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ChrisR
17-05-18, 11:05
I'm coaching an inexperienced youth side and at the post-tackle the BC may not get a deep set of the ball. This makes it vulnerable to getting jackled.

I'm considering coaching the first arriving BC support player to get over the ball then move it, by hand, to under his hind foot before any ops are there to contest. Yes, I know that technically they can/should be rucking with their feet but that can be destabilizing. They would not be picking it up, just pushing it back to the hind foot.

Thoughts on this? It seems to me that this would be OK prior to an op engaging.

Phil E
17-05-18, 11:05
I'm coaching an inexperienced youth side and at the post-tackle the BC may not get a deep set of the ball. This makes it vulnerable to getting jackled.

I'm considering coaching the first arriving BC support player to get over the ball then move it, by hand, to under his hind foot before any ops are there to contest. Yes, I know that technically they can/should be rucking with their feet but that can be destabilizing. They would not be picking it up, just pushing it back to the hind foot.

Thoughts on this? It seems to me that this would be OK prior to an op engaging.

If he's the first one there and no one is contesting why doesn't he just pick the bloody thing up and go?
The idea of a ruck is to contest/win possession. He already has possession so just play some rugby with it.

I suspect Didds may have something to say on this :biggrin:



NB: I'm not a coach!

ChrisR
17-05-18, 12:05
If he's the first one there and no one is contesting why doesn't he just pick the bloody thing up and go?
The idea of a ruck is to contest/win possession. He already has possession so just play some rugby with it.

I suspect Didds may have something to say on this :biggrin:

NB: I'm not a coach!

Expecting didds will pipe up. Setting the ruck is just one option for me. Offload in the tackle and pick up and go are others. Depends on ops scenario in front.

In watching this age group (this is the US and many are 1st/2nd yr players) I frequently see the ball poorly set and support players doing nothing to improve the situation so this would be an option.

It may not look right but I thinks it's legal per trials.

TheBFG
17-05-18, 14:05
If the support player is the "first one there" (on their feet) then there can't be a jackle, the second player (no BC team) would create a ruck and then hands can't be used. Or am i missing something?

ChrisR
17-05-18, 15:05
If the support player is the "first one there" (on their feet) then there can't be a jackle, the second player (no BC team) would create a ruck and then hands can't be used. Or am i missing something?

You are correct. If the BC support arrives first they are no longer vulnerable to jackling but . . .

. . if the ball isn't placed well back it's an invitation to be driven off via counter-ruck even if there's a BC support player in place. By moving the ball back it puts the ball in a more secure place.

My question is: Can the first arriving BC support player do it by hand? Does that make sense now?

SimonSmith
17-05-18, 18:05
I have to be honest, regardless of law:
If your players can't make a deep set, is this realistically within their skillset?

Taff
17-05-18, 22:05
If he's the first one there and no one is contesting why doesn't he just pick the bloody thing up and go?
I thought it. You said it. :biggrin:


If the support player is the "first one there" (on their feet) then there can't be a jackle...
Sorry, but you've lost me.

The "first one up" IS the Jackler surely. My understanding is that the first player at the breakdown can play the ball with his hands until an opponent is in physical contact with the player over the ball and the ball is on the ground ie when the old style Rucks were created. If the Jackler hasn't lifted the ball off the ground by the time the traditional Ruck is created it's too late for him to play it with his hands - and the only option now is to play it back with his feet.

ChrisR
18-05-18, 00:05
I have to be honest, regardless of law:
If your players can't make a deep set, is this realistically within their skillset?

At this age skill sets vary. First priority for the BC in the tackle, if the offload isn't there, is a deep set and that is being addressed.

However, you'll still get balls set or released short and my question seemed like a simple one:

If the BC support player is first to arrive at the tackle, and he choses to set the ruck, is he allowed to move the ball back with his hand prior to any opponent engaging.

It's just a question of law and it seems OK to me.

And Taff, I'm talking about the BC support player getting there first not the opponent jackling.

Rich_NL
18-05-18, 08:05
Legal (as a ref), but inadvisable (as a player).

Partly because his attention's on manoeuvring the ball not on incoming players, there's also a chance of a fumble, and there's also a chance (certainly in a non-"rugby country" and at youth level) that a referee will see it differently on the day and penalise you.

It's not a technique you'll want them to carry through and develop, whereas training support to stand deeply, well over the ball and training the tackled players to make good placements is a gift that keeps giving :)

didds
18-05-18, 08:05
If the Jackler hasn't lifted the ball off the ground by the time the traditional Ruck is created it's too late for him to play it with his hands - and the only option now is to play it back with his feet.

That isnt what I was told just a couple of weeks ago when i queried this for clarity here though. I was told here (sorry can't recall by whom) that once the jackler got hands on, whether lifted or not, if the ruck subsequently is formed theyc an continue with hands on.

I then asked if the ball is lifted after the ruck has formed does that now become a maul, but nobody answered that - possibly for good reason!

didds

Flish
18-05-18, 09:05
If your players can't make a deep set, is this realistically within their skillset?

This, I've been coaching kids about 6 years now (U12s next season), and won't pretend to be a grand master at it, but have learnt that the basics are always the best bet. Painting a picture of why deep set is good (ie a counter Rucker get easier access) should in time set the 'why' in their minds, and it becomes second nature (apart from the amusing occasions when they get confused and deep set towards the opposition instead!).

If you start coaching them to use hands in a ruck scenario (legal or not) then you risk confusion later on, same reason why we try to avoid teaching them to tackle above the waste or to go for the ball not the tackle - of course they ignore all of this too, but we can but try, stick to the basics and be patient

TheBFG
18-05-18, 10:05
I thought it. You said it. :biggrin:


Sorry, but you've lost me.

The "first one up" IS the Jackler surely. My understanding is that the first player at the breakdown can play the ball with his hands until an opponent is in physical contact with the player over the ball and the ball is on the ground ie when the old style Rucks were created. If the Jackler hasn't lifted the ball off the ground by the time the traditional Ruck is created it's too late for him to play it with his hands - and the only option now is to play it back with his feet.

in the OP the first man there is from the ball carrying team, so he wouldn't be jacklling. He's going to be "supporting" (latching on) to the BC?

menace
18-05-18, 11:05
At this age skill sets vary. First priority for the BC in the tackle, if the offload isn't there, is a deep set and that is being addressed.

However, you'll still get balls set or released short and my question seemed like a simple one:

If the BC support player is first to arrive at the tackle, and he choses to set the ruck, is he allowed to move the ball back with his hand prior to any opponent engaging.

It's just a question of law and it seems OK to me.

And Taff, I'm talking about the BC support player getting there first not the opponent jackling.

Among other reasons suggested by others..it seems a very risky tactic. Even at low levels the ruck forms relatively quickly and you risk that while your players is manipulating to move the ball with hands they are contacted by op to form a ruck...and to the referee it may well look like your player is winning the ruck by using hands! Looks like a duck! "PEEP"!

So this would only work if they had time to move the ball before an opp makes contact. And if they have time for that then they have time to pick up the ball or take a step over the ball to have it at hind foot (and position body).

Id just continue to work with and coach them to have low and strong body position over the ball (and latch) and win the contest when there is one. Take the pain now of losing a few rucks to teach good technique to win the ruck in the future! They will be better players in the future (and may be in the same season!)

ChrisR
18-05-18, 11:05
Thanx for all the coaching advice. Duly noted but let me try one last time for a laws response.

If, as a referee, a tackle occurs and the first arriving player is from the BC's team.

If, as he latches to the tackled player and before the would be jacklers engage, he moves the ball back by hand would you allow it?

And, if not, why not?

menace
18-05-18, 11:05
Thanx for all the coaching advice. Duly noted but let me try one last time for a laws response.

If, as a referee, a tackle occurs and the first arriving player is from the BC's team.

If, as he latches to the tackled player and before the would be jacklers engage, he moves the ball back by hand would you allow it?

Yes.
I have no reason at that time to penalise it.

Pinky
19-05-18, 01:05
That isnt what I was told just a couple of weeks ago when i queried this for clarity here though. I was told here (sorry can't recall by whom) that once the jackler got hands on, whether lifted or not, if the ruck subsequently is formed theyc an continue with hands on.

I then asked if the ball is lifted after the ruck has formed does that now become a maul, but nobody answered that - possibly for good reason!

didds

Didds, hands can be kept on once others arrive, but only if the jackler (or supporting player) stays on his feet and had hands on before others arrived.

If the ball is lifted after the ruck has formed, it has to be lifted by the jacker (or supporting player) who had hands on before the ruck formed and who is still on his feet, this does not, imo, create a maul. The ruck needs to end in accordance with law before youcan move on to another phase of play.

didds
19-05-18, 10:05
Didds, hands can be kept on once others arrive, but only if the jackler (or supporting player) stays on his feet and had hands on before others arrived.

If the ball is lifted after the ruck has formed, it has to be lifted by the jacker (or supporting player) who had hands on before the ruck formed and who is still on his feet, this does not, imo, create a maul. The ruck needs to end in accordance with law before youcan move on to another phase of play.

cheers Pinky - that was my understanding regarding the jackler/supporter. And the non-maul thing makes total sense to me. Tx for the confirmations.

didds

Taff
19-05-18, 16:05
... hands can be kept on once others arrive, but only if the jackler (or supporting player) stays on his feet and had hands on before others arrived.
That's not what we've been told. We were told that if the ball is still on the floor and the jackler has his hands on it, then he must release the ball when he is in physical contact with an opponent. In other words he has to be pretty quick to get his mits on the ball and lift it.


... If the ball is lifted after the ruck has formed, it has to be lifted by the jacker (or supporting player) who had hands on before the ruck formed and who is still on his feet, this does not, imo create a maul. The ruck needs to end in accordance with law before you can move on to another phase of play.
But a ruck can now become a maul and vice versa - provided the proper criteria are met. I'm sure clarifications have made this clear. :chin:

OB..
19-05-18, 16:05
That's not what we've been told. We were told that if the ball is still on the floor and the jackler has his hands on it, then he must release the ball when he is in physical contact with an opponent. In other words he has to be pretty quick to get his mits on the ball and lift it.15.11 Once a ruck has formed, no player may handle the ball unless they were able to get their hands on the ball before the ruck formed and stay on their feet.
That makes no mention of needing to lift the ball.

It does leave unclear whether or not lifting the ball after the ruck forms then turns it into a maul. If not, then nobody else can go for the ball and the contest is effectively over



But a ruck can now become a maul and vice versa - provided the proper criteria are met. I'm sure clarifications have made this clear. :chin:That would seem to make sense.

Pinky
20-05-18, 01:05
But a ruck can now become a maul and vice versa - provided the proper criteria are met. I'm sure clarifications have made this clear. :chin:

Taff, a maul can become a ruck if the ball is on the floor as that ends the maul and if there are players closing round the ball on the floor that is a ruck. I don't think it can happen the other way as picking the ball up legally does not end the ruck, so it is still a ruck.

Taff
20-05-18, 07:05
Taff, a maul can become a ruck if the ball is on the floor as that ends the maul and if there are players closing round the ball on the floor that is a ruck. I don't think it can happen the other way as picking the ball up legally does not end the ruck, so it is still a ruck.
Sorry Pinky, but I think a ruck can become a maul.

If a jackler manages to lift the ball off the ground legally and all the other criteria for a maul are met (ball carrier on his feet and 2 opposing players bound on) surely it wouldn't make sense to treat it as a ruck when we are looking at a clear maul.

I haven't got them to hand, but I'm pretty sure there has been a clarification on this.

ChrisR
20-05-18, 10:05
Sorry Pinky, but I think a ruck can become a maul.

If a jackler manages to lift the ball off the ground legally and all the other criteria for a maul are met (ball carrier on his feet and 2 opposing players bound on) surely it wouldn't make sense to treat it as a ruck when we are looking at a clear maul.

I haven't got them to hand, but I'm pretty sure there has been a clarification on this.

Just for the record this doesn't constitute a maul.

VM75
20-05-18, 17:05
Imo the 1st arriving player [after a completed tackle] has a decision to make.

does he.....
a] want to pick up the ball, & continue (open play with no new offside lines created] or
b] does he want to park himself over the ball and create a 'mono ruck' & therefore establish new offside lines
forming a ruck & then picking the ball up seems to be 'cake & eat it' to me

unless the game wants to allow mono-rucker an the exception to normal 'handling' law? - in which case it needs to specify the same.

If it does, then it would have to specify that doing so ends the mono-ruck, open play is now operational, & from that open play status a maul can now be formed.

Taff
20-05-18, 22:05
Just for the record this doesn't constitute a maul.
Sorry, bad wording on my part.

When I said "opposing player" I didn't mean 2 players from the opposing team - I meant 1 player from each team ie opposing each other.