUM
DEFINITIONS
When a player binds on a team-mate that player must use the whole arm from
Hand to shoulder to grasp the team-mate’s body at or below the level of the armpit. Placing only a hand on another player is not satisfactory binding.
(a) Binding by all front row players. All front row players must bind firmly and continuously from the start to the finish of the scrum.

Sanction: Penalty kick
(f) Binding by all other players. All players in a scrum , other than front-row players , must bind on a lock’s body with at least one arm prior to the scrum engagement. The locks must bind with the props in front of them. No other player other than a prop may hold an opponent.

Sanction: Penalty kick

If a ref / player / coach argued that 20.3 (f) - the bit underlined - means that non front row only had to bind "Prior" the clarification in the 2018 book make it clear that is not so.

ChrisR
26-01-18, 12:01
Yes, continuous binding has been the law for a long time but the 2018 authors put the requirement in a strange place.

xxGoosexx
22-02-18, 21:02
It was touched on during this thread and others but I don't think a consensus was reached - that is, what is ruled when the No.8 has the ball at his feet, unbinds and moves away from the scrum without picking up the ball?

Once he unbinds, the ball is in open play (behind the locks feet) so the ball must be out of the scrum as soon as he breaks away.

Had it happen twice last season - No.8 breaks blind without the ball then halfback takes the ball and goes open. The law says: Restricted practices at a scrum include: "Scrum-half attempting to make an opponent believe the ball is out of the scrum when it is not." so it's not the halfback dummying in anyway, he's quite legit.

- xxGoosexx

crossref
22-02-18, 21:02
It was touched on during this thread and others but I don't think a consensus was reached - that is, what is ruled when the No.8 has the ball at his feet, unbinds and moves away from the scrum without picking up the ball?

Once he unbinds, the ball is in open play (behind the locks feet) so the ball must be out of the scrum as soon as he breaks away.

Had it happen twice last season - No.8 breaks blind without the ball then halfback takes the ball and goes open. The law says: Restricted practices at a scrum include: "Scrum-half attempting to make an opponent believe the ball is out of the scrum when it is not." so it's not the halfback dummying in anyway, he's quite legit.

- xxGoosexx

He can only unbind in order to pick up the ball
If he unbinds without picking it up, it's an offence: not remaining bound

Phil E
23-02-18, 10:02
Agreed.
He must unbind and pick up the ball in one motion, otherwise he has released his bind early.

Since the introduction of the ball being able to be played when its under the locks feet, I also get the No 8 playing the ball back with one hand, without releasing the bind with his other arm. This is not to pick up the ball but to bring it back for the SH. It's handling in the scrum, but I have been warning the first time as so many teams have been doing it that it must be a confusion over the change in law.

crossref
23-02-18, 11:02
Agreed.
He must unbind and pick up the ball in one motion, otherwise he has released his bind early.

Since the introduction of the ball being able to be played when its under the locks feet, I also get the No 8 playing the ball back with one hand, without releasing the bind with his other arm. This is not to pick up the ball but to bring it back for the SH. It's handling in the scrum, but I have been warning the first time as so many teams have been doing it that it must be a confusion over the change in law.

How do these things spread ? Here in London last weekend I warned the 8 about doing exactly that

Phil E
23-02-18, 11:02
Well we went from This (2017):

(b) All players: Handling in the scrum. Players must not handle the ball in the scrum or pick it
up with their legs.
Sanction: Penalty kick

To This (Law Trial):

Handling in the scrum – exception
Law 20.9 (b)
The number eight shall be allowed to pick the ball from the feet of the second-rows.
Rationale: To promote continuity.

To This (2018):

24. Any player within the scrum may play the ball but only with their feet or lower legs and
they must not lift the ball. Sanction: Penalty.

So its no wonder people don't know what they can do.

I suspect when teams had the Law Trials talk No 8's saw the middle bit above and thought they could pull it back as well as pick it up. Trying to pick it up from the locks feet is difficult becasue as soon as the No 8 stop pushing to unbind the scrum gets nudged back and he then can't reach in for the ball (becasue its going away from him), so he tries to pull it back first and then play it...or just pull it back for the SH to play it.