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oldman
15-02-18, 11:02
Guys,
A question. I have just watched the tape on the England Rugby web site about the training session with Georgia yesterday (Wednesday). At the start an active scrum is shown, the England No 8 (Hughes I think) starts with a conventional bind then during the scrum switch to a crutch bind. My question is it legal or not?

TheBFG
15-02-18, 12:02
i'd not have an issue with this, might have a word at the next break in play, bit like moving from channel 1 to between the 2 locks, technically a PK, but a real "gotcha!" type of offence.

Balones
15-02-18, 13:02
Is it ilegal? The type of bind is not really specified to my knowledge as long as it is a full arm.
The technique descibed is used because science/research has shown that you can generate more force that way. All about marginal gains.

Phil E
15-02-18, 14:02
Is it ilegal? The type of bind is not really specified to my knowledge as long as it is a full arm.
The technique descibed is used because science/research has shown that you can generate more force that way. All about marginal gains.

Yes if both arms are binding that way.

The players in the scrum bind in the following way:
a. The props bind to the hooker.
b. The hooker binds with both arms. This can be either over or under the arms of the
props.
c. The locks bind with the props immediately in front of them and with each other.
d. All other players in the scrum bind on a lock’s body with at least one arm.

But like BFG I would note it and have a word.

didds
15-02-18, 15:02
so if #8 starts with two arms around the outside with a full arm bind, he can then release one arm and be legal. that arm can then crotch bind. Now he's back to two full arm binds. then he releases the other arm and remains legal, and crotch binds with the second arm.

Totally legal as long as its done one arm at a time.

didds

ChrisR
15-02-18, 15:02
No problem for me as I can't see making a case against it.

And what would you say in a 'quiet word'?

Balones
15-02-18, 16:02
Yes if both arms are binding that way.

The players in the scrum bind in the following way:
a. The props bind to the hooker.
b. The hooker binds with both arms. This can be either over or under the arms of the
props.
c. The locks bind with the props immediately in front of them and with each other.
d. All other players in the scrum bind on a lock’s body with at least one arm.

But like BFG I would note it and have a word.

If you have a bind as described in the OP why can't it be deemed to be on the lock's body with at least one arm. What constitutes a 'body'?

TheBFG
15-02-18, 16:02
I've now seen the video, no issues with it, but i stick by what i said with regards to changing channels :wink:

Phil E
15-02-18, 16:02
Crotch bind is not a legal bind for a No 8.

Binding is in the definitions and states...

Binding: Grasping another player’s body firmly between the shoulders and the hips with the
whole arm in contact from hand to shoulder.

So a crotch bind isn't actually a bind under law. Law states bind with at least on arm, so a double crotch bind would be illegal.



And what would you say in a 'quiet word'?

"You need to bind with at least one arm on a locks body, double crotch bind is illegal, don't let me see you do it again please."
If he does it's an easy PK with a "I did warn you".

ChrisR
15-02-18, 16:02
Crotch bind is not a legal bind for a No 8.

Binding is in the definitions and states...

Binding: Grasping another player’s body firmly between the shoulders and the hips with the
whole arm in contact from hand to shoulder.

So a crotch bind isn't actually a bind under law. Law states bind with at least on arm, so a double crotch bind would be illegal.




"You need to bind with at least one arm on a locks body, double crotch bind is illegal, don't let me see you do it again please."
If he does it's an easy PK with a "I did warn you".

Then locks are binding illegally and the standard #8 bind doesn't meet the criteria, either.

The real questions: Is this bind dangerous? Does it destabilize the scrum? Does this bind disadvantage the opponents?

thepercy
15-02-18, 16:02
Crotch bind is not a legal bind for a No 8.

Binding is in the definitions and states...

Binding: Grasping another player’s body firmly between the shoulders and the hips with the
whole arm in contact from hand to shoulder.

So a crotch bind isn't actually a bind under law. Law states bind with at least on arm, so a double crotch bind would be illegal.




"You need to bind with at least one arm on a locks body, double crotch bind is illegal, don't let me see you do it again please."
If he does it's an easy PK with a "I did warn you".

Following this logic, then the Lock to Prop "bind" cannot be of the crotch variety either?

Phil E
15-02-18, 16:02
Then locks are binding illegally and the standard #8 bind doesn't meet the criteria, either.


No they aren't RTFM

They are binding to each other with at least one arm.

thepercy
15-02-18, 16:02
No they aren't RTFM

They are binding to each other with at least one arm.

I did read the 'F' Laws.

19.7.c (2018)

The locks BIND with props in front of them and each other.

ChrisR
15-02-18, 16:02
OK, let's examine the binding definition:

Binding: Grasping another player’s body firmly between the shoulders and the hips with the whole arm in contact from hand to shoulder.


There are two parts. First part is "grasping" which requires the hand to be placed between the shoulders and hips.

Then there is the requirement for the arm to be in contact. In contact with what? With the teammate, not required to be "between the shoulders and hips".

I'll see your pedant and raise you a lawyer.

didds
15-02-18, 16:02
Crotch bind is not a legal bind for a No 8.

Binding is in the definitions and states...

Binding: Grasping another player’s body firmly between the shoulders and the hips with the
whole arm in contact from hand to shoulder.

"You need to bind with at least one arm on a locks body, double crotch bind is illegal, don't let me see you do it again please."
If he does it's an easy PK with a "I did warn you".

But then neither is the standard #8 bind fitting that bill either - it typically goes around the buttocks and grips around the waistline or upper leg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/JrjgMOAAzPo/hqdefault.jpg

didds

Phil E
15-02-18, 17:02
I did read the 'F' Laws..

I wasn't replying to you, that why I quoted ChrisR

I take your point about locks to prop not being technically a bind, but it's really simple.

Locks bind to each other and to a prop, the crotch bind by locks has been around since forever (except at junior level).

No 8 crotch bind is not normal practise, if it becomes normal practise (especially a double crotch bind) I guarantee it will be "clarified" as illegal. I have in the back of my mind that it used to be listed as illegal (OB may know).

So we tell him not to do it and he stops. No one will argue, no one will find it strange.

As an example of what's not said there was a clarification in 2002 that said "Locks in the scrum must have their heads between the hips of the hooker and the prop forward". Now there was never anything in law to state this, but it was obviously wrong and WR said so.

You can now both carry on discussing it, but without me, I will just get on with refereeing to obvious and expected levels.

Balones
15-02-18, 17:02
Crotch bind is not a legal bind for a No 8.

Binding is in the definitions and states...

Binding: Grasping another player’s body firmly between the shoulders and the hips with the
whole arm in contact from hand to shoulder.

So a crotch bind isn't actually a bind under law. Law states bind with at least on arm, so a double crotch bind would be illegal.




"You need to bind with at least one arm on a locks body, double crotch bind is illegal, don't let me see you do it again please."
If he does it's an easy PK with a "I did warn you".

My crotch is definitely between my shoulders and my hips. I’ve just checked!:smile:

crossref
15-02-18, 17:02
You can now both carry on discussing it, but without me, I will just get on with refereeing to obvious and expected levels.

I don't think it's at all obvious that a crotch bind by the #8 is illegal.

I'd ignore it.

- - - Updated - - -


My crotch is definitely between my shouldes and my hips. I’ve just checked!:smile:

if there's no photo, it didn't happen :)

didds
15-02-18, 17:02
I take your point about locks to prop not being technically a bind


but it doesn't have to be, because


d. All other players in the scrum bind on a lock’s body with at least one arm.

each lock binds on the other thus fulfilling the laws requirements.

what they do with the other one is up to them, there are no laws requirements in the standard full set of laws.

didds

didds
15-02-18, 17:02
My crotch is definitely between my shoulders and my hips. I’ve just checked!:smile:

your crotch is in a funny place then!

my crotch is at the same level as the top part of my thigh. My hip is above that. i can tell that cos my hip replacement operation scar is above it!

and when my replacement hip twinges and creaks it does so well above the level of my perineum :D

didds

tim White
15-02-18, 18:02
I've checked the 2018 Laws, 'Crotch' is not defined so therefore you are permitted to have it above your hips -albeit this is a little unusual and would cause me pain in normal circumstances.

thepercy
15-02-18, 18:02
but it doesn't have to be, because



each lock binds on the other thus fulfilling the laws requirements.

what they do with the other one is up to them, there are no laws requirements in the standard full set of laws.

didds

Locks binding requirements are set out in 19.7.C, they are not part of "all other players" because they are listed specifically.

Balones
15-02-18, 19:02
your crotch is in a funny place then!

my crotch is at the same level as the top part of my thigh. My hip is above that. i can tell that cos my hip replacement operation scar is above it!

and when my replacement hip twinges and creaks it does so well above the level of my perineum :D

didds

This is what this forum needs, a debate on where the hip starts and finishes. The joint is in the middle of the hip I would suggest. If no latitude is taken for the size of the whole hip then even the traditional ‘arms outside’ will not be classified as binding since the arms are below the hip joint.
Sympathies on your hip. I suggest you get well oiled!:smile:

Pinky
15-02-18, 19:02
I think that a crotch bind is normally on the front of the shorts and/or the jersey there, in most folks that will be above the hips. So I think I would allow a crotch bind by no8, but he is not allowed to move channel or let go and rebind in a different way. He could change one at a time, but is that really likely? What might he miss whilst mucking about with the bind, and it could come as an unwelcome (or welcome) surprise to the locks!

crossref
15-02-18, 21:02
personally I suffer from a low crotch. You wouldn't notice, but Mrs Crossref has. She's always talking about how low my crotch is

Rich_NL
16-02-18, 09:02
What are the advantages and dangers of a #8 crotch-binding? Why does it need managing?